White House initially limited FBI investigation. TRANSCRIPT: 10/1/2018, All In w Chris Matthews.

Jane Mayer, Jeff Merkley, Barbara Boxer, Ariel Edwards-Levy, Cornell Belcher

Date: October 1, 2018
Guest: Jane Mayer, Jeff Merkley, Barbara Boxer, Ariel Edwards-Levy,
Cornell Belcher

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: Happy birthday, Mr. President. “ALL IN” with
Chris Hayes starts right now.



SEN. JEFF FLAKE (R), ARIZONA: It does no good to have an investigation
that just gives us more cover for example.

HAYES: A White House response to reports of a limited investigation.

what they have to do to get to the answer.

HAYES: Tonight, what we know about which accusers and which witnesses have
been interviewed as the White House says it has authorized an expanded
probe into Brett Kavanaugh. Plus, just what constitutes lying to Congress?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If Judge Kavanaugh is shown to have lied to the
committee, nomination is over?

FLAKE: Oh yes.

HAYES: The impact the Kavanaugh scandal is already having on the poll.


HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York I`m Chris Hayes. As the clock ticks
steadily down toward the Friday deadline, a pitched battle is unfolding in
Washington over the precise terms of the FBI`s investigation into the
sexual misconduct allegations against Brett Kavanaugh. And Kavanaugh a
Supreme Court nomination and perhaps even getting to the truth about his
conduct hangs in the balance.

New York Times first reported over the weekend the White House and Senate
Republicans had directed the FBI to interview just four potential
witnesses, Mark Judge, Kavanaugh`s alleged accomplice in the sexual assault
of Christine Blasey Ford, Kavanaugh and Judge both deny the assault took
place. Also, P.J. Smith and Leland Kaiser who both attended that same
gathering where the alleged assault occur occurred according to Blasey Ford
and Deborah Ramirez who accused Kavanaugh of exposing himself to her in
college in an interview with The New Yorker which Kavanaugh also denies.

Now that last list did not include a number of other potential
corroborating witnesses who could verify the woman`s stories or testify to
Kavanaugh`s whereabouts or his conduct of the time. It also did not
include a third woman accusing Kavanaugh of sexual misconduct Julie
Swetnick. As of this morning, according to her lawyer Michael Avenatti,
their attempts to talk to the FBI were unsuccessful.

Meanwhile, today amid growing alarm the Republicans may be tying the FBI`s
hands, the White House authorized the bureau to expand its Kavanaugh
investigation and follow any leads while maintaining the same Friday


TRUMP: I want them to do a very comprehensive investigation, whatever that
means according to the Senators and the Republicans and the Republican
majority. I want them to do that. I want it to be comprehensive. I
actually think it`s a good thing for Judge Kavanaugh. I think it`s
actually a good thing, not a bad thing. I think it`s a good thing. Now,
with that being said, I`d like it to go quickly.


HAYES: Now, that`s a very different position, the President had taken
behind the scenes at least according the New York Times which reported that
he told associates Republicans had erred by not quickly holding a full
Senate vote on Judge Kavanaugh`s nomination on Friday after the Judiciary
Committee advanced it along party lines ignoring Republican senators calls
for investigation and forcing them instead to take a vote.

There were signs that those same Senators may have had something to do with
the White House loosening its grip today. At an event in Boston, Senator
Jeff Flake said he`s been pushing to make sure the FBI conducts a quote
real investigation.


FLAKE: I`ve had discussions many yesterday with my colleagues with the
White House counsel`s office. My staff is following up as well. I had one
of those conversations just five minutes ago to make sure that the – that
any current credible allegation that has been made is fully investigated.
It does no good to have an investigation that just gives us more cover for
example. We actually need to find out what we can find out.


HAYES: Senator Susan Collins confirmed to NBC News she was also consulted
about the decision to authorize an expanded investigation. And tonight
amid lingering questions over the scope of the probe, new evidence obtained
by NBC News suggests the Kavanaugh may have been pressuring college
classmates behind the scenes to rebut the sexual misconduct claimed by
Deborah Ramirez. NBC`s source says efforts to turn that evidence over the
FBI have thus far been unsuccessful.

I`m joined by – now by NBC News National Correspondent Heidi Przybyla, one
of the authors of that late-breaking report. What have you found out,

Chris, who did not want to come forward but she has tried several times to
get him her information through the FBI unsuccessfully. And NBC obtained a
memo that she had sent to the FBI detailing text messages between herself
and another former Yale classmate of Brett Kavanaugh. The text messages
she says she`s drawn no specific conclusions about it but that she`s very
concerned about what may be behind them for two reasons.

