New revelations about Kushner and Russia Transcript 11/17/7 All In with Chris Hayes

Chris Lu, Josh Barro, Nick Ackerman, Joyce Vance , Catherine Rampell, Francesca Chambers, Jenna McLaughlin

Date: November 17, 2017
Guest: Chris Lu, Josh Barro, Nick Ackerman, Joyce Vance , Catherine Rampell, Francesca Chambers, Jenna McLaughlin



admitted wrongdoing and the President hasn`t. I think that`s a very clear

HAYES: From the glass house White House, the President is chucking rocks.

to beautiful. I just start kissing them.

HAYES: Tonight, how Trump got away with it.

TRUMP: These are all horrible lies. All fabrications.

HAYES: And the lawsuit still going on.

TRUMP: We can`t let them change the most important election in our

HAYES: Then, new trouble for Jared.

with Russia, nor do I know of anyone else in the campaign who did so.

HAYES: The new reporting that contradicts what the son-in-law of the
President said in his testimony to Congress.

KUSHNER: I`ve been fully transparent in providing all requested

HAYES: Plus, who could have predicted a major leak from the Keystone
Pipeline? The story behind these insane photos and the reality of the tax
cut bill hitting a nerve.

SEN. ORRIN HATCH (R), UTAH: I really resent anybody saying that I`m just
doing this for the rich.

HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.

HATCH: Give me a break.


HAYES: Good evening from Chicago, I`m Chris Hayes. Tonight, the President
of the United States stands accused of sexual misconduct by more than a
dozen women over a period of decades. That fact has loomed over his
administration`s caution response to the flood of revelations about abuse
by powerful men, including, of course, allegations the Republican Candidate
for U.S. Senate in Alabama sexually assaulted teenage girls as an adult in
his 30s. Last night after Democratic Senator Al Franken apologized to a
woman who says he groped and forcibly kissed her a decade ago, releasing a
photo of Franken in a lewd pose while she was sleeping, the President could
not resist taking a shot. “The Al Frankenstein picture is really bad,
speaks 1,000 words. Where do his hands go in pictures two through six
while she sleeps? And to think that just last week he was lecturing anyone
who would listen about sexual harassment and respect for women.” The White
House was asked about those comments today.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If it`s fair to investigate Al Franken and the
allegation made by his accuser, is it also fair to investigate this
President and the allegations of sexual misconduct made against him by more
than a dozen women?

SANDERS: Look, I think that this was covered pretty extensively during the
campaign. We addressed that then the American people I think spoke very
loud and clear when they elected this President.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But how is this different?

SANDERS: I think in one case specifically Senator Franken has admitted
wrongdoing and the President hasn`t. I think that`s a very clear


HAYES: Well, for one thing, more of the American people voted for the
President`s opponent, but here`s the other thing, the President has
admitted to wrongdoing. He has. We`ve all heard it. Because he bragged
to Billy Bush about getting away with exactly, precisely the kind of
behavior Franken is accused of and worse.


TRUMP: You know, I`m automatically attracted to beautiful. I just start
kissing them, it`s like a magnet. I don`t even wait. And when you`re a
star, they let you do it. You can do anything.

BILLY BUSH, RADIO HOST: Whatever you want.

TRUMP: Grab them by the (BLEEP)


HAYES: Then Candidate Trump dismissed those comments as, “locker room
talk” when that tape came out last year, insisting he never done the acts
he so boasted about. But at least 15 women – 15 women have accused him on
the record with their names of unwanted physical contact, of kissing them,
of groping them, and grabbing them by the you know what. Many of them
spoke on camera about their experiences with this President.


TEMPLE TAGGART MCDOWELL, FORMER MISS USA: It was at that time where he
turned to me and embraced me and gave me a kiss on the lips. And I
remember being shocked and – because I would have just thought to shake
somebody`s hand.

JESSICA DRAKE, PORNOGRAPHIC ACTRESS: When we entered the room, he grabbed
each of us tightly in a hug and kissed each one of us without asking

this little grab. It`s like, you know, you`re feeling like a little cheek
– like a little cheek lift almost. And I stand up really tall. I`m
shocked in a moment. And I looked – and I turn around and look at him and
he doesn`t look at me, he doesn`t want to make eye contact with me.

KARENA VIRGINIA, YOGA INSTRUCTOR: He then walked up to me and reached his
right arm and grabbed my right arm. Then his hand touched the right inside
of my breast.

shoulder and began kissing me again very aggressively and placed his –
placed his hand on my breast. I pushed his chest to put space between us
and I said come on, man, get real. He repeated my words back to me, get
real as he began thrusting his genitals.

KRISTIN ANDERSON, ASPIRING MODEL: The person on my right who unbeknownst
to me at that time was Donald Trump put their hand up my skirt. He did
touch my vagina through my underwear. Absolutely.

JESSICA LEEDS, ACCUSER OF DONALD TRUMP: Somehow or another, the armrest in
the seat disappeared and it was a real shock when all of a sudden his hands
were all over me. When he started putting his hand up my skirt and that`s
was it.

JILL HARTH, ACCUSER OF DONALD TRUMP: He pushed me up against the wall and
had his hands all over me and tried to get up my dress again. And I had to
physically say, what are you doing? Stop it! It was a shocking thing to
have him do this.

