Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES Date: October 5, 2018 Guest: Mazie Hirono, Sherrilyn Ifill, Nancy Gertner; Alexandria Ocasio- Cortez, Michelle Goldberg, Tim Kaine, Irin Carmon, Danielle Moodie-Mills
CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: But also because the bad advice of those who kept silent and the wit of backers who knew not to ask too much. That`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us. "ALL IN" with Chris Hayes starts right now.
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CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Tonight on ALL IN.
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AMERICAN CROWD: Vote no!
HAYES: Republicans have the votes to confirm Brett Kavanaugh.
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: We`re going to plow right through it.
HAYES: Tonight, the backlash to Manchin, Flake, and Collins with Senator Mazie Hirono.
AMERICAN CROWD: Shame! Shame! Shame! Shame! Shame!
HAYES: The lasting damage to the Supreme Court push Sherrilyn Ifill and Nancy Gertner.
SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D), CALIFORNIA: This was not a search for the truth.
HAYES: The political fallout for November and beyond with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and how we move forward after a nightmare week for survivors.
CHRISTINE BLASEY FORD: Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter.
HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.
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HAYES: Good evening from New York I`m Chris Hayes. Well, in the words of Mitch McConnell, they plowed right through ignoring testimony from Christine Blasey for that even they themselves said was credible and compelling as well as evidence that Brett Kavanaugh repeatedly lied under oath, senators from the party of Trump today moved to give Kavanaugh a lifetime appointment on the Supreme Court. The final vote is expected tomorrow but the fight appears to be over. One Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska voted no today, a decision she said she made at the last minute after spending yesterday meeting with sexual assault survivors.
But Democrat Joe Manchin, as well as Republicans Jeff Flake and Susan Collins all, said they were voting yes. Collins gave a nearly 45-minute speech to announce her decision although it was clear from the first 30 seconds she had been a yes all along. In her speech she misrepresented some facts, criticized protesters, and like almost every other Republican said she wanted you to know, she believed Dr. Basey Ford although you know, not really. The question now is what Republicans have unleashed.
Protesters swarmed at the Capitol again today, many of them trying to get senators to listen to harrowing stories of sexual assault. They chanted shame at Joe Manchin as he defended his decision to vote yes and cried as they listened to Susan Collins announced her decision. A fund to support whoever runs against Collins in 2020 if she if she backed Kavanaugh flew past the $2 million mark as Collins spoke. The man we elect the President, of course, said the women telling their stories are surviving sexual assaults are all lying calling them paid professionals paid for by George Soros which again is the mainstream view of Susan Collins Republican Party.
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MARTHA MACCALLUM, HOST, FOX NEWS CHANNEL: Do you believe George Soros is behind all of this paying these people to get you and your colleagues in elevators or wherever they can get in your face?
SEN. CHUCK GRASSLEY (R-IA), CHAIRMAN, SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: I tend to believe it. I believe it fits in his attack mode that he has.
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HAYES: There is no evidence for that, we should note. Chuck Grassley, Susan Collins, Donald Trump, Joe Manchin all have the same message today. Either we don`t believe you or we believe you and we don`t care. The midterm elections are now 32 days away and the stakes could not be more crystal clear. With me now Senator Mazie Hirono of Hawaii a Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee, she voted no today. Your reaction, Senator, to what happened tonight.
SEN. MAZIE HIRONO (D), HAWAII: Well, I was particularly disappointed with Senator Collins because she is a person who has said that she`s very concerned about women`s reproductive rights and that she cited to a case but she didn`t name where Judge Kavanaugh at bottom said Catholic Church, you folks you know, can deny contraceptive coverage to your employees because it isn`t too much but you don`t have to file a two-page form. And interestingly she did not cite to a much more relevant case in which Judge Kavanaugh was the dissenter. It was just the Garza case wherein he said bottom line, a 17-year-old girl who should have been able to have an abortion. He dissented from that right.
That is a much more relevant case and for any of us at this point to think that any of these nominees who could who come before us and say Roe v Wade a settled law, that is just -- you know, they don`t have to overturn Roe v Wade. States like Texas, Louisiana are very busy adopting all kinds of laws that would limit our ministry to choose and these cases, these laws will be challenged, go up to the Supreme Court and I fully expect Judge Kavanaugh decide with these limiting law. So you don`t have to repeal Roe v Wade. You can pretty much make it a novelty.
So I was very disappointed with Senator Collins but I`m proud of the fact that of my other friends Joe Donnelly and Claire McCaskill, clearly Lisa Murkowski and Heidi Heitkamp voted their conscience and listened to their people into the cries of the women who by the way, to think that George Soros hired thousands of women, my god what is this some kind of a conspiracy dream that they have? Give me a break.