First of all, they show that Brett Kavanaugh is named by name by her
classmate who she was corresponding with as basically pushing this
classmate to refute Deborah Ramirez claims before the New Yorker story came
out. He did that in a couple of different ways. First of all, asking for
her to track down a photograph which we`ve obtained of both Deborah Ramirez
and Brett Kavanaugh at a wedding ten years after the alleged incident
showing them seemingly smiling at each other. There`s a backstory behind
that. But secondly, also it says in one of the text messages that Brett
specifically pressured her to refute Ramirez`s claims.

Finally what`s very concerning about the text messages is that they show
these are private communications between these two women and the one woman
whose messages these are – her name is Carrie Bertram was saying to her
classmate look, I was at the wedding and now it all makes sense to me now
that I know about these allegations because Deborah was acting so weird she
wouldn`t go near Brett, she wouldn`t go near his friends. She was clinging
to us.

And so that is that is the bottom line of it. You know, will the FBI now
that it is supposedly expanding its investigation actually talk to people
like Carrie Bertram who like I said didn`t want to go public, didn`t give
us this information, but agreed to provide a statement once we came to her
with it and said – she said yes I literally contacted them three times, I
can`t get through.

HAYES: There`s also a question here. Brett Kavanaugh, Judge Kavanaugh was
asked under oath in multiple lines of questioning both before the committee
and in private correspondence with Senate Judiciary investigators about
whether he had foreknowledge the New Yorker. He seemed to give some
different answers. He said in open hearing that he knew Deborah Ramirez
was calling around to ex-classmates but said he`d never heard of the story
before it was published. How do we square that with what you`ve learned?

PRZYBYLA: Right. So again, according to the messages and they are all
clearly dated before the story ran, he is named by his classmate, Karen
Yarasavage, as a person who was pressuring her to refute the claim. So we
basically know that he certainly knew about it and he knew about the claims
prior to publication. We don`t know how far in advance but that is the
entire point, Chris, of this exercise as that the woman Carrie Bertram
wants the FBI to look into that. Because if she was receiving text
messages, her classmate, from Brett Kavanaugh or from his team, then
possibly many other people in that private circle were and just how far
back to this extent.

She says in her memo that she believes this campaign – this effort could
have started as early as July although she didn`t provide any specific text
messages to back that up. The text messages she provided were very recent
all around the publication of The New Yorker piece.

HAYES: All right, Heidi Przybyla, great reporting and thank you very much.
All right, let`s bring in New Yorker Staff Writer Jane Mayer who along with
Ron Farrow has been breaking lots of news about the sexual misconduct
allegations about – against Kavanaugh and whose latest pieces on the
confusion surrounding the FBI`s renewed investigation. And characterized
that confusion for us, Jane.

JANE MAYER, STAFF WRITER, NEW YORKER: Well, a number of people
particularly Yale classmates but others too who have information that they
think is important and they want the FBI to see – feel that they can`t get
it to the FBI. They have tried, they`ve been – they`ve called, they`ve
been told to try calling an FBI tip line that go to various field offices
of the FBI where nobody seems to know what they`re talking about. It`s
been a confusing situation and some of the people that I`ve talked to who I
regard as people who`ve got key information have – are feeling that –
beginning to wonder if this is a real investigation or some kind of
whitewash in the words of one of them.

HAYES: Deborah Ramirez was on that list. Even the very restricted list of
that reporting suggests was initially handed the FBI by the White House of
people to interview. Do we know if she is interviewed with the FBI as of

MAYER: I believe she has been interviewed by the FBI but one of the people
that I wrote about in this story is a classmate of theirs, that is of
Debbie Ramirez and of Brett Kavanaugh in the Yale class of 1987 who
remembers hearing about Ramirez`s allegations. He remembers hearing about
the party that she was at and the scene that she described. He says he`s a
100 percent sure that it was Brett Kavanaugh who remembers hearing it 35
years ago, either the night of the party or in the next day or two. And
he`s written up a statement for the FBI and he`s gotten no response. I
checked with him right before going on the air, he still got no response.

The same is true of the lawyer for Elizabeth Rasor who was the college
girlfriend of Mark Judge who was the friend of Kavanaugh from high school
who according to the alligation against Kavanaugh having to do with
Christine Blasey Ford, Mark Judge was the only other person in the room at
the time. And this is a woman who went out with Mark Judge who said that
the descriptions he`s given of their innocence at that period are a lie.
And she knows because Mark Judge confessed to her with a lot of shame she
says and she`s sorry to have to say this that when he was in high school,
he had sex with an inebriated woman and several other boys from high school
had sex with the same woman.

And he wants she wants, Elizabeth Rasor, wants the FBI to understand that
this is the social background against which this these allegations from
Christine Blasey Ford took place.