TRUMP: You know, I`m automatically attracted to beautiful. I just start
kissing them. It`s like a magnet. You just kiss. I don`t even wait. And
when you`re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.

BUSH: Whatever you want.

TRUMP: Grab them by the (BLEEP).


HAYES: Besides bragging about putting his hands on women without their
consent, the President has also boasted about exploiting his former role as
a beauty pageant owner to leer at women in their underwear.


TRUMP: I`ll go backstage before a show and everyone`s getting dressed and
ready and everything else and, you know, no men are anywhere. And I`m
allowed to go in because I`m the owner of the pageant and therefore I`m
inspecting it. You know, I`m inspecting. I want to make sure that
everyone is good. You know, the dress.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re like a doctor.

TRUMP: Is everyone OK? You know, they`re standing there with no clothes.
Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women. And so I
sort of get away with things like that.


HAYES: I get away with things like that. Five former Ms. Teen USA
Contestants, Teen USA told Buzzfeed that Trump did, in fact, walk in on
them while they were changing. And competitors in that pageant, they are
as young as 14 years old. Like Roy Moore, whose allies are pushing
conspiracy theories to discredit his accusers, then Candidate Trump
attacked the women who made those allegations against him, calling them
liars and suggesting they were not attractive enough to assault.


TRUMP: The stories are total fiction. They`re 100 percent made up. They
never happened. I don`t know who these people are. I look on television.
I think it`s a disgusting thing. Some are doing it for probably a little
fame. They get some free fame. It`s a total setup. I was sitting with
him on an airplane. And he went after me on the plane. Yes, I`m going to
go after – believe me, she would not be my first choice, that I can tell


HAYES: One of the President`s accusers, former Apprentice Contestant
Summer Zervos has since sued President Trump for defamation because he
called her a liar and the President`s lawyers have been fighting a subpoena
filed in September for all documents related to allegations of assault or
misconduct. A judge in New York could decide by the end of the year
whether the case against the President can move forward. Joy Reid is my
colleague here at MSNBC and my friend and the Host of “A.M. JOY.” And –
well, Joy, were you surprised that the President decided to throw that
stone from the glass house in which he sits?

REID: You know, Chris, I wish I could say I was surprised. I was kind of
waiting for it. I had done a tweet in anticipation of it, just waiting for
him to you know, weigh in on Al Franken because Donald Trump can`t help
himself. He has no impulse control obviously. And because this is a
Democrat and he always relishes the opportunity to be able to accuse the
other side of what he, in fact, has done.

HAYES: Absolutely.

REID: I didn`t collude, you colluded. Russia didn`t want me to win, they
wanted you to win. Whatever it is that he`s guilty of, maybe it`s
something in his psychology, he cannot resist the opportunity to lash out
at someone from the other side of the ideological aisle and say, no, no,
no, you really did it. And the thing that is so incredible and I`m glad
that you played the entire – I literally was e-mailing my team saying what
Chris Hayes just showed is so important in terms of showing all the women
describing the behavior because the very thing that he`s attacking Al
Franken for, you know, gross behavior towards a woman, kissing her without
her consent and then the dumb sort of joke, you know, the photo afterwards,
but the kissing part of it is exactly what Donald Trump was proud to tell
another man that he gets to do. He actually was proud of the fact that he
gets to abuse women physically and grab them, do more than just kiss them.
He says I just kiss them. I don`t even wait. I just kiss them.

That`s what Al Franken is accused of doing. That`s what he`s accusing Al
Franken of doing and saying that Al Franken should pay for it with his job.
Donald Trump is accused 15 times of sexual assault. He`s being sued
because he called one of those victims a liar. He is a proud sexual
assaulter of women. He`s not ashamed and he`s proud of it. Why is he in a
position to keep his job if he and his supporters think Al Franken should
not? They cannot answer that question, all they can do is cry. I don`t
know whatever. They think they`re crying hypocrisy but they are the
hypocrites. At least Al Franken apologized.

HAYES: Well, one of the things that was so perverse this morning was Sarah
Huckabee Sanders this afternoon saying well, he`s admitted and the
President denies it which you know, flips everything around, right? Like
lie and deny and say it never happened and attack the women, that is what
you should do. If you admit it, then you`re inviting more scrutiny. But,
of course, that is precisely, precisely the playbook that is happening in
Alabama with Roy Moore to the last bit.

And I want to play this for you because what happened – we all remember –
you and I were covering it together, right? We were – we were there a
year ago and all these Republicans rushed to the camera and saying, oh, I
am just so upset about this. Congressman Chaffetz saying, you know, I
can`t look my daughter in the eyes. I can`t look her in the eyes. I`m so
upset about this. Of course, then voted for Donald Trump. And that`s
exactly what they`re doing in Alabama. Here`s the governor of Alabama who
said I believe the women, I believe what they`re saying is true, I`m going
to vote for Roy Moore anyway. Take a listen.


GOV. KAY IVEY (R), ALABAMA: I believe in the Republican Party and what we
stand for, and most important, we need to have a Republican in the United
States Senate to vote on the things like supreme court justices, other
appointments that the Senate has to confirm and make major decisions. And
so that`s what I plan to do, is vote for the Republican Nominee, Roy Moore.