HAYES: Let me ask you this. A few weeks ago, a sort of prominent conservative legal thinker think-tank guy named Ed Whelan had this entire Twitter thread where he appeared to in a wildly defamatory fashion point the finger at another person for the assault that Dr. Ford said she suffered. He then had to take it down, he had to apologize, he was ridiculed, it was embarrassing, it was terrible, everyone agreed that was terrible. Two weeks later, that appears to be the mainstream position of the Republican caucus including Susan Collins and others that someone assaulted Dr. Ford, she just doesn`t correctly remember who it was. Do you think -- what do you think of that?
HIRONO: I think that that is telegraphing to America that the Republicans can`t deal fairly with sexual -- the issue of sexual assault and the survivors and we`re saying, they are saying to Dr. Ford and all those in her shoes of which are thousands that one, we don`t want to hear from you, two if we have to hear from you we`re going to rig it so that there`s no FBI investigation and we`re not going to call any other witnesses. This is what we`re telegraphing, the Republicans are telegraphy and I think it`s a terrible message. And you know, when the President Trump and his son say things such as all the men in this country should be really afraid, this is what men who are threaten say you know, what are they afraid of.
If they treat women with respect, do not sexually harass them, or my goodness engage and sexual assault, they have nothing to worry about because guess what, all you men out there we women don`t sit around try to cook up these kinds of stories about you. This is this is a tremendous fear and mistrust of women that we have to overcome in this country. But sadly that is not what the Senate did, the Senate Republicans did and dealing with Dr. Fords credible reports.
HAYES: Senator Chuck Grassley who`s the Chair of the Committee on which you serve was asked why there weren`t more women on that committee I think particularly for the Republican side. He said the committee has a lot of work. You got to remember, we got an executive meeting every Thursday, maybe they don`t want to do it. Later his spokesperson somewhat frenetically and with great panic tried to walk that back. What do you think of that?
HIRONO: I think that is one of the more ridiculous things that Chuck Grassley has said and it just goes to show, is this where the Republicans are that they think that women can`t to engage in hard work, that we can`t do more than you know, cook and clean and all that? Are you kidding? We, women, have had to do all this stuff for eons and for him to say what he did just goes to show how out of touch and sadly clueless he is.
HAYES: How do you think finally he has conducted this entire affair?
HIRONO: This entire hearing for Judge Kavanaugh has not been normal because for one thing, they`re just rushing this like crazy. They wanted to get him on the court by the October term so that it could be the fifth vote on so many issues that are going to affect all of our lives so that`s that was all a rush job. Two, it`s not normal that we wouldn`t have access to the thousands and thousands of documents that we normally would have access to regarding Judge Kavanaugh. Three, when we had a hearing you know, of a credible report by Dr. Kavanaugh -- Dr. Ford, that not to call any other witnesses, not to have an FBI investigation, nothing normal about how this whole process was handled.
For the life of me, what we are telegraphing something very, very damaging about the Senate, the Judiciary Committee`s operations, and of course should Judge Kavanaugh get on the Supreme Court which is where he`s heading, we`re going to send yet another person with a huge cloud over his head to the Supreme Court. It`s bad enough we send one person like that and I think it affects the credibility of the Supreme Court. And let`s not forget that he just ripped the veil of objectivity by showing us what a partisan operative he`s going to be. He is.
HAYES: Senator Mazie Hirono, thank you for being with me.
HIRONO: Sure.
HAYES: Joining me now NBC National Political Reporter Heidi Przybyla who is out tonight with an exclusive report detailing how Kavanaugh`s Yale classmates were ignored by the FBI in its latest investigation and includes some sort of remarkable texts that you acquired. Talk me through the story, Heidi.
HEIDI PRZYBYLA, NBC NEWS NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER: Right. Chris, well, this just shows how the issue of whether this was a complete investigation is going to linger for a long time. Here you have basically electronic information from people who wanted to come forward to the FBI, wanted to come forward to the Judiciary Committee being turned away. And these text messages that NBC obtained exclusively show here that Brett Kavanaugh was actually advising one of those people who Debbie Ramirez identified as an eyewitness. And if you -- I think you have the text message there, but if you put it up you will see that this eyewitness who we`ve confirmed was one of the people that Debbie Ramirez identified as in the room is lashing out and saying how could you tell anybody that I was talking to Brett Kavanaugh in advance of this New Yorker story.
And so what does this tell us, Chris, it just tells us that at this moment when we don`t even know if the eyewitnesses that Debbie Ramirez identified, in this case, were interviewed, this would have been critical information to have in front of the FBI in order to question those people and that this is something that is going to continue to haunt this nomination.
HAYES: And let me just -- just to put up those text again, so part of the story here is just that an intermediary here and this is a person who`s texting with the person that you have the text from or you -- from whom you acquired them or I don`t know if you got them from them, but they`re the recipient. Don`t effing tell people Brett got in touch me. This is someone panicking because he had communicated that in advance of the New Yorker story being published, Kavanaugh had reached out attempting to tamp down the story. Do I have that right?