HAYES: And we should say Elizabeth Rasor was on the record saying that in
a story you reported. She is trying to get to the FBI as well. There`s a
number of people we`ve seen reports of in that case. One thing –

MAYER: And I think one other thing, Chris, we should say is that that Mark
Judge has denied it and of course Kavanaugh has denied this as well. I
mean, you know, we got to give everybody their side. But these are people
who when I interviewed them, what they are saying is I want to talk to the
FBI. It`s about trying to get a fair process. They want to do this under
of at threat of perjury and they`re saying they still haven`t been able to
talk to the FBI and I think that`s the issue. It`s – they actually want
to give information. They feel a civic duty about it.

HAYES: Mark Judge we should say, his lawyer said that he has interview
with the FBI for this sort of renewed and reopened background check though
that internet viewers not complete. It strikes me that one of the issues
here may be and this is an attempt at a sort of charitable reading what I`d
like to hear what you think which is that this is a highly unusual
background investigation because it`s extremely public. Usually, the FBI
is doing this in the background, they`re going out and talking to people.

There`s a lot of people presumably that are trying to get to the FBI at
this point it seems at least witnessing what I`ve heard from you and other
reporters the FBI is having a hard I`m putting them in contact with the

MAYER: It`s – you know, there`s – it`s a small social group that it`s
not that big a group of people as far as I know. I mean it took Ronan
Farrow and myself maybe two weeks to sort of tap into this social group at
Yale. And if we could do – we`re not the FBI so I would – I would think
the FBI would be able to get to this group of people and it`s important I
think. I mean the lesson we learned from the Anita Hill story whenever –
that was 27 years ago was that corroborating witnesses are important
because you get to this situation where you`ve got this standoff between
two credible-seeming people maybe, and it`s very hard to know the truth.
And so you need to talk to others who were involved at the time and who
know these characters.

HAYES: All right, Jane Mayer, who`s doing great reporting on this, we will
continue to monitor this with you if that`s cool with you throughout the
week as that deadline ticks forward. Thanks a lot.

MAYER: Thanks.

HAYES: For more on who`s calling the shots to the FBI`s investigation and
what they`re looking for I`m joined by Democratic Senator Jeff Merkley of
Oregon. Where is your understanding, Senator, of who is in charge of this
and who sort of dictates the approach in the scope?

SEN. JEFF MERKLEY (D), OREGON: Well, Chris, ultimately it`s the
President`s direction. And clearly, he was trying to limit it as much as
he possibly could. He`s now made a public statement saying that he has
this expanded vision but who knows what his team is doing privately. And
the fact that so many individuals, several days into this have not been
contacted, that`s a very bad sign.

After all, the FBI is a very large organization. They can assign an agent
to every single one of these individuals. They certainly could have
responded to their request and that`s got a little time to talk to them. I
hope that these interviews that we`re holding in the press are lighting the
fire under them because it`s really outrageous that they are moving so

HAYES: I want to get your reaction – Mitch McConnell who is – you know,
if it`s Senate Republicans in the White House who are directing this and
the judiciary can – stuff, you can get a sense of how they view this
whether there are sort of persuadable on this than Mitch McConnell`s words
on the Senate floor today. He had some very harsh words. He talked about
McCarthyism and he talked about a lot of stuff. This is one of the things
he had to say where he accused Democrats of engaging in bad faith. Take a
listen, if you can give me a reaction.


we will then be treated to a lecture, a lecture that anything short of a
totally unbounded fishing expedition of indefinite duration is too limited
or too arbitrary or somehow insufficient. We all know that`s coming. If
you listen carefully Mr. President, you can practically hear the sounds of
the Democrats moving the goalposts.


HAYES: Your reaction?

MERKLEY: Well, Mitch McConnell has really been conspiring with the
President to limit the information that the Senate receives. After all,
the president put a hundred thousand pages under the mark of presidential
privilege that we`ve never received. About key issues where there seems to
be discrepancies regarding torture, regarding what judge nominations that
Kavanaugh was involved in. regarding the receipt of stolen information and
stolen documents. And so there`s a tremendous amount of relevant review of
Kavanaugh`s record that hasn`t taken place and Mitch McConnell`s right at
the middle of it.

And for him to now be trying to say well, I`m going to prepare to justify a
very limited FBI investigation by claiming an expanded one is inappropriate
or outrageous request. No, this should be a thorough FBI investigation and
Mitch McConnell needs to stand up for the principles of fairness and
thoroughness. The Senate has a responsibility to review Kavanaugh`s
record. They haven`t been able to do it, key records have been blocked,
key witnesses have been blocked, and certainly, the FBI hasn`t done its job

HAYES: Is it – what is being communicated to you in the Democratic caucus
about this timeline? I mean, is the understanding that there is going to
be a vote this week? Have you been told that? Is that going to happen?

MERKLEY: Well, we came back in this evening. We`ll be having a caucus
tomorrow, I`m sure we`ll learn more. But what we`re certainly hearing
through the various grapevines is that Mitch McConnell`s determined to keep
us in and jam this vote through before more information comes out.

