Menendez corruption trial jury deadlocked Transcript 11/13/17 All In with Chris Hayes

Rebecca Traister, Reza Aslan, Julia Ioffe

Date: November 13, 2017
Guest: Rebecca Traister, Reza Aslan, Julia Ioffe

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: – for our country, for our ability to live
together, for leaders with a capacity for empathy, for unity and for moral
authority. Bobby`s spirit survived the 60s. Had he lived, Bobby would
turn 92 next week. And so much of America`s recent history would have been
so different. For one thing, the American war in Vietnam would have been
much shorter. My book on Robert Kennedy offers more than resistance to
today`s direction, it offers defiance. That`s HARDBALL for now. “ALL IN”
starts right now.




HAYES: New accusations in Alabama.

NELSON: If you tell anyone about this, no one will ever believe you.

HAYES: Another woman comes forward saying Roy Moore sexually assaulted her
when she was 16.

NELSON: Mr. Moore attacked me when I was a child. I did nothing to
deserve this sexual attack.

HAYES: Tonight the harrowing story of Roy Moore`s latest accuser.
Republicans run for the exits as they scheme to save his Senate seat.


HAYES: And the White House floats A Jeff Sessions appointment after Roy
Moore wins.

ROY MOORE, ALABAMA SENATE CANDIDATE: This article is a prime example of
fake news.

HAYES: Then, as the President defends Putin.

Putin really feels, and he feels strongly that he did not meddle in our

HAYES: Explosive new reporting from the Atlantic`s Julia Ioffe on Donald
Trump Jr.`s secret campaign connection with WikiLeaks.

TRUMP: I love WikiLeaks.

HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes, and we are now
witnessing in real time one of the most spectacular political and moral
implosions in recent political memory. Not just of a single politician,
but of an entire political party. Today a fifth woman came forward to
accuse Roy Moore, the Republican Senate Candidate in Alabama`s Special
Election next month of pursuing her when she was a teenager and he was an
assistant district attorney in his 30s. At a press conference today,
Beverly Young Nelson said she was inspired by the four women who told the
Washington Post on the record last week about their own run-ins with Moore
as teenagers decades ago to recount her story of being violently sexually
assaulted at age 16 by the man who could still be Alabama`s next U.S.

According to Nelson, Moore was a regular at the restaurant where she worked
in high school. And after flirting with her over a period of time and
signing her yearbook, one night he offered her a ride home. A warning,
Nelson`s account is disturbing.


NELSON: He stopped the car, and he parked his car in between the dumpster
and the back of the restaurant, where there were no lights. The area was
dark and it was deserted. I was alarmed, and I Immediately asked him what
he was doing. Instead of answering my questions, Mr. Moore reached over
and began groping me and putting his hands on my breasts. I tried to open
my car door to leave, but he reached over and he locked it so I could not
get out. I tried fighting him off while yelling at him to stop. But
instead of stopping, he began squeezing my neck, attempting to force my
head on to his crotch. I continued to struggle. I was determined that I
was not going to allow him to force me to have sex with him. I was
terrified. He was also trying to pull my shirt off. I thought that he was
going to rape me.


HAYES: According to Nelson, Moore eventually allowed her to open the car
door and escape, calling on the Senate Judiciary Committee to investigate
Moore`s conduct and offering to testify under oath. Nelson said politics
played no part in her decision to come forward.


NELSON: My husband and I supported Donald Trump for President. This has
nothing whatsoever to do with the Republicans or the Democrats. It has
everything to do with Mr. Moore`s sexual assault when I was a teenager.


HAYES: Nelson brought with her a copy of that yearbook that she says Moore
signed. The inscription reads to a sweeter, more beautiful girl I could
not say Merry Christmas, Christmas 1977, love Roy Moore, D.A. According to
Nelson, the incident in Moore`s car, he explicitly invoked his job as
district attorney to emphasize his power over her.


NELSON: He said you`re just a child and he said I am the district attorney
of Etowah County. And if you tell anyone about this, no one will ever
believe you.


HAYES: That press conference took place this afternoon, but it was first
announced this morning sometime around 10:30 a.m. By noon, Senate Majority
Leader Mitch McConnell was suddenly ready to cut Roy Moore loose, going way
past his earlier statement that Moore should withdraw from the race if the
allegations are true.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe these allegations to be true?

MCCONNELL: I believe the women, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you calling for him to step down from that Senate

MCCONNELL: I do. I think he should step aside.