PRZYBYLA: You have that exactly right. And that is just one text, Chris. If you go to NBCNews.com you will see that there is a theme, a thread that runs through these texts that NBC obtained from two different women former classmates, some of them -- one of them, for instance, is a misfire but what -- the thread that you see that runs through it is questions from these women who got these -- were the recipients of these text message as to whether there was "anticipatory narrative about Debbie Ramirez and her story coming out as early as July."
That was months in advance of when the story about Debbie came out. One part for instance that`s really telling is that days after Christine Blasey Ford contacted the Washington Post anonymously, she was an anonymous tipper at that point, days after that the eyewitnesses who are identified by Debbie Ramirez were trying to get a photograph of Debbie in them and to send it to the post so what was that about. These are questions, they`re merely questions the women made clear. You know, they`re not drawing any conclusions, but they`re questions that were never asked, never answered.
HAYES: All right, Heidi Przybyla, great reporting, eye-opening. Thank you very much. I want to bring in Sherrilyn Ifill, President, and Director- Counsel of the NAACP Legal Defense Fund and Nancy Gertner a Retired Federal Judge, court judge from the U.S. District of Massachusetts. And Nancy, maybe I`ll start with you because you had expressed a concern that was then echoed after the last time we spoke by justice -- former Justice John Paul Stevens and others, retired federal judges who call themselves conservatives about the temperament on this play from Brett Kavanaugh on Thursday, the wildly partisan fashion in which he conducted himself. He wrote a sort of apology although not really an apology in The Wall Street Journal. I wonder if that assuaged you and how you`re feeling about his impending confirmation.
NANCY GERTNER, RETIRED FEDERAL JUDGE: I`ve never seen a performance of a judge that one could say -- a proposed candidate that one could say was disqualifying in the way that Judge Kavanaugh`s performance was. I mean it was not ambiguous. The notion that he shouted out the Clintons, that he talked about you know left-wing funders, a conspiracy. I think I mentioned in the column I wrote that when I first -- I was listening to this on the radio, when I first heard him I thought he was a talk-show host. I couldn`t believe that this was a judge applying for this position.
The cannons make clear that it`s not just actual bias but it`s the appearance of impartiality that a judge might have and that was a performance that was unmasked. And what I worried about was that it was actually President Trump`s the idea of what a judge should be as opposed to what a judge should be. And in The Wall Street Journal, that was already extraordinary that he felt the need to write an op-ed and the op-ed was so fundamentally disingenuous.
He said that Thursday`s performance was because he was emotional and acting as a dad and a husband and a father. That performance on Thursday was not spontaneous. He wrote out that talk.
HAYES: Correct.
GERTNER: So the notion that you were swept away for -- by emotion doesn`t make any sense. The problem is you can`t unring that bell. He was unmasked in a way that I thought fundamentally disqualified him from going forward.
HAYES: Sherrilyn, Susan Collins at a long section in her quite lengthy speech today about presumption of innocence, it`s a theme that Mitch McConnell returned to, and I suppose the upside for you as someone who works the Legal Defense Fund that you have a bunch of new allies in ending cash bail and reforming the criminal justice system with functions daily on a presumption of guilt, so that`s the good news.
SHERRILYN IFILL, PRESIDENT AND DIRECTOR-COUNSEL, NAACP LEGAL DEFENSE FUND: Yes, that`s the good news. The bad news is that any one of the clients that we represent who did what Judge Kavanaugh has done, I think it`s been now well documented that Judge Kavanaugh under oath testified before the committee not just in the -- in the day that Dr. Blasey Ford testified but also in his original hearing, and also in 2006 that suggests that he has serious credibility problems, that he did not tell the truth under oath about things big and small whether it`s about judicial nominees that he says he wasn`t involved with, that he was involved with, whether it`s about whether he received stolen e-mails from the Democrats in -- when he worked for the White House or whether it`s what Ranate alumnus means.
We saw that too. 4We shouldn`t forget that when he testified before the committee the second time, it wasn`t just the intemperance, it wasn`t just the brutality of his performance, but it also was apparent to anybody watching it that there were moments in which he was not telling the truth about things that he didn`t think it was necessary to tell the truth about. So it`s not just about the legitimacy of the court, it`s our entire justice system, the justice system comes down hard on the kinds of people that I represent. Every inference is decided against them.
Their credibility about things big and small is always on the line. When they are impeached, it matters and yet we have now seen someone sit who wants to be elevated to the highest court in the land and who`s a sitting D.C. Circuit Court Judge play fast and loose with the truth and have a presentational style that was disrespectful and brutal in a tribunal, not something any of the people that I represent could get away with.
So in some ways it`s really critical to remember what this unmasked today, not just him but by going forward, by having Susan Collins make that presentation. We will see what the vote is tomorrow. I don`t give up to the bitter end. But if he is placed on the Supreme Court, it demonstrates that our legal system is willing to tolerate a certain kind of behavior from certain kinds of people. Like he said, he went to Yale. You know, he was first in his class at Georgetown Prep. He worked his butt off. His story about his entitlement entitled him to play fast and loose and drive through the guardrails of our justice system that come down so hard on people who are marginalized and people who have no voice. And that`s part of the fallout that we`re going to see from today as well.