HAYES: Final question. All of the information that`s being collected will
go in the background file that the FBI keeps on nominees which is
accessible only to members of the U.S. Senate and not public for good
reason we should note. The privacy here is important of this process. Is
your – is it your understanding that will remain there, that senators will
be able to view it but not public?

MERKLEY: I am not confident we`ll be able to see all of the information in
part because I just up to this point the FBI doesn`t seem to be doing all
the thorough work and that`s going to do some kind of a decision in the FBI
what they share. So I am – I am – I want to be proven wrong that the FBI
really is doing a thorough investigation. But just the comments that you -
- from your reporter a few moments ago, that so many key people who have
tried to come forward and contact the FBI, the FBI is not responding,
that`s a very bad sign about the legitimacy of this effort.

HAYES: All right, Senator Jeff Merkley, thanks for your time tonight.

MERKLEY: You`re welcome.

HAYES: Ahead, Kate Snow of NBC News is here to talk about her new
interview with Kavanaugh accuser Julie Swetnick and the picking of part of
Brett Kavanaugh has testimony as multiple people who knew Kevin are going
on the record who say he lied under oath. What happens if the Supreme
Court nominee perjures himself in two minutes.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If Judge Kavanaugh is shown to have lied to the
committee, nomination is over?

FLAKE: Oh yes.

SEN. CHRIS COONS (D), DELAWARE: I would think so.


HAYES: Now, if that is actually the standard that Jeff Flake is applying,
Brett Kavanaugh appears to be in some trouble because there was a lot of
testimony Thursday that is tough to square with the truth even putting
aside the actual sexual assault allegation. For starters, there`s
Kavanaugh`s dubious explanations for phrases on his high school yearbook
page like Devil`s Triangle, boofed, beach week, Ralph`s Club, biggest
contributor to the – and most egregiously the Renate Alumnus which
Kavanaugh claimed was a reference to a girl at a nearby school who is
simply a really great friend.

At least four of his former classmates called it a lie and a poem on
another student`s yearbook page suggests say far more misogynistic attempt.
And then there`s Kavanaugh`s assertion that his drinking never got out of
control. Four of his Yale classmates contradict that claim saying, when
Brett got drunk he was often belligerent and aggressive, that he frequently
became incoherently drunk and that he was a big partier, often drank to
excess and there had to be a number of nights where he does not remember.


in denying the possibility that he ever blacked out from drinking and in
downplaying the degree and frequency of his drinking, Brett has not told
the truth.


HAYES: With me now MSNBC Legal Analyst and former U.S. attorney Maya
Wiley, Senior Vice-President for Social Justice at the New School, MSNBC
Legal Analysts Cynthia Alksne, a former Federal Prosecutor and former
Senator Barbara Boxer of California, Host of the podcast Fight Back. And
Senator, maybe I`ll start with you. What is the significance of the fact
that Brett Kavanaugh said a bunch of stuff on Thursday independent of the
allegation of sexual assault that appears pretty clearly on its face to not
have been true?


HAYES: Yes, I am.

BOXER: OK, I thought that he was not being truthful from the get-go quite
honestly when he talked about the fact that Roe was set a law. I mean it
feels like it was three years ago. But he denied that he had anything to
do for example with the whole issue of torture when he worked for George W.
Bush. He denied that he had anything to do with the confirmation process
when he did. He denied having seen stolen e-mails from Patrick Leahy. So
to me, I felt that was established.

But I will tell you when I saw Dr. Ford give her testimony and I don`t know
anyone who said she wasn`t credible. And when she was asked are you sure
that this was Brett Kavanaugh? And she said 100 percent. And her
description of him being right on top of her, he must have been looking
right in her eyes and groping, and then putting his hand over her mouth,
she knows it was him. So you know, unless he has no recollection of it
because he drank, this thing is disastrous and he I tried to paint a
picture of himself as a choirboy which he was not and I don`t know if he is
now but he certainly wasn`t then.

It`s – I think that Mitch McConnell`s anger, and he is angry. I mean,
this Republican Party that like the last Angry Men, I mean, he`s over-the-
top angry. And I`ll tell you why he`s angry. He told the president not to
choose Kavanaugh. He said there`s too much of a paper trail and it`s
turning out to be true. It`s for other reasons. It`s a mess.

HAYES: Maya, I mean, the argument that I`m seeing from some concerns, I`m
not seeing a lot of people defend him on the merits on (INAUDIBLE) of these
things, the meaning of Devil`s Triangle which he seemed to lie about pretty
clearly. No one can find any reference to it as a drinking game which is
what he called it. The idea that he is never in his life ever drank so
much he couldn`t recall things from the night before which I don`t think is
true of anyone who`s ever drank really at all – it`s true of me that there
have been nights that I can`t remember what happened the night before –
that no one`s really defending that. They`re just saying it`s immaterial.
This doesn`t matter. Now you`re trying to catch him on a sort of
misdemeanor. What do you think about that argument?