HAYES: After the press conference, the Campaign Arm of the Senate
Republican Conference went even further. Chairman Cory Gardner, Senator
from Colorado calling for the full Senate to expel Moore if he should win
the Special Election on December 12th. But Moore and his allies remain
defiant, copying the same playbook used by another candidate accused of
serial sexual misconduct who went on to win the election just over a year
ago. In a statement tonight, Moore called the new allegations “absolutely


MOORE: I never did what she said I did. I don`t even know the woman. I
don`t know anything about her. I don`t even know where the restaurant is
or was. If this is a political maneuver, it has nothing to do with
reality. It`s all about politics.


HAYES: He doesn`t know where the restaurant is but we should note here
that the name of the restaurant, Old Hickory House was included in the
inscription in Nelson`s yearbook from Roy Moore, D.A. Responding to
McConnell`s comments this morning, the Moore campaign tweeted, “the person
who should step aside is Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell. He has
failed conservatives and must be replaced, #drain the swamp.” Moore has
threatened to sue the Washington Post for its reporting last week and
hinted he has some kind of exculpatory information to reveal.

According to Axios, Moore`s allies at Breitbart News have sent two
reporters to Alabama in an effort to discredit Moore`s accusers. The one
person we have yet to hear from, the President of the United States, whose
spokesperson told NBC News the President will look at this issue after he
returns from his trip overseas. Rebecca Traister, Writer at Large for New
York Magazine is without a new piece on the post-Harvey Weinstein
reckoning. That is a fantastic read. Your reaction to that press
conference today.

stunning press conference. It was incredibly painful to watch. It was
clear – one of the things that was hard to think about as you`re listening
to her tell this story. It has been 40 years. She hasn`t talked about
this. She didn`t talk about it when he won the primary. The man – she
didn`t – it`s taken all of this time to get her to be able to tell the
story that you – that is obviously incredibly painful for her, that must
have been formative and life-altering. And this man has become a candidate
for the U.S. Senate and that didn`t prompt her to come forward. And here
she was finally telling this story. I think it`s symptomatic of the way in
which our view of the world is being shifted very radically and very
uncomfortable for everybody.

And I think the points about politics that she comes from a Republican –
she is a Republican. Her husband voted for Trump, that she made clear this
is not born out of politics that was true for the other three women. The
Washington Post was very clear last week in saying these were Trump voters.
These are Republicans. They did not come forth with any kind of
ideological cudgel. The point is new things are being revealed and
understood about how power has been wielded, especially sexually. It is
part of a conversation that obviously has exploded over the past six weeks.
And here it is in that incredibly painful story.

HAYES: And also, what I was struck by was that line you`re a child, I`m
district attorney, no one will believe you. And here she is telling us
with the expectation that she – that now 40 years later she will be
believed and I think the effect.

TRAISTER: It is a gamble, though. Let me say –

HAYES: Usually, yes.

TRAISTER: It`s a huge gamble. So we are at this moment where maybe she
has been persuaded by the tenor of the conversation, by the fact that for
the first time in decades, in generations, we are taking these kinds of
power abuses and sexual abuses seriously and putting them on the front
pages of newspapers, and talking about what they mean structurally as far
as gender imparity and inequities And yes, we`re taking it seriously for
the first time. But let me tell you, we took this seriously a year ago.
We talked about this 20 women, more than 20 women accused Donald Trump of
assault or harassment.

Donald Trump was caught confessing to be able to – about being able to
grab any women, you know, if he wanted to. It didn`t matter. He was still
elected. Arnold – there`s this piece about the women who covered Arnold
Schwarzenegger who was accused by multiple women of being groped. He was
elected governor of California. There is a long history in the United
States of women coming forward with stories like this not being believed.
He has promised 40 years ago being made manifest in the fact that, and he
is trying this right now, Roy Moore is saying this is false news.

HAYES: It is literally the Trump playbook.


HAYES: Discredit, fake news, attempt to discredit the women, threaten a
lawsuit. I mean –

TRAISTER: It is all Trump.

HAYES: It is literally Trump`s playbook.

TRAISTER: And Donald Trump won a year ago. And he now controls the courts
and the agencies that determine how these kinds of crimes are going to be
dealt with in workplaces and in criminal courts for lifetime appointments.