HAYES: Nancy, there was another --
GERTNER: And --
HAYES: Yes, please.
GERTNER: Well -- and if any -- if any of the people who before me that I sentenced, any of the defendants that I sentenced to substantial time had lived the kind of life that he had lived, they would have had records as long as his arm. There`s no question about that.
HAYES: And not only that. Not only that on this temperament question, Sherrilyn, to this sort of emotional -- I mean, there are people who are innocent of the charges against them in courts across the country every day and they are expected whether there are 17 years old, whether they`re people in the grips of substance abuse, whether they`re you know, people that have been through lots of trauma, they`re expected to compose himself and not lash out in that courtroom no matter what. You get to do what Brett Kavanaugh did and that`s expected of everyone from a juvenile --
IFILL: That`s right.
HAYES: -- perpetrator to anyone else.
IFILL: There`s a wonderful study about this about the presentational style of African Americans in rent court in Baltimore and the way in which the presentational style is held against individuals who are at risk of being evicted from their apartments. There is a whole constraint that the system puts on you no matter what pressure you`re under that you have to present yourself in a way that is calm and that shows respect for the court. That was not necessary for Brett Kavanaugh. He couldn`t.
And the Wall Street Journal op-ed actually was not an apology, it was a justification, it was an explanation that I get to do it because I feel that I was wrongly accused. You know how many people are wrongly accused in our justice system and he thought that that was good enough. I get to present myself and he actually thought it was something good. He described himself as passionate. You know, when you start using those words that I was forceful and passionate and you describe yourself in that way, you think that you did a good thing.
And so I don`t think this -- you can`t unring this bell. We can`t unsee what we saw and there are going to be consequences to that in terms of how people think about our justice system, how they think about the Supreme Court, how they think about what the rules are for who has to obey the rules that are set forth and who doesn`t.
HAYES: All right, Sherrilyn Ifill and Judge Nancy Gertner, thank you both.
IFILL: Thank you, Chris.
GERTNER: Thank you.
HAYES: Unless something changes, Brett Kavanaugh will likely be confirmed at the Supreme Court exactly one month before voters show up to the polls for the midterm election. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is here to talk about that next.
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MCCONNELL: I`m not suggesting we`re the victims here, Mr. President but I want to make it clear to these people who are chasing my members around the hall here are harassing them at the airports, are going to their homes, we`ll not be intimidated by these people.
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HAYES: Mitch McConnell might think that women, finding their voices and using their First Amendment right to petition the government is intimidation. But come next year he could gain a Democratic colleague at least in the House who herself is a history direct action. New York Democrat Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez stunned the political establishment this year by winning a primary over Congressman Joe Crowley, part of Democratic House leadership. She`s on the ballot for Congress November and she joins me now. How are you?
ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D), CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE, NEW YORK: Hi! I`m well. How are you?
HAYES: How are you feeling today?
CORTEZ: Well, frustrated, upset, disappointed, but I`m also fired up. I think that we`re going to be really committing very hard not just to organizing through November but also organizing through the next four, six years I think and we really just need to take this country and bring it back to the basics of democracy.
HAYES: I want to -- I want to -- this was a theme today from Republicans about all these protesters there which to me you know, I sort of feel like yelling at an elected representative is literally definition of a free society in like a literal set. Like that`s what a free society look. You can yell at someone in power, they can`t like come to your house and take you away.
CORTEZ: Yes, yes.
HAYES: But they didn`t like it so. I want to play you, Chuck Grassley, talking about mob rule and get your response. Take a listen.
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GRASSLEY: They have encouraged mob rule. When you hear things about get in their face, bother people at every restaurant where you can find a cabinet member, these are coming from public service that are setting example of civility in American society and it`s been made worse by what has happened to Judge Kavanaugh. I hope we can say no to mob rule by voting to confirm Judge Kavanaugh.
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HAYES: No to mob rule.
CORTEZ: Well, first of all, American democracy is built by the people, for the people, it is our attempt at Americans pursuing self-governance. But you know, I think if a lot of these Republican senators are upset at the reaction that`s going on, maybe they should stop running away from their town halls, maybe they should visit their constituents, maybe they should pick up the phone, maybe they should answer our e-mails. But because they are running away from the basic tenets of democracy, our job is not to preside over our communities, our job is to listen to our communities. Our job is to serve our communities.
And we are -- when we are not serving our communities by making sure that we are vetting justices, that we are pursuing due process, that we are listening to sexual assault survivors in our communities then we aren`t doing our job. And these folks are not doing their job. How are you going to get along with these people in Washington? I mean I think you`re going to win. That`s a prediction --
CORTEZ: Thank you.