MAYA WILEY, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: I think that Brett Kavanaugh wants this
job and therefore is willing to bend the truth and outright lie to get it.
And the materiality from a legal standpoint is important because if you`re
going to be convicted of perjury, you have to show that you not only
knowingly lied but that that lie was material. I think in this case it was
material because the issue had to go with refuting allegations that
supported whether or not Dr. Ford right and now Deborah Ramirez and
possibly other women are telling the truth in terms of whether he violated
the law.

And whether or not he`s ultimately prosecuted, I think is a different issue
so we should separate that out but I did want to say that. But this is not
about a criminal prosecution. This is actually about whether he has the
integrity to serve as a Supreme Court justice. Well, Cynthia, there`s also
– there`s also the fact that he painted a picture more broadly of his sort
of experience with alcohol. It`s very funny the President today said I
think he was honest about the fact he had trouble with alcohol in his youth
which he very much was not. I mean, that`s not what he said at all.

You have the Chad Ludington statement and then you know, Ludington
basically says look, the guy drank a lot. He was – he was a notorious
drunk. He was a belligerent aggressive drunk. And we now have the
reporting from New York Times that he was questioned by police after a bar
fight in 1985. You know, it`s pretty clear the picture of this guy which
again that behavior itself is not like disqualifying for Supreme Court
Justice but does stand in pretty sharp contrast to how he characterized it
before the committee.

CYNTHIA ALKSNE, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYSTS: Right. And remember, the minute
Klobuchar got close to the question, he attacked her in a very mean and
terrible way. And it`s obviously you know, close to the quick for him to
ask him about his drinking. And Maya`s point and Barbara`s point, Senator
Boxer`s point are the key that A, he`s willing to say anything to get this
job, and B, he`s got a big credibility problem walking into this drinking
because of all of the – you know, when Senator Leahy accuses you of lying,
I mean you`re in trouble. I mean, Senator Leahy is the nicest guy that
ever walked the earth and he basically – he`s called him a liar before we
even got to these sexual abuses or the drinking.

HAYES: Well, so Senator Boxer let me ask you this. I mean, people can say
well, Democrats oppose this nomination for substantive reasons before he
even said anything under oath because of Brett Kavanaugh`s jurisprudence
and how they think he`ll rule. Is it is his behavior in how he was before
the Committee on Thursday and before that to you distinct from other
nominees that you have seen that you might have opposed for substantive

BOXER: I have never in my life ever see a witness let alone someone up for
a judgeship for the Supreme Court act in this way. The belligerence, the
anger, the interrupting of my former colleagues in the most nasty way, the
kind of entitlement, how dare you ask me these questions, it was horrible.
And I think you know that for many years I headed the Senate Ethics
Committee or I was vice-chair. If a United States Senator ever acted that
way at a hearing, so out of control and if there was even one letter
talking about how we may have acted in the past, it would open up an
investigation. And by the way there would be no time limit put on it.

WILEY: Senator Boxer is making a point that also applies to sitting
federal judges because there is a code of ethics that also exists for
sitting federal judges. I would argue that Judge Kavanaugh violated that
code of ethics before the Senate Committee which in and of itself is a
problem for someone who should – is considering promotion to the highest
court of the land. But specifically, you`re not supposed to behave in a
way that creates an appearance of impropriety, that includes honesty,
integrity, and demonstrating you`ll be impartial. He violated all of those
in the – on – last Thursday.

HAYES: Cynthia, I want to play this exchange because this to me was a
perfect example of sort of doubling down on this small, what to me seems a
pretty clear untruth. I mean, I think the evidence that supports that it`s
not true and sort of turning it around and using anger to sort of support
himself. This is him on the Renate question. Take a listen.


SEN. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE (D), RHODE ISLAND: You mentioned I think the
Renate or Renate – Renata, I don`t know how you pronounce that. That`s a
proper name of an individual you know?


WHITEHOUSE: What does the word alumnius mean in that context?

KAVANAUGH: I explained that in my opening statement. We – she was a
great friend of ours. A bunch of us went to dances with her. She hung out
with us as a group. She`s a good person and to have her name dragged
through these hearing is a joke and really an embarrassment.


HAYES: It wasn`t – I mean, Senator Sheldon Whitehouse didn`t drag her
name to the – right? I mean, that to me was such an obvious – like you
could tell the truth you say I feel terrible – there`s a lot of stuff in
there that he could tell the truth about and he has chosen to go in the way
that he has gotten.