HAYES: I mean, that`s saying – if you say I believe the women –

REID: Yes.

HAYES: – who have said this about Roy Moore and I`m voting for Roy Moore.
What you`re saying is I want a child molester, seriously, that`s what
you`re saying. I want a child molester to Represent Alabama in the Senate.

REID: Yes. This is what happens when party becomes almost a religion.
When it`s child molester is – having a child molester on the floor of the
United States Senate is better than having a Democrat, that they would
rather have someone like Donald Trump who is a braggadocios assaulter of
women, somebody who isn`t even embarrassed about being a sexual assaulter,
but better him than her. We have to have anything. We don`t care how
wicked, we don`t care how much of a liar, we don`t care how corrupt, we
don`t care what he is. This is what Republicans have essentially told us
about Donald Trump from the beginning. We don`t care how low he take this
country, how low he takes our party, what a scoundrel he is, a scam artist
he is, the con man, and literally it can be a child molester as long as
it`s a Republican.

We will accept anything. We don`t care how it damages the reputation of
our party and country, nothing comes before party, nothing, ever. Now, the
one thing you can`t say about Democrats is that Democrats threw Anthony
Weiner over the side like they just met him. Democrats at least you`ll –
you have to give them the credit that they`re ready – I mean, they`re
ready to throw Bill Clinton over the side 17 years later. But Republicans
essentially have created a religion out of their partisan affiliation and
it literally doesn`t matter what a Republican has done as long as there is
an R after his name and he`s willing to vote through those tax cuts for the
rich, they don`t care who he is. That`s a sad thing to say about your

HAYES: All right, Joy Reid, always great to have you. Thank you.

REID: Thank you.

HAYES: Catherine Rampell is a Columnist with the Washington Post,
Francesca Chambers is a White House Correspondent for the Daily Mail. And
Catherine, you know, at one point, Kellyanne Conway today I think referred
to the allegations against the President as old news. And I wanted to yell
at my T.V. set like that doesn`t matter. It`s all old news. All of this
is old news. That`s the whole point of what`s going on here. Nothing ever
has been properly resolved. So it doesn`t – you don`t get to say it`s old

say it`s old news. Just because an election happened, just because, you
know, Sarah Huckabee Sanders says, well, the people have spoken, we already
had an election and they have ruled. That is not in any way similar to
having a full investigation, to having an indictment. If you really want
to go down that road, to having any sort of jury trial, right? I mean,
there`s a reason why when there are criminal charges that are alleged, when
there are victims who claim that they have been assaulted, the way we
resolve those claims is not by having a political election, right, it`s by
having an investigation. That`s how American jurisprudence works.

HAYES: Francesca, you cover the White House and you sit in that briefing
room and I`m really curious to get your perspective on how much you think
the White House sweats this. And the context here is that was it was
interesting to me that Sarah Huckabee Sanders yesterday wanted to have
nothing to do with the Franken story because I think the people around the
President realized how exposed they are, even if the President doesn`t.
What`s your sense sitting in that room?

think you make an interesting point, even if the President doesn`t because
he obviously opened himself up to this comparison by tweeting about Al
Franken when he did, which is seemingly why the White House didn`t want to
get too involved in the Roy Moore situation because the President has also
been accused of sexually harassing women. And what was problematic for the
White House today was when Sarah Huckabee Sanders was asked what`s the
difference between the two, she didn`t say the difference is that the
President didn`t do it, and Al Franken has said he`s sorry because he did
do it. She said the difference is that Al Franken has apologized and the
President has not admitted to wrongdoing. And so I think that was a
problematic –

HAYES: That`s a great point.

CHAMBERS: – answer for this White House and that`s why you`re seeing that
answer go around pretty aggressively.

RAMPELL: That`s also – that`s also very consistent, by the way, with
pretty much everything that Donald Trump has done wrong. His philosophy
seems to be, if you admit no wrongdoing, no wrong has been done, right? If
you admit no mistake, no mistake has been made, even in the face of
incontrovertible evidence such adds being on tape. So this is not
something we should be terribly surprised by Sanders saying in that press

HAYE: Francesca, that`s a great point. I want to hang a lantern on that
idea that Sarah Huckabee Sanders doesn`t say because he didn`t do these
things. She says because –

CHAMBERS: She said that he hasn`t – she has said in the past that these
women aren`t telling the truth.

HAYES: Exactly. She called them liars, yes.

CHAMBERS: But today when she – but today when she was asked about it,
very first question, straight out of the gate in the briefing, it was we
addressed this aggressively during the campaign. There was an election as
Catherine pointed to and the American people decided. And also the
difference is Senator Franken admitted to wrongdoing and the President did
not. And that was where she took these allegations. And another point
that I`d like to make, Chris, about today`s briefing along the same exact
lines was she claimed that the President has weighed in on Roy Moore, but
that is not accurate.

HAYES: Nonsense.