HAYES: There`s two pieces across today that I want to get your feedback on
because they really remind me of the pre-Weinstein reporting, which is that
once Weinstein – other allegations came out – there was all this back
reporting saying – and you wrote a great piece about this – this
(INAUDIBLE). Here`s first the New Yorker saying, locals were troubled by
Roy Moore`s interactions with teen girls at the Gadsden Mall. And then I
think crucially,, local outlet with locally sourced quotes from
folks in Gadsden basically saying, Moore`s predatory behavior at mall
restaurants, not a secret. This guy has been a public guy for 40 years.
And 40 years later, you have folks in his hometown in small town of Alabama
saying oh, yeah, people knew that Roy Moore used to cruise the mall.

TRAISTER: This is symptomatic across the board. This is why these stories
haven`t come out until now. This is what women and in some cases men have
been living with for all of our lifetimes and for our parents and our
grandparents and great-grandparents lifetimes that these power imbalances
meant these rumors could exist. These – the whisper networks could exist.
We could all sort of know that these guys were doing these things but
whenever people talked about it, it was laughed off, it was ignored.
Sometimes it could be reported, it could exist as a rumor everybody could
nudge each other, but it didn`t matter. They kept on getting the jobs.
They kept on getting elected. Again, that just happened. So there`s been
– that is symptomatic of why when this explosion is happening, it feels
like it`s happening in all these different directions and oh my God, there
are so many stories. It`s because there are thousands of stories that have
been smothered and suffocated for our lifetimes.

HAYES: Rebecca Traister who has a fantastic piece in the New York
Magazine. I really recommend. Thank you for being here.

TRAISTER: Thank you.

HAYES: Reza Aslan is a Professor at the University of California,
Riverside, Author of God: A Human History which is just out, and Michael
Steele former Chairman of the RNC and MSNBC Political Analyst. Michael,
I`ll start with you. It seems pretty clear that this sort of institutional
level a lot of Republicans decided to cut off Roy Moore today. I should
note the RNC still has a joint fundraising agreement with Moore. They`ve
not backed out of it. It also has 11 field operatives on the ground in
Alabama. Should they be pulling out of that?

MICHAEL STEELE, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: I think they should immediately.
I think the senatorial committee has begun to do that as well. And it`s
appropriate. I think Beverly`s comment today, her testimony if you will
today not only important and riveting but definitive. And I think for
anyone – and you saw this, Chris, with the number of Republicans making
very clear now where they stand on this. To not be clear as to where they
should stand on this will have some real problems down the road. Setting
that aside, I think the Party right now needs to distance itself. It`s not
even distancing, it is total Heisman. It is like a rejection, a push-off
from this campaign which is a national embarrassment to the country and to
the party.

HAYES: Reza, you wrote in the New York Times about sort of the people that
were still supporting Roy Moore, particularly among evangelical Christians.
There`s been some amazing data about the percentages of evangelicals who
feel it`s fine for a candidate, they support to have personal moral
failings. 50 pastors signed letter support for Roy Moore. I should say
that was before today`s allegation. What do you make of that?

you`re talking about is that in the span of a single election cycle,
evangelicals in this country, white evangelicals went from being the group
that was most likely to say that a politician`s public morality matters to
now being the group that is least likely to say that. And, again, this is
partly the Trump effect. I mean, I think the same where Trump has
transformed the Republican Party, he`s turned a large swath of American
evangelicalism into kind of his own personal cult if you will. And I think
that these people really see, and you can hear it in the rhetoric when they
say I would rather have a child molester than a Democrat.

HAYES: Which are like literal quotes.

ASLAN: The literal quotes that we`re hearing. You can see how this
mentality is starting to just affect the very core of American

HAYES: Well, and that`s – and Michael, that`s what is sort of remarkable
about the situation that the Republican Party finds itself in. You have
man who`s now been credibly accused of molesting a child, of attempting to
rape a 16-year-old who is now the party`s nominee. It`s too late for his
name to come off the ballot. So there is that problem but there`s also the
fact that a big chunk of Alabama Republicans think that he`s either they`re
lying about him or they still support him anyway. And if you come tell him
that you know, Mitch McConnell pulled his support, they don`t care. And
Donald Trump has yet to weigh in because there`s stuff I think to his mind
on both sides of the ledger.

STEELE: Yes. And I think when the President does weigh in, and there`s
already some indications tonight about how the President, at least some of
his team are looking at this, that they`re looking for solution that is
going to be the least disruptive to the process, if you will. And that
would include you know, the President sort of making it very clear that
maybe we`ll point the Attorney General back to his seat should Roy Moore
get elected. But, yes, there`s a new reality coming to bear here for
Republicans, the White House, the President in particular when he gets back
here to the United States that will have to be addressed.