ALKSNE: Right. I mean, so particularly revealing comment, it`s
misogynistic, it`s mean, it`s hurtful it`s vile, and I will tell you, it
makes my blood boil when I see that because they have – they have called
this girl a slut and they think it`s funny. And I don`t think it`s funny
and I don`t think it`s acceptable and I wish I could say I thought the
world was so much of a better place. We had an incident not two years ago
at a local high school here, another rich high school where the boys did
the same thing to a girl. So it`s not like we`ve really come that far.
It`s depressing for me. But this is – this is definitely a lie and it
reveals his character.

HAYES: Yes, I would just say that the people could shake in mind that the
behavior of him as 17 and 18 which I think in many ways is really gross and
offish and misogynistic, whatever, is related to the behavior of him as a
grown man right now which is that he is – appears to not be telling truth
about it over and over and over again. Maya Wiley, Cynthia Alksne and
Senator Barbara Boxer, thank you.

Ahead, NBC News National Correspondent Kate Snow on her exclusive interview
with Brett Kavanaugh accuser Julie Swetnick, next.


HAYES: So far three women have stepped forward to accuse Brett Kavanaugh
on the record of
sexual misconduct or sexual assault. And one of those women, Julie
Swetnick, has now given her first interview to NBC News senior national
correspondent Kate Snow. Swetnick does not accuse Kavanaugh himself of
sexual assaulting her, but of being present at a party where she says she
was gang raped.

Tonight, NBC News has not been able independently corroborate Swetnick`s
claims. When we asked her attorney, Michael Avenatti, for any witnesses
who could back up Swetnick`s account, he provided four names of friends
Swetnick says went to parties with her. One of them says he does recall
anyone named Julie Swetnick, another of the friends is deceased.

NBC News has reached out to the other two and has not heard back.

Swetnick`s mother`s name was also provided, but she, too, is deceased.

And Kavanaugh himself has called her accusations, quote, ridiculous and a
farce. He also says he doesn`t know her. And Julie Swetnick told NBC News
that she does remember him.


KATE SNOW, NBC NEWS: Can you describe to me what you saw him do?

JULIE SWETNICK, KAVANAUGH ACCUSER: He was very aggressive, very sloppy
drunk, very mean drunk. I saw him go up to girls and paw on them, try to,
you know, get a little too handsy, touching them in private parts. I saw
him try to shift clothing.

SNOW: Are there people…


SNOW: …alive today who would say yes who went to those parties there
with Julie.

SWETNICK: Yes, there are people that know about those parties.


HAYES: All right, here to tell me what we know so far and what we don`t
know is Kate Snow of NBC News. Good to have you here, Kate.

SNOW: Chris, congratulations, you just got an Emmy.

HAYES: We just won an Emmy. I know. I`m very happy about that.

So, let me ask you this, this is I think an important thing you talk about
sort of corroborating details and what we can and cannot nail down. Since
Julie Swetnick made those allegations at a sworn affidavit.

SNOW: Right, last week.

HAYES: Last week. Have we been able to find anyone that can just
definitively say, yes, I was at these kinds of parties with Julie Swetnick?

SNOW: Right, well that was obviously what we`ve been looking for since
last week. Our investigative unit, our colleagues here at NBC News. We
have a lot of resources here, Chris. I have been working the phones since
last week. And then when we knew we were getting this interview with
Julie, which happened yesterday on Sunday, we spent the weekend trying to
reach out to people independently, but also asking her attorney, Michael
Avenatti, if he could provide names of, you
know, who drove her to the parties, who was with her at the parties, just
so we can try to verify that she was there and put her in that place and

And to this point, as you just mentioned, we have not been able – the only
names we got were this morning and one person has said, no, I don`t
remember her. One is deceased and the other two have not responded yet.

So bottom line is that NBC News has not been able to independently verify
not just the claims she`s making, but that she was in those places. And
this is just what we do when we try to do a story.

HAYES: One other thing. I watched that whole interview, which we played
on The Beat at 6:00 p.m. There did seem to be places in which the
interview was slightly different or significantly different than what had
first been reported or was in the affidavit.

SNOW: Yeah, there are differences. And I would urge people to go to – I
just tweeted it, what we ran on Ari Melber`s show at 6:00 p.m. is on my
Twitter, which is @TVKateSnow, because I`d urge you to watch the whole
thing, because there are differences between what she said in the sworn
statement and what she said to me.

For example, she said in the sworn statement that she had become aware of
Judge Kavanaugh and his friend Mark Judge spiking the punch or being
involved somehow in spiking punch. That`s not exactly what she said to me
in the interview. In the interview she said she understood the punch had
been spiked, but never saw one of them doing that.

It`s also a little bit different the way she describes what you mention as
gang rape. I mean, she now is saying, look, I saw groups of men outside
doors at parties, didn`t know what was happening behind those doors, saw
Brett Kavanaugh, she says, in those parties, too, and she says it was only
after something happened to me in 1982, she says she was attacked and
pushed into a bedroom and raped by several men, that`s when she said she
realized why those groups of men had been gathering around doors.