HAYES: I don`t know. I mean, you know, you never -- until the bell rings but you`re in a very heavily Democratic district. You`re going there -- I mean, you`re going in there`s time where people talked about how it`s broken and it`s so polarized, both of which I think are true and you`re also coming really as an outsider at a moment where I think people like we`re watching what happened today and want to storm the gates and you`re going to actually do that. So what`s your plan?`
CORTEZ: Well, I think a lot of it has to do with changing our strategy around governance. You know, there`s a lot of inside baseball and inside the beltway, as you know, you always hear that term thrown around but there are very few organizers in Congress and I do think that organizers operate differently. It`s a some kind of strategy. And what it is it`s really about organizing and really thinking about that word organizing, segmenting people, being strategic in their actions in really bringing together a cohesive strategy, of putting pressure on the chamber instead of only focusing on the pressures inside the chamber.
HAYES: That`s really interesting thought. You know, organizing also one of the things I think about organizing too is it`s -- a lot of it`s about listening and keeping an open mind, right? I mean, you`re going to have decisions that you`re going to have to encounter with or constituents might have different politics in it, the folks you represent.
CORTEZ: Yes. Yes, absolutely. And I think that`s -- that is part of why we`ve been so successful in the district is because people understand that our campaign and my candidacy has a very specific point of view but also in part -- actually largely in part because I do not take any corporate lobbyist money, they know that I`m working for them. They know that they can call my office and pick up the phone and say hey you know, this is something that we disagree with and that I have an obligation to listen to my community.
HAYES: You`ve done -- you`ve done some interesting stuff in terms of who you`re listening to and that`s I think the real question right now, right? Like who`s Congress listening to. You saw all these survivors telling their stories. You`ve done stuff with immigrants who are undocumented and I think with survivors as well. In your district, what is that been like?
CORTEZ: Well, you know, in this -- this political moment is so unique and sometimes I feel like I have this job of being something of a social worker or even a therapist in my district because this period has been so -- has been so re-traumatizing for so many folks. And especially in a country where we do not have reliable access to health care, let alone affordable health care, people --
HAYES: Let alone mental health care, good God.
CORTEZ: Let alone mental health care. This has been a very difficult time for immigrants, for women, for survivors, for people will just care about the health of American democracy. It`s very stressful. And so that listening defuses a lot of the tensions in our communities and it`s a form of active work beyond just legislation or beyond just policymaking. It`s really getting hands deep and our hands dirty in our communities in saying -- and finding the issues that we need to solve instead of just waiting for them to wash up on our door.
And I think that really what we`re seeing here with Kavanaugh, with all of this stuff is just a complete abdication of responsibility -- of our responsibility as representatives. When you are -- when you are at the point where you are blaming your own constituents and calling your own constituents a mob, that is the exact opposite of being a representative. That is the exact opposite of being a public servant and that tells me that those folks anybody regardless of your party if you have that attitude you got to go.
HAYES: Finally, there`s a new issue of Vanity Fair out that has you on the cover. That`s you. I`m trying to think of the last person from the Bronx on the Vanity Fair cover was, there`s probably been a minute.
CORTEZ: Yes, it probably has. I mean, who knows. I think J-Lo was there.
HAYES: I actually was going to say probably -- I had to nominate who -- you know what, maybe Lynn -- no, no --
CORTEZ: Neil deGrasse Tyson.
HAYES: Neil deGrasse Tyson maybe, yes. I think he was probably the most likely. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, it`s always a pleasure to come by. Thank you very much.
CORTEZ: Thank you. Thank you so much.
HAYES: Senate majority leader is on the brink of successfully confirming Donald Trump`s second Supreme Court justice. Senator Tim Kaine on the ramifications of what`s happening next.
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HAYES: Right before Senator Susan Collins took the floor today, her Democratic colleague Tim Kaine suggested the most powerful single chamber legislative body in the world cannot be trusted when it comes to supporting survivors of sexual assault.
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SEN. TIM KAINE, (D) VIRGINIA: People have suffered from sexual assault or harassment are watching to see how the senate responds to these serious charges. And what do they see? By moving forward to a vote anyway the unmistakable message to survivors is the Senate does not take allegations of sexual assault seriously.
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HAYES: Joining me now is Senator Tim Kaine, Democrat from Virginia.
Senator, there were a lot of people -- Democrats, not Democrats, independents, who were very much opposed to Brett Kavanaugh being nominated and to him being confirmed who are feeling angry and hurt and beside themselves.
How do you feel? What`s your message to them?
KAINE: Well, I`m very, very depressed about it. I really am. I -- I waited until after the judiciary committee hearing and I interviewed Judge Kavanaugh personally, watched the hearing to decide after I had read his opinions. I announced my opposition for two reasons, that he was too -- frankly too deferential to the executive. I think he won`t hold the president accountable. And I was worried about whether he would uphold precedent.
But then when Dr. Ford came forward with her allegations, suddenly it was a real test of the senate, would we take an allegation, a serious allegation of sexual assault with significant corroboration, would we take it seriously or not?
And the senate, I don`t think, took it seriously. I`m reminded of that -- one of my favorite movies Chinatown when they asked the detective who used to be a detective back in Chinatown, what did you do there? He said as little as possible.