CHAMBERS: What happened during the trip – because I was on this trip was
that the President was asked about it and he said, look, I`m in Asia, I`m
not watching television, I`m not looped into this sort of thing. He said
Sarah has made a statement on this on my behalf and that, you know, if the
things he says are true, then he`ll do the – if the things about him and
these women are saying are true, then he`ll do the right thing. That`s all
the President said about this. So when Sarah said yesterday and today that
the President has weighed in on this matter, the President has not weighed
in on this matter. In fact, he`s dodged questions about this on Capitol
Hill and at the White House the entire week since he got back from Asia.

HAYES: Catherine, do you think it matters still, these allegations against
the President, in the way that our politics function and the perception of
him and in the ways that I think women particularly but citizens, in
general, think about how they relate to this White House and whether they
want to see this President in power?

RAMPELL: God, I hope they still matter. You know who I would like to ask
a question of? It`s not Sarah Huckabee Sanders. I don`t believe that
she`s ever going to flip and say, you know, maybe we should believe those
women. We should be asking people like Mitch McConnell. Why do you
believe the accusers against Roy Moore and yet, you know, you don`t
apparently believe the accusers against President Trump? You get those
kinds of questions in front of influential people, you get them to respond
and these questions will absolutely matter to the American public.

HAYES: Yeah. And we`re going to post – we`ll post that montage that we
played at the top of the show, which our – the ALL IN production team did
an incredible job on. That was not me, that was them. And people should
watch that because one of the things happening I think in this moment is we
are hearing a kind of pattern to allegations with men and there is an M.O.
often. And we`ve seen that with the allegations against Roy Moore and you
hear them in the allegations against Donald Trump. You should watch those
and you should think to yourselves, does that sound credible that all of
these people who don`t know each other report the same experience.
Catherine Rampell and Francesca Chambers, thanks to you both.

RAMPELL: Thanks.

CHAMBERS: Thank you.

HAYES: Next, breaking news in the Russian backdoor overture and the
remarkable consistency with which Jared Kushner just forgets details
crucial to the Russia investigation, even under penalty of perjury. What
we`ve now learned in just two minutes.



KUSNER: I did not collude with Russia, nor do I know of anyone else in the
campaign who did so. I had no improper contacts. I have not relied on
Russian funds for my businesses and I have been fully transparent in
providing all requested information.


HAYES: Well, things are not looking good for Presidential Senior Adviser
and son-in-law Jared Kushner. As you may recall, Kushner has repeatedly
had to update his security clearance forms because he did not disclose his
foreign contacts before the inauguration. And they were hard contacts to
forget, frankly. Under penalty of perjury, Kushner reportedly neglected to
disclose a meeting with Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak where he proposed
a back channel between Trump`s transition team and the Kremlin. Also under
penalty of perjury, Kushner reportedly declined to disclose a secret
meeting with the head of a sanctioned Russian bank, one of more than 100
foreign contacts that Kushner, again, under penalty of perjury, did not
initially disclose.

Tonight, we have breaking news about more undisclosed Kushner contacts with
Russians. Two major developments tonight with the reporters who got the
story. We begin with NBC News Investigative Reporter Ken Dilanian, who has
just published a piece with Carol Lee reporting that Kushner failed to
disclose what lawmakers call a Russian backdoor overture and dinner invite
involving a banker who`s been accused of links to Russian organized crime.
Ken, what can you tell us?

went out yesterday from the Senate Judiciary Committee accusing Jared
Kushner of withholding information about what they call this Russian
backdoor overture. And as you can imagine, we immediately started about
trying to figure out what that was. And Carol Lee and I have learned today
that it involved an e-mail chain about a proposed meeting by a Russian
official named Aleksander Torshin who is a Deputy central – Head of the
Russian Central Bank. He`s a former senator and he`s been accused by
Spanish prosecutors of having Mafia ties which he denies. He`s repeatedly
very close to Vladimir Putin.

He was proposing – he was actually suggesting that he had a message he
wanted to carry to Trump from Putin, and Jared Kushner`s lawyer just now
put out a statement about this so we know that Kushner responded, according
to his lawyer, pass on this. A lot of people come claiming to carry
messages, very few were able to verify, for now, I think we decline such
meetings. But, Chris, we know that this same man told Bloomberg News that
he had dinner with Donald Trump Jr. around the same time at a meeting on
the sidelines of a National Rifle Association conference. So this is
another example of a senior high-level Russian seeking to infiltrate Donald
Trump`s inner circle and an example of Kushner not coming clean about what
he knew about it to congressional investigators.

HAYES: All right. So I should say Kushner`s lawyer says basically we
didn`t think this was germane to the document production request and also
we passed on it, so what`s the big deal?


HAYES: Just to zoom out here, I want to be clear about this. You`ve got
someone coming to the campaign saying we`ve got a guy who wants to set up a
meeting possibly between Trump and Putin or pass a message, or how can we
get these people together? And he ends up, despite whatever happens in
this e-mail chain, he ends up sitting next to Don Jr. at a dinner at an NRA
conference later that year?