HAYES: We should say also that in that interview whereas Dr. Blasey Ford
had a sort of specific time line of when she became aware of Kavanaugh,
when she sort of tried to reach out. Ms. Swetnick`s timeline about when
she first sort of put in her mind two and two together or placed Brett
Kavanaugh having been at those parties and his prominent public role, that
timeline was a little less clear in her telling it.

SNOW: It was a little less clear.

HAYES: Significantly, I would say.

She first said to me that she became aware he was on a short list, which
would have been in July.

SNOW: Right. Then she mentioned Dr. Ford and hearing Dr. Ford`s story and
that being a motivation for her coming forward, which wasn`t until

HAYES: Right.

SNOW: So that was a bit fuzzy.

HAYES: the last thing i should say here is important IS THAT in the case
of Dr. Blasey Ford and Deborah Ramirez, the person about whom the
allegation is specifically is Brett Kavanaugh.

SNOW: Right.

HAYES: In this case this is – right. In this case – or the person who
was the assailant or assaulted the individual who is making the allegation,
that is not the case in Swetnick`s account.

SNOW: That is correct. And I do want to be clear, though, to give her say
here. I mean, she says that she saw Brett Kavanaugh at parties, more than
one, 10 or more.

HAYES: And Mark Judge as well.

SNOW: Mark Judge as well. And she says that she saw, very specifically
she says she saw
Brett Kavanaugh behaving badly. She describes him being drunk, being
belligerent, essentially pushing women into walls she said at one point,
and, you know, touching them inappropriately. So those are serious,
serious charges.

And to that point, that`s why we`re trying to do our diligence and find
other people that may have seen the same thing because right now you`ve got
Brett Kavanaugh saying, I never even
met her, I was never at a party with her. And her saying, no, this is what

HAYES: All right, Kate Snow, thank you for coming on and your reporting.

Still to come, the president praising Brett Kavanaugh in the campaign trail
using his supreme court nominee`s sexual assault accusations as wedge
issues for the mid-terms. Tonight, there are new numbers that show just
how the Kavanaugh scandal is playing out.

Plus, tonight`s Thing One, Thing Two starts next.


HAYES: Thing One tonight, about one-fifth of all households in the country
watched the Kavanaugh hearings last Thursday. It was an instantly iconic
news moment, one that really made us wonder when the heck does Saturday
Night Live come back from its summer hiatus? Oh, it was this weekend, you


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Judge Kavanaugh, are you ready to begin?

MATT DAMON, ACTOR: Oh, hell yeah. Let me tell you this, I`m going to
start at an 11. I`m
going to take it to a 15 real quick.


HAYES: That`s Thing 2 in 60 seconds.


HAYES: There was a lot of anticipation about how SNL would handle the
Kavanaugh hearings
on its season premiere this weekend, and boy, did they go all out.


DAMON: What!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Judge Kavanaugh, are you saying that all the claims
of Dr. Ford, Mrs. Ramirez and Mrs. Swetnick are false?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want to point out the Democrats in this
committee have acted like cowards. Now, if you`ll excuse me, I`d like to
hide behind the female prosecutor who we hired as a human shield.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Judge Kavanaugh, would you say in high school that
you were a frequent drinker?

DAMON: Look, I like beer, OK? I like beer. Boys like beer. Girls like
beer. I like beer. I like beer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: …and shake my finger and get rid of a tomato for 15

DAMON: If you think I`m angry now, you just wait until I get on that
Supreme Court because then you`re all going to pay. Give me a can of

And live from New York, it`s Saturday night!



HAYES: Singer/songwriter John Legend performing there at our Global
Citizens Festival. He is crusading on an issue that in the words of the
New York Times Magazine could enfranchise more people at once than any
single initiative since women`s suffrage.

Florida`s amendment four would restore voting rights for people with prior
felony convictions, more than 1.5 million people. And it has overwhelming
support among Florida voters in the latest poll.


JOHN LEGEND, SINGER/SONGWRITER: In certain state, they`ve made it nearly
impossible for people who have been formally convicted of a felony to
actually participate in our democracy. And why? There is no good reason
why after having paid their debt to society and wanting to reintegrate into
society that they should not be allowed to vote.


HAYES: I will be in Florida with John Legend for a special All In America
on Thursday. Next week there is new polling on America`s reaction to the
Kavanaugh hearing. It does not look good for
Kavanaugh or for Republicans.


HAYES: The president has turned Brett Kavanaugh into a rallying cry at his
recent campaign
stops, but even with his Supreme Court pick hanging in the balance,
motivating his base doesn`t seem to be the issue, it`s everyone else.

According to a new Quinnipiac poll, nearly half of all American voters says
Kavanaugh should not be confirmed, while women specifically are even more
conclusive, opposing Kavanaugh`s confirmation by 20 points or so.