And that`s basically what the GOP majority did, the investigation was a sham. They interviewed a handful of witnesses and decided not to talk to, ignored dozens of witnesses who had been proffered by Dr. Ford and Ms. Ramirez. and I think the message sent by this vote to people, especially those who suffered or are suffering sexual assault is extremely negative. And the only way we`re going to overcome that is we have to be energized and insist that we want something different out of the Senate and we want something different out of the Supreme Court.
HAYES: Were you or others in your caucus in conversation with Joe Manchin and Heidi Heitkamp? Heidi Heitkamp camp announcing that she was a no, Joe Manchin saying that he was a yes today about this vote? And what were those conversations like?
KAINE: Well, Chris, I`m going to be a little -- you know, when you have one on one conversations you don`t necessarily just go out and spill them all. But yes, look...
HAYES: You can just tell me. No one will hear.
KAINE: I`ve talked to Heidi, I`ve talked to Joe. I talked to Susan Collins. I talked to Jeff Flake over the course of the last few weeks, talked to all of them. These are people I work carefully with, traded texts or emails, handed them court opinions that I thought that they should read. Everybody makes up their own mind.
But no, we were -- we really were holding out hope today. And as you remember, even after somebody votes for cloture, they can still vote no on passes. John McCain did that a year plus ago on the Affordable Care Act repeal. But it looks like today everybody`s locked into their positions.
And again, I had reasons for coming out against Judge Kavanaugh a while back. But I think that the sexual assault allegations are so important, about 180 individuals, men and women from Virginia, reached out to me in the last two weeks to say I`ve never told anybody this story, but I`m telling you now. Chris, some of these were people that I know, that I`ve known for decades who had never shared their story of sexual assault. Some were young. Some were 70 or 80-year-olds. And they are so pained at the notion that the senate would not take them seriously.
And now the Supreme Court may not take them seriously. It`s like kicking somebody when they`re down. And that`s why we have to be both mourn the lack of seriousness in this senate in this issue, but also be super energized and just demanding. We`ve got to have a different senate who will take these kinds of charges seriously.
HAYES: You know, in my conversations off the record with activists and some of the people around the interest groups that are very focused on the court, there`s a lot of frustration, they felt, that Democrats weren`t fighting hard enough, they weren`t committed enough to fighting this seat. The math is the math obviously. There`s only so much you can do. But what do you say to those people who say you didn`t fight hard enough. Chuck Schumer didn`t rally people enough and this was a failure on the Democrats?
KAINE: Well, look, I think there`s a lot of times people want to blame ourselves when we stood strong on this. We didn`t get every Democratic vote, but we stood very strong and stood up both against Judge Kavanaugh`s jurisprudential philosophy and then when the sexual assault allegations came out, you know, then we stood strong on that.
And look, on the other side they hope that these voters will blame Democrats and be unenergized going in. But the fact is, as a minority, Chris, and I think you know this, math is math, we wish it were different. We wish we had the majority. We wish we could stop a GOP that was majority that was determined to ignore serious allegations of sexual assault, but wishing it was the case is not going to make it happen. The only thing that`s going to make it happen is turning out and voting and putting a different senate in. And in 32 days, we`ve got an opportunity to put in a senate that`s majority Democrat where we can stop this kind of foolishness from happening and send a different message to people who have suffered or are suffering under sexual assault.
HAYES: All right. Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia, many thanks for your time tonight.
KAINE: Absolutely.
HAYES: It has been one of the more painful and wrenching periods in politics in recent memory. And we`ll try to process some of what`s happened next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t you wave your hand at me. I waved my hand at you.
SEN. ORRIN HATCH, (R) UTAH: When you grow up...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I grow up!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When we grow?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How dare you talk to women that way.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Senator Collins, please vote no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sergeant...
CROWD: Vote no. Vote no. (inaudible).
CROWD: Shame, shame, shame, shame, shame, shame, shame.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: The pain and the outrage is real and it`s raw and it is only beginning to be processed personally, socially, and politically.
Michelle Goldberg, Danielle Moodie-Mills, and Irin Carmon join me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HAYES: Well, it`s been an absolutely wrenching week. The intersection of American public life, the most intimate details of hidden raw pain has made this week one of the most profound and revelatory in recent history I`d like to talk about with some people I really respect.
With me are Michelle Goldberg, op-ed columnist for The New York Times, Danielle Moody-Mills, host of Woke AF on Sirius/XM, and Irin Carmon, journalist and co-author of "Notorious RGB: The Life and Times of Ruth Bader Ginesburg."
Well, what do you think?
MICHELLE GOLDBERG, NEW YORK TIMES: It`s bad. I mean, it`s been -- it`s been a terrible week and it`s almost kind of even more excruciating that they dragged it out an extra week, that there was this semblance...
HAYES: Right, last week about the sort of...
GOLDBERG: Right, where it seemed as if they really were making this concession to decency and they really were going to kind of respect the process. And the fact that they had this sham investigation that didn`t even interview the principles, didn`t even interview Christine Blasey Ford and Brett Kavanaugh, never mind the 20-something witnesses that Deborah Ramirez gave them.