DILANIAN: According to him. Now Don Jr. has said he remembers it
differently, that maybe the Russian was at a different table, but Don Jr.
acknowledges he spoke to a Russian that evening. So, yes – and
Congressional investigators, Chris, know very little about how that meeting
was actually set up. So I think that`s an active part of the
investigation. Another really important thing here, Chris, is that Jared
Kushner told both Congressional committees that he did not recall any
contacts between the campaign and WikiLeaks. And we learned this week that
in fact Kushner has forwarded an e-mail from Don Jr. about Don Jr.`s
Twitter contacts with WikiLeaks and Jared Kushner forwarded that e-mail on
to Hope Hicks. So he is under pressure to come back to Congress and
explain that discrepancy, Chris.

HAYES: All right, Ken Dilanian, thanks for being with me tonight. On that
WikiLeaks story, I want to – this week we learned that Donald Trump Jr.
had exchanged message during the campaign with WikiLeaks and then e-mailed
senior campaign officials, as Ken was just saying, including Jared Kushner,
about those exchanges, right? So there`s an e-mail saying oh, I`ve been
talking to WikiLeaks.

We also learned that Don Jr. e-mail is among the e-mails that Kushner,
again, did not disclose to the Senate Judiciary Committee. Kushner`s
lawyer address that WikiLeaks e-mail tonight offering this explanation for
not disclosing it. A communication which he was a copied recipient was not
about Russia contacts by him or apparently anyone else, was not responsive
to any request about Mr. Kushner`s own contacts. Here with more on that
story is Jenna McLaughlin, Intelligence Reporter with Foreign Policy
Magazine. What`s the significance of the fact that the contacts with
WikiLeaks were forwarded to campaign folks including Jared Kushner?

mean, the significance of that is that Jared Kushner saw them, he was aware
of them and he passed them onto Hope Hicks. I mean, we see with Kushner,
he might be being selective with his words. He might be saying oh, well, I
didn`t actually communicate. I was just aware of it and forward it on.

HAYES: Now, there is a really key part of this which is that your
reporting suggests that during his Capitol Hill testimony, he was actually
asked about contacts with WikiLeaks, is that correct?

MCLAUGHLIN: Yes, that is correct. And in several different sessions, he
denied that he or anyone else in the campaign had had any contact with
WikiLeaks or Julian Assange.

HAYES: OK. That – so I just want to be clear on that. So he repeatedly
before Congress – and I don`t know if he was under oath or not – but
before Congress repeatedly said no one in the campaign nor he had any
contact with Julian Assange, is that right?

MCLAUGHLIN: Yes, multiple times he said that.

HAYES: That`s not true.


HAYES: And not only is it not true, we know from the e-mail trail he would
have cause to know that`s not true because he was on e-mails from Don Jr.
saying, I`m talking to Julian, right?

MCLAUGHLIN: Yes, absolutely. He was certainly aware of that. And I mean,
maybe he has a different definition of communicating with WikiLeaks or
communicating with Assange, but judging from these previous stories from
this week, it sure seems like he may have been lying to Congress, which is
against the law.

HAYES: Yes. I want to be clear on that, it is – it is a federal crime to
lie to Congress. It`s not often enforced or prosecuted. He wasn`t under
oath but you`re not supposed to do that.

MCLAUGHLIN: Absolutely you`re not supposed to do that, whether it`s under
oath or not, it is still against the law.

HAYES: It does seem to me he has racked up a lot of things that he forgot,
am I wrong?

MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. I mean, it seems like he has a very selective memory and
no one has really asked him either about his ownership of the New York
Observer, which was also as per my story this week, a pretty favorable
outlet towards the WikiLeaks stories.

HAYES: That`s interesting. Jenna McLaughlin, thanks for making time

MCLAUGHLIN: Thanks so much.

HAYES: Up next, remember this guy who set up Don Jr.`s Trump Tower meeting
with the Russians? He`s back.


HAYES: It was the first concrete revelation showing the Trump campaign
sought to collude with Russia to get dirt on Hillary Clinton. And it came
from an email exchange with Donald Trump Jr.

On June 3rd, 2016, Trump Jr. received an email that claimed the so-called
Russian crowned prosecutor, an office that doesn`t exist, quote, offered
to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information
that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be
very useful to your father. This is obviously very high-level and
sensitive information, but it`s part of Russia and its government`s support
for Mr. Trump.

Trump Jr. jumped at the chance to get dirt on his dad`s political opponent
from a foreign adversary, writing in part, if it`s what you say, I love it,
especially later in the summer.

Those emails eventually led to a June 9 meeting with a Russian lawyer and
others in
Trump Tower. That meeting was attended by Donald Trump Jr. and Jared
Kushner, now a White House
senior adviser, and former Trump campaign chair Paul Manafort, recently

Much about that meeting remains unknown, but we soon could be learning more
because the guy who set it all up, the guy who was on the other end of
those emails with Trump Jr., he is apparently willing to speak to the
Robert Mueller investigation.

NBC News reporting tonight that while nothing is officially on the
calendar, a source close to
the flamboyant publicist Rob Goldstone says he has been communicating with
Robert Mueller`s office
through his lawyer.

And now Goldstone who now lives in Bangkok is apparently ready to meet with
the special counsel`s team. Sources telling NBC News, quote, expect he
will travel to the United States at some point in the near future as one
put it.

Joyce Vance, a former federal prosecutor and MSNBC legal analyst Nick
Ackerman is a
former Watergate prosecutor.