To talk about how Kavanaugh`s nomination will affect the midterms, we`re
joined by Cornell
Belcher, Democratic pollster MSNBC political analyst, and Ariel Edwards-
Levy, reporter and polling editor for Huffington Post.

Cornell, what do you – what`s your read on what the polling says about
Kavanaugh right now?

CORNELL BELCHER, DEMOCRATIC POLLSTER: To pick up on SNL, I think women are
going to start at 11, they`re going to kick it up to 15 real quick.

I mean, what could possibly go wrong with putting someone on the Supreme
Court, highest court in the land, that women don`t believe in a sexual
assault back and forth, right?

I think when you look at the way women are breaking, Democratic – Pew had,
you know, Democrats opening up a 23-point gender advantage among women. I
think this story certainly does not
help Republicans shrink that. I think it helps Democrats solidify and
expand that. And when you look at the kind of districts these suburban
sort of upscale districts where I think most of this midterm is going to be
fought over, those college educated women are breaking away from
Republicans in a way that – Chris, we may not – we haven`t seen this in a
generation. I think we could be seeing party realignment, particularly
among white women, in a way that we have not seen in a long, long time.

HAYES: What do you think, Ariel?

ARIEL EDWARDS-LEVY, HUFFINGTON POST: Yeah, I think right now we`re still
trying to poll something
that is very much still a moving target.


EDWARDS-LEVY: But there is a consistent story even among all the polls
they`re showing different things, and that is Kavanaugh started off
unusually unpopular for a Supreme Court nominee. He has, if anything,
gotten more unpopular. He is regularly polling in the negatives, which is
very unusual. And, you know, Republicans are always going to be fired up
about a Supreme Court justice. What`s unusual, and what we`re seeing this
time pretty consistently, is that Democrats are very fired up too.

And it`s much more about partisanship than it is about gender. But if you
look at Democratic women, many of them feel very strongly. They identify
with the accuser. And they are very interested in seeing what`s going to
happen in this, and they`re very motivated to stop Kavanaugh`s nomination.

HAYES: Now, we should say there is one bright spot in this polling for
Republicans, which is North Dakota. A new poll out today that had Kevin
Cramer, the Republican challenger there, up 10 points which is a big, big
lead over Heidi Heitkamp. That`s further out than what we`ve seen
generally in that polling. But that same poll, the majorities of voters of
North Dakota support Kavanaugh 61-27.

The question for you, Cornell, is how much does that one vote matter if
you`re Heidi Heitkamp
or Joe Manchin or someone else like that?

BELCHER: I think to the point made earlier, this is not a typical issue
that has fired up Democrats and sort of the base of the party. That`s
changed. And you`re seeing Democrats just as fired up about a Supreme
Court fight as the base of the Republican Party.

And you`re seeing – I think it`s really dangerous for any Democrat that is
going to vote for Kavanaugh with the base of the party. I think there will
be backlash and a price to pay in a way this
time around that we have not typically seen Democrats make their members
pay for Supreme Court fight.

This is something that is visceral and we`re seeing from the qualitative
women feel passionate about in a way that they typically fall on the
Democratic side do not. And I think it`s problematic for any Democrat
senator who votes for Kavanaugh.

HAYES: Ariel, one of the big stories of this election season so far has
been the gender gap. No one has ever seen anything quite like it in terms
of how big it has gotten. This is the sort of the generic
House race polling that has 58 percent supporting Democrats, 58 percent of
women, 35 percent supporting Republicans, a 23 point gap.

It keeps growing notch by notch, if I`m not mistaken.

EDWARDS-LEVY: Yeah, and I mean, you really are seeing this phenomenal gap
opening. And at the same time, something that is very notable to me is
that it really still is very polarized in that women on the Republican side
are by and large not reacting the same way.

HAYES: Right.

EDWARDS-LEVY: …that women on the Democratic side are.

So it`s still something where on almost every issue you can say OK, there
is a gender gap, there is a racial gap. There is a gap, but it`s going to
always be second to the polarization.

But obviously that`s still really informing the way that people are
responding to this race.

HAYES: That`s a great…

BELCHER: Can I make a quick point on the polarization of it, but one of
the things that I think you should also is interesting, and we saw this in
2006 as well is that parts of the Republican identification is shrinking.
And I – and where it`s shrinking is women are going to begin to sort of
leave the Republican Party, so those are in Republicans are really in the
Republican Party.

HAYES: Yeah, and so they`re no longer identifying, so they, then, move to
independent, so that that accounts for some of the kind of lockstep you see
in that Republican polling.

Cornell Belcher and Ariel Edwards, Levy, thank you both for joining us.

That is ALL IN for this evening. “THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW” starts right
now, starting with Joy Reid in for Rachel. Good evening, Joy.


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