I mean, in a way it just is kind of an extra twist of the knife, right, that for a moment you thought that this process might not be completely irredeemable, but this is Trump`s America and it was.
HAYES: I also thought that the optics today were so interesting. This was the image yesterday, the GOP senators at the press conference, this is them talking there on the left. And it didn`t look great. Today when Susan Collins had her big moment, it was like she made sure that two Republican women senators were behind her, even though those are not the seats they usually -- like this is all done for a reason.
IRIN CARMON, AUTHOR, "NOTORIOUS RGB": They`re not on the Judiciary Committee.
HAYES: No, they`re not on the Judiciary Committee, because someone give them the note about the kind of like Handmaid`s Tale vibe they were getting optically from yesterday`s...
CARMON: You know, Chris, even in the Handmaid`s Tale there are Aunt Lydia`s and there are whatever the wife`s names are, right. There are women who have always benefited from these systems, in particular white women, 53 percent, we all know that number, of the women who voted for Trump and I keep thinking the phrase that I keep hearing in my head over and over again is the Yale Law School professor has this essay about preservation through transformation. And it`s about how old orders of power continue to reconstitute themselves even as things change around them, right?
So now there`s this expectation that you don`t want to be only the party of old white men, but also old white men are the victims. Now there`s this notion that we want to have due process, but due process is only owed to Brett Kavanaughs of the world and not the young black boys of the world.
Now, we have this notion that we want to listen to women, but only women who tell us things that reinforce the order that we already want to have established. That`s where Susan Collins comes in.
HAYES: It`s such a great point.
Also the crazy corner they backed themselves into of we also want to believe survivors. And everyone is saying I believe something happened to her, she`s just wrong about...
CARMON: She`s just wrong about it.
And if I could just say one thing about it, to me, I wrote about this in New York Magazine, that really reminds me of the logic of the anti-abortion movement, which is to say don`t worry your pretty little head you don`t know your own mind, I feel bad for you that you think you want an abortion. You`re the victim of the abortionist, but I`m not going to listen to you tell the truth about your own life.
DANIELLE MOODY-MILLS, HOST WOKE AF: The reality is that we put so much faith in Senator Collins. We always like to believe that at the end of this nightmare that some -- that justice is going to prevail, that something good is going to come out of it. And I said this on election night, and I`ll say it again, I`m not putting my faith in old, white conservative women ever again, that`s like accepting a dinner invitation from Hannibal Lector and thinking that it`s sincere. It`s not, right.
Like, let`s be clear about whose side they are always going to be on, which is white men, right. And so in this moment, we are reminded, again, of where we sit and where we stand. And the idea is that there`s no one to have faith in, but ourselves in November to show up at the polls and do what is necessary.
HAYES: Yeah.
To me it`s also the fact that the Republican -- there are two coalitions in American life. And everyone has chosen sides who is in Washington about which one they`re part of. Like, Susan Collins is in the political coalition of Donald Trump, that`s -- and that political coalition, George W. Bush supported Brett Kavanaugh after the allegations. George H.W. Bush tweeted today cheering on Susan Collins, like their ride or die. I mean...
GOLDBERG: And honestly, one of the things that is most kind of shaken me is how much this episode has solidified that coalition.
HAYES: Yes.
GOLDBERG: The extent to which all these people who maybe were uneasy about Trump, something about the spectacle of Brett Kavanaugh kind of almost being derailed from his life`s ambition because of the words of a couple of women or because, you know, something about the idea that he kind of...
HAYES: Stolen from him.
GOLDBERG: That he`s entitled to this Supreme Court seat, and that anything short of reasonable doubt, beyond reasonable doubt, is not an excuse to take this prize that he has worked his tail off to achieve away from him. I mean, it`s just been amazing the deeply felt anger.
HAYES: Totally.
GOLDBERG: That you see on the right among people who have been skeptical of Trump, but who are now all in, and who like...
MOODY-MILLS: They`re all in around the white rage, like that`s what this is. When you saw Brett Kavanaugh`s face and you saw that anger, that was the physical embodiment of white patriarchy and like evil, like it really was. The rage on his face and the entitlement that you`re talking about, that is the embodiment of this entire presidency, this entire administration, and he is winning. And the Republicans are now like this is our guy. We`re behind him. And we`re going go all the way in.
I`m telling you, the time for civility is over. Democrats need to stop treating this like this is every other election time and this is every other moment in history. This has changed.
HAYES: I want to get your thoughts on this and the #metoo part of this and what it`s done that that since you`ve done amazing report on that. If you will stay with us, we will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HAYES: Still with me, Michelle Goldberg, Danielle Moodie-Mills and Irin Carmon.
So, this all, of course, comes against the backdrop of #metoo. And I think actually there`s an argument that it`s only in that context that she comes forward. I mean, she starts talking to other people in her life about this -- what she says happened to her in the context of #metoo.