Nick, let`s start with Goldstone. Why is he an important witness for
Mueller to talk to?

because he was present
at that meeting. He`s also the person who said that, one, the Russian
government is backing Donald
Trump and supporting his campaign, and, two, he`s the one that notified Don
Jr. that the Russians had incriminating dirt on Hillary Clinton.

Now all of this really becomes to the forefront this week with all of these
new revelations
about WikiLeaks, about the fact that Don Jr. was having contact with
WikiLeaks, that Kushner knew about it. The reason that WikiLeaks is so
significant is because they are the organization that released
the stolen Clinton emails.

The dirt, I am convinced that Ron Goldstone was talking about was those
Clinton emails that
were stolen. And I think as a prosecutor my theory is very simple –
Goldstone or somebody else brought those emails to that meeting on June 9.
The Donald Trump campaign realized these were too hot to handle. They had
to be released through another source and that source was WikiLeaks.

And if you look at what we know now, over the course of time after that
meeting, two weeks later Roger Stone has contact with Gucifer 2.0, the
Russian hacker, and then WikiLeaks, and then we know that during that
campaign there was an ongoing campaign between Donald Jr. and WikiLeaks.
And the – in response to that, he was actually going out there, sending
out a URL so people could look at those emails.

HAYES: Right.

ACKERMAN: Donald Sr. was talking about those emails and, you know, what
we`re seeing now is all of this allegation of conspiracy and collusion
coming together among the WikiLeaks, the Trump campaign and the Russian

HAYES: I feel like I just got the Ackerman closing argument here.

The Goldstone point, Joyce – I want to talk about a few things, but just
to follow up on Nick`s
point – I mean, Goldstone – the one line that has stuck with me of all
of the different revelation as in
some ways the most incriminating and the thing I think I would remember the
most in real-time is Goldstone saying to Don Jr. the Russian government`s
support for your father, that that was a thing that he put in an email on
the record that had to just be very memorable to anyone that encountered
that sentiment, particularly when it became clear the Russian government
was hacking various people`s

JOYCE VANCE, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It`s absolutely true, Chris, and
it`s really important to remember that it`s a crime for a foreign
government to make a contribution to a United States election. So it`s
just remarkable that this didn`t send up all sorts of red flags in the
campaign. There should have been an immediate full stop on any additional
conversation. And instead we have this remarkable, you know, if it`s what
you say, I love it communication back followed by
the meeting.

So at this point we have what`s an important witness, a material witness.
He provides Mueller certainly with fuller context for the meeting and its
setup, but also perhaps with critically important information about Russian
involvement because you have to remember that although we`re very focused
on the Trump family and Trump associates, there is also potentially a crime
here involving the
Russians who were attempting to inappropriately interfere with the United
States election.

HAYES: Yeah. Let me ask you this about Kushner. I`m going to ask you
both this same question. If you`re on the other side from Jared Kushner`s
lawyers after all of these failures to disclose, oversights, et cetera,
Nick, what are you thinking about what they are up to?

ACKERMAN: I think it`s pretty obvious. Jared Kushner is up to obstructing
the congressional committees. He`s not being forthcoming. He`s not
telling the truth. He`s not providing the documents
that are relevant. They all have to come out from some other source in
order for anybody to learn about them. He`s lied multiple times on his
national security clearance form. He hasn`t told the truth about all of
the various Russian contacts that he`s had meetings with. That in and of
itself is a crime.

The fact that they are hiding something about WikiLeaks and the fact of
these stolen documents leads me to believe that we probably have violations
of the federal computer crimes statute, the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act
that makes it illegal and criminal to deal in passwords as Donald Trump Jr.
received such a password that was stolen on a particular anti-Trump

They`re also dealing in stolen emails, which is a state felony in New York.
So there are a whole series of criminal acts that may wind up being proven
out of what is coming out just this week as we
start to put it all together.

HAYES: Joyce, as a prosecutor when you`ve got someone across from you in
your cross-hairs and you get this sort of incrementalism of revelation like
we`ve seen, right, is that all there is? Yeah. Then they come back, that
wasn`t all there is.

Is that all there is? Totally.

What are you thinking as a prosecutor?

VANCE: So, I`m expecting that as a prosecutor. In every case where I`ve
sat across the table from a medium level drug dealer, a top level drug
dealer, it`s always incremental truth telling. You never get it all at
once. It`s the hallmark of the guilty.

And I agree with Nick there is a lot to look at here involving the hacks,
but we also have Kushner`s false statements on his security forms. Those
look pretty cut and dry.

HAYES: Yeah.

VANCE: And now if the reporting that we`re hearing tonight is true, that
he testified under oath or perhaps even not under oath in front of
congressional committees and said there had been no contact between
WikiLeaks and the campaign, when he not only received emails, but
presumably read them, because we`re told he forwarded them onto Hope Hicks,
he`s in a lot of trouble and those are pretty easy counts to make before we
even get into Nick`s panoply of charges.

HAYES: All right, Joyce Vance, Nick Ackerman, thanks for your time.

ACKERMAN: Thank you.

HAYES: Still ahead, from a massive oil leak from the Keystone Pipeline to
this photo shoot
with the Treasury secretary and his wife, the week that was the Trump

And next, challenge accepted in tonight`s Thing One, Thing Two right after


HAYES: Thing One tonight, this week we played the video of CEOs directly
refuting one of the central claims of the Trump tax plan. White House
chief economic adviser Gary Cohn has argued
that giving huge permanent tax cuts to corporations actually benefits
average Americans, arguing CEOs will eagerly use that extra cash to invest,
create jobs, and raise wages.

But this week, the Wall Street Journal`s CEO council conference with Gary
Cohn on stage, not many actual CEOs agree.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you plan to increase investment – your company`s
investment – capital investment? Just a show of hands if tax reform goes
through. OK.

GARY COHN, WHITE HOUSE ECONOMIC ADVIISER: Why aren`t the other hands up?

Why aren`t more hands up?


HAYES: Why aren`t more hands up? That`s a big deal because it`s one of
the key selling points if not the key selling point of their tax plan. So
today, chief White House economist Kevin Hassett was asked that question.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gary Cohn said why aren`t there more hands going up.
Can you answer that?

I went on a little bit after Gary Cohn. And when they asked that question
it was kind of hard for me, because like here there are really bright
lights, but even brighter there. And so I couldn`t quite see how many
hands there were. But when I was there, it looked like maybe half the
hands went up. And I think if you go back and look, it could be that
people had time to think about it.


HAYES: Well, we did look. Kevin Hasset`s audience estimation skills is
Thing Two in 60 seconds.


HAYES: When White House chief economist Kevin Hassett first sat down at
The Wall Street
Journal CEO Council Conference, the moderator did a poll of the CEOs in the


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please put up your hand if you think the economy is
going to sustain that pace of growth of 3 percent for the months ahead.

HASSETT: I`d say about half.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`d give it closer to a third, but we`ll say a third to
a half.


HAYES: OK. So a little disagreement there. Kevin Hassett says half, the
moderator says a third, but they also redid a poll from earlier. Remember
that, when Gary Cohn was on stage and just a smattering of CEOs said the
extra money from the Trump corporate tax cut would encourage them to invest
more, one of the central arguments for the tax plan in the first place.

So, surely this time the answer would be overwhelming, right?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Again, please raise their hand if you`re planning to
pick up your own pace of investment in the next year.

About the same people, a third to a half…

HASSETT: At least 70 percent I`d say.

So, the lights are bright.


HAYES: A third to a half or if you estimate with a folksy laugh, maybe 70


HASSETT: About the same people.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Another third to a half.

HASSETT: At least 70 percent, I`d say. The lights are bright.


HAYES: A contentious Senate Finance Committee hearing on the Republican
tax cut bill
wrapped up last night with a battle over what that tax cut is really all


SEN. SHERROD BROWN, (D) OHIO: I just think it would be nice just tonight
before we go home to just acknowledge, well, this tax cut really is not for
the middle class, it`s for the rich. And that whole thing about higher
wages, well, it`s a good selling point, but we know companies don`t just
gives away higher wages, they just don`t give away higher wages just
because they have more money. Corporations are sitting on a lot of money
now. They`re sitting on a lot of profits now. I don`t see wages going up.
So, just spare us the bank shot, spare us the sarcasm and the satire.

SEN. ORRIN HATCH, (R) PENNSYLVANIA: I`m going to spare it, but I`m just
going to say to you that I come from the poor people and I`ve been here
working my whole stinking career for people who don`t have a chance and I
really resent anybody saying that I`m just doing this for the rich. Give
me a break. I get kind of sick and tired of it.

True, it`s a nice political play.

BROWN: Well, Mr. chairman.

HATCH: But it`s not true.

SHERROD: With all due respect, I get sick and tired of the richest people
in this country getting richer…

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Regular order, Mr. Chairman.

Regular order.

SHERROD: We do a tax cut over and over and over again. How many times do
we do this before we learn this?


HATCH: Listen, I`ve honored you by allowing you to spout off here. If we
work together, we can pull this country out of every mess its in. And we
could do a lot of the things that you`re talking about, too.

And I think I`ve got a reputation of having worked together with…

BROWN: Let`s start with CHIP.

HATCH: I`m not starting with CHIP. I did it – I`ve done it for years.
I`ve got more…

BROWN: Start with CHIP today.

HATCH: I`ve got more bills passed than everybody on this committee put

Now, all I can say is I like you personally very much, but I`m telling you,
this bull crap that you guys throw out here really gets old after awhile.
And to do it right at the end of this…


HAYES: A reminder that Senator Sherrod Brown`s reference to CHIP is the
Children`s Health Insurance Program and that 9 million children in low
income families might lose that coverage because congress missed the
September 30 deadline to renew it.

As for all those poor people Senator Hatch suggests he`s been fighting for,
a non-partisan analysis says the Senate tax plan would raise taxes on the
poor by 2021.

And just to boost the Republican control and government`s optics even
further, here`s Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin and his wife posing with
newly minted money to commemorate the first batch of bills bearing
Mnuchin`s signature.

The insane week that was in our new insane reality next.


HAYES: Donald Trump is the president, which means that in this crazy week
we haven`t even had a chance to mention that the Keyston Pipeline leaked
210,000 gallons of oil in South Dakota yesterday.