How do you think that impacted what happened today? What does it do to sort of the reception of the movement right now?
CARMON: Well for the last couple of weeks you`ve had survivors on Capitol Hill, not just the ones who shouted in Jeff Flake`s face, but also in Joe Manchin`s and outside Susan Collins` office and outside Murkowski.
And I`ve heard from some of those folks who did that. They`re feeling really drained. And they`re feeling really like why did I open up my heart and just like throw it on the floor of the senate building.
And so I guess I first just want to say that I completely understand how people can feel gutted and exhausted, but each time it`s like every fall or every couple of months survivors have to kind of spew their guts on the ground and say I am human, recognize me, I am here. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn`t.
And how many times do we have to do this? I mean, this happened before the election too and it happened a year ago.
So first I think we have to recognize that that`s happening, and it matters on its own that people are brave enough to tell their stories in that way, whether or not it changes the outcome of the election.
But I also think that we`ve seen the limits of people`s recognition of the validity of these stories where they intersect with it`s my guy, it`s my goals. They only want to hear it as much as you hear on the right, oh, the liberals in Hollywood, the liberals in journalism have been exposed. It`s own -- #metoo will only go so far as long as society only is interested in the stories of the people that they...
HAYES: On the other side.
CARMON: On the other side, that they already wanted to get out.
GOLDBERG: But this is not a kind of bipartisan phenomenon. The left has been much better about cleaning house, and I think that...
HAYES: Although that instinct to me is pretty universal.
GOLDBERG: Right.
CARMON: I think...
GOLDBERG: The instinct is there, but I think that there has been a kind of recognition of that instinct on the left and an understanding that you have to transcend this.
HAYES: Things are changing.
GOLDBERG: And so what you`ve basically seen is kind of house cleaning in liberal institutions. You know, the media kind of politics, but really none on the right except where it`s utterly convenient. I mean, don`t forget that it was Bill Shine who was coaching Brett Kavanaugh for this performance, right? So it`s -- so, you know, there is sort of no consequences on the right for multiple accusations unless they`re so egregious like Roy Moore, and even then they`ll still kind of stay behind you.
MOODIE-MILLS: They supported Roy Moore. They were there for him.
HAYES: Donald Trump afterwards went down there.
MOODIE-MILLS: I mean, they congratulated him.
HAYES: Two-shirted strategist (inaudible) Steve Bannon was...
MOODIE-MILLS: There is nothing for them to feel bad about. There is no reason for the right to clean house because their people will still support them.
HAYES: And the other thing is like, I was thinking about this today as I was watching Susan Collins and talking to conservatives who -- a lot of people -- you know, Brett Kavanaugh is like in the center of the conservative establishment. People know him. They like him. He`s -- you know, and I know people that know him and think very highly of him.
And I keep thinking about Dennis Hastert. And Dennis Hastert is the longest serving Republican speaker of the house in American history. It turned out he was pretty clearly a child molester. If you had gone in the 1990s and told Republicans or Democrats or anyone on Capitol Hill that, they would be like are you out of your mind? Of course he is not. I know the guy. I like the guy. He is decent. He is good. He is kind. You could -- a million things about him. It turned out actually that people that manifest and present that way can also do totally monstrous stuff.
That does not mean that Brett Kavanaugh is guilty of what he is alleged to be. I want to be very clear. I`m not saying that is case closed. I`m just saying -- but if it is the case that you can be totally decent and stand up in one context.
MOODIE-MILLS: It`s not always the Boogie Man that rapes you, like that`s the reality. It`s not always the Boogie Man that comes out of the dark alley, it`s the one that you see, that you know. ts the professor. It`s the teacher.
HAYES: Or the priest.
MOODIE-MILLS: Bill Cosby.
HAYES: And Bill Cosby.
CARMON: Did not show himself to be a genial, lovely guy in the last two weeks.
HAYES: That`s the other thing.
CARMON: So, I think to your point, yes, that was true when the allegations first emerged. But subsequently, he has raged in public. He has manipulated. He has been evasive and dishonest. And to me, just watching that, I thought this is a performance that is supposed to make us believe that you are a straight-up innocent guy. And when you are lying about dumb minor things.
HAYES: Like I never drank so much that things were spotty the next day.
CARMON: Yeah, or I`m not barred. I mean, these banal small things that all add up to a pattern of evasiveness. And it was very similar in the way that he answered questions about his jurisprudence.
So, I`m sure that he is a great carpool dad in the right context, I also think it`s the case in some of my reporting that he spent 15 years trying to gain kind of a whitewashed bipartisan cred among the legal establishment, because he was preparing for this moment and he had to get the stink of the frat boy, political operative off of him.
HAYES: That`s right.
CARMON: So, I think that only tell us us so much.
HAYES: Michelle Goldberg, Danielle Moodie-Mills, and Irin Carmon, this was awesome. I`d love to do it again at some point. Thank you.
That is ALL IN for this evening. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts right now. Good evening, Rachel.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END