Quote, “just days before regulators in neighboring Nebraska decide whether
to grant the final permit to begin construction of the Keystone XL, which
would be operated by the same company, that is the same Keystone XL that
Trump has always supported tweeting out two years ago, so sad that Obama
rejected Keystone Pipeline, thousands of jobs, good for the environment, no

Chris Lu is the former deputy Labor Secretary under President Barack Obama
and MSNBC contributor Josh Barro, senior editor at Business Insider.

And Chris, I want to start with you because Keystone, it was a very big
controversial issue in that White House when you worked in it, when you
were cabinet secretary, what does it say to you to watch this spill happen
as XL sort of starts to move towards possible construction approval?

CHRIS LU, FORMER DEPUTY LABOR SECRETARY: Well, we were warned about this.
Environmentalists warned about this for years and it`s one of the reasons
why the Obama administration decided not to go forward with this.

And inexplicably during the campaign, Donald Trump said that approving the
pipeline would be
better for the environment. He clearly took no time to understand anything
about tar sands oil and what happens when it spills near aquifers.

And, look, I was the deputy secretary of labor, so I like when we create
jobs, but the number of permanent jobs created by Keystone is 35. And that
simply doesn`t justify the environmental risk that we saw today over the
last couple of days.

HAYES: Yeah, and we might see more as time goes on.

Josh, you`ve been – I feel like in this week that, you know, between Roy
Moore and Al Franken
and the president. You know, this major piece of legislation passed out of
the House, the tax bill, we saw that contentious mark-up in the Senate and
the most remarkable thing to me is the distributional weight of this Senate
bill. And you saw Orrin Hatch get so mad at Sherrod Brown. But it`s just
weird to take umbridge at something that`s just manifestly the true thing
about the bill that you`re passing.

JOSH BARRO, BUSINESS INSIDER: Yeah, the weird thing is here, they`re
having a disagreement about a factual question about what`s in the bill,
and it`s partly because the Republicans
impute something that`s not written in there, which is to say some parts of
this bill are permanent and some of them are temporary. They don`t run for
the full ten-year budget window because they don`t have enough money to do
all the middle income tax increases for the whole 10-year period.

And what Republicans say, and I think they believe this, is well congress
will come back in the
future and extend those things. We will take care of those middle income
families and extend those tax cuts.

Because when you look at the distribution tables, they look a lot better in
the first year than they do in the 10th year or the 11th year of this
package. And Republicans say well we`ll come back, we`ll change the rules
after the fact, so it looks more like that going forward.

Now, Democrats perfectly reasonably say well you didn`t write that into the
law, and that`s going to depend on political and economic considerations at
the time that those decisions have to be made, and sometimes temporary tax
cuts are temporary.

There`s also sort of exploding stuff in this bill, changes in the way
inflation adjustments are done that sound small and technical, but they
amount to small tax increases on ordinary families every year forever.

So, I think Republicans are focused on that year one thing, not owning up
to what`s coming in
future years. Democrats are really focused on what`s in future years.

HAYES: So one thing that unites this tax bill, which a lot of people have
pointed to the ways it would benefit the Trump family and the Trump heirs,
as much as a billion dollars, is this other piece of news which flew a
little under the radar which is the Trump administration to lift ban on
trophy elephant imports which you think to yourself, well, that`s sort of a
weird policy. The president tonight tweeting that he`s put it under
review. They`re not going to implement the lifting of the ban right away,
they`re going to review it. And the reason that that connects to the tax
bill is because of course the president`s sons are big game hunters and we
know how much they personally like to do trophy hunting.

It sometimes can look a little like the entire White House is being run for
the benefit of the
Trump family, Chris.

LU: Well, that`s exactly right. There`s not a lot of Americans clambering
to do trophy hunting
for elephants and lions, except for Donald Jr. and Eric.

And clearly, he did this for his sons. There was a widespread backlash,
including by the chairman, the Republican chairman of the House Foreign
Affairs Committee. And he finally backtracked on this, which was a
sensible thing.

That may be the only good piece of news that happened this week.

HAYES: Well, that – Josh, I couldn`t believe they backtracked. My
question is like on the tax bill, do the politics of this, which look
terrible right now in the polling distribution, do they matter ultimately?

BARRO: Well, yeah, I think the politics are going to matter a lot in the
election. I mean, the polling shows that both this bill is very unpopular
and then when you ask people do you think you`re going to get a tax cut
from it, only a very small fraction of hte public says that they believe
they will personally benefit from this bill. And I think that`s toxic.

I mean, you can look in other countries. It was a tax reform that did in
Margaret Thatcher in the UK. People notice these things when they affect
their daily bottom line a lot – almost everyone files an income tax
return. It`s much larger than the number of people who buy insurance
through the Obamacare individual market, and that was an enormous issue.

So, yeah, I think this – I think Republicans still pressure from donors.
But I think there`s likely to be very serious voter backlash to this.

HAYES: It`s a great point.

You`re going to notice whether you`re paying more taxes or not. You`re
going to notice.

Chris Lu and Josh Barro, thank you both.

LU: Thank you.

HAYES; That is All In for this evening. Good night.


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