There is no hiding from this. There is no play indicating it. There is no
more excuse-making if, but, when, then. This is you`re either definitively
clear that Roy Moore should not be seated as a UNITED STATES Senator, as I
am and many other Republicans are, or you`re going to backslide your way in
making excuses and to be honest with you, we have no use for that in the
Republican Party.

ASLAN: I think Mr. Steele is right in the sense that the GOP is trying to
put a Band-Aid on this problem. But this is a systemic issue that is
rotting the very core of the GOP and it`s a problem that they created on
their own by marrying – this was Steve Bannon`s entire purpose, right, by
marrying –

HAYES: This is the Bannon guy who called Roy Moore a righteous – a
righteous man.

ASLAN: Steve Bannon has said publicly that he wants to manipulate the
Christian right in this country to marry it with the alt-right and to
create this group whose anxieties and whose fears about being left behind
by the progress of society can be used to further Trump`s agenda. And the
GOP has fallen for it and this is the reckoning.

STEELE: Hey, Chris?


STEELE: Can I adjust that point really quick that Reza just raised?

HAYES: Please do.

STEELE: The backstory on where the Evangelical Christians are on this is
really straightforward. This is all about the supreme court. This is all
about the President and staying strong with the President so that
appointments can be made that can reverse the roe versus wade decisions,
that can push back on the gay marriage decisions and the other social
agendas that have found some credence with the current supreme court. So
that`s what holds a lot of these evangelicals in place –

HAYES: Absolutely.

STEELE: – which in my view, well, I won`t get into that. I just think
that –

HAYES: Well, no, I want your view. I mean, what do you think of that?

STEELE: I just think that it`s just – it`s stupid! I mean, you cannot
forsake morality if you have been preaching and judging the country for the
last 40 years on their behavior, their lifestyles who they love, who they
don`t love, what they do, what they don`t say, and then all of the sudden
because you want a supreme court appointment, you`re going to throw all of
that away? To me is just the height of hypocrisy.

ASLAN: There`s one thing that is very important in this conversation that
we are primarily talking about white evangelicals. 81 percent of white
evangelicals voted for Donald Trump. That`s a record, as you know but 67
percent of evangelicals of color supported Hillary Clinton. These are
people who believe the same thing, who hold the same theology –

HAYES: Right, same faith tradition.

ALSAN: – but have a different skin tone. Let`s not forget the racial

HAYES: Well, and Michael, I mean, here`s the last thing on this. I`m
watching now, you know, I`m watching Republicans attempt to kind of solve a
Rubik`s cube of like, well we have Roy Moore and he`s accused of this, but
we want the Senate seat. And it`s almost getting ridiculous. It`s getting
this like more and more outlandish like, you vote for him but then we`ll
expel him from the Senate, but then you know, Kay Ivey will be able to
appoint a Republican so we still get the seat. And at some point, it seems
like the Republican Party nominated this guy and the Republican Party is
going to have to stand or fall by – they might have to lose a seat. I
mean, I guess I feel like the punishment here is you lose the seat if you
nominate Roy Moore.

STEELE: And here`s the truth of it. You lose the seat in 2018. You get
it back in 2024.

HAYES: Or – exactly, when it goes back on cycle. That`s right. Yes.

STEELE: Yes, the Democrat (INAUDIBLE) the special election. That`s right.
The Democrat is not going to hold that seat but for a hot minute.

HAYES: Yes. That democratic by the way –

STEELE: So (INAUDIBLE) all of this grief for you.

HAYES: Democrat Doug Jones, a career Prosecutor, prosecuted the KKK that
murdered those four girls in the Birmingham Church. A very credible person
who now stands against someone who`s now been accused credibly twice of
molesting a child and attempted rape on a 16-year-old. Reza Aslan and
Michael Steele, great to have you both.

Tonight shocking new revelations about a secret correspondence between
Donald Trump Jr. and WikiLeaks during the Presidential Campaign. Julia
Ioffe broke the story and she joins me exclusively in just two minutes.


HAYES: Breaking news tonight. Another incredible report about Trump
campaign communications and once again Donald Trump Jr. is at the center of
it all. The Atlantic`s Julia Ioffe reports for the first time tonight that
Trump Jr. and the WikiLeaks Twitter account secretly traded direct messages
during the election. The messages including WikiLeaks sending Trump Jr.
the password for a new anti-Trump website, trying to get Donald Trump`s tax
returns. Not because the returns would be newsworthy, but because, listen
to this, this is WikiLeaks talking, “if we publish them, it will
dramatically improve the perception of our impartiality,” WikiLeaks
explained. “That means that the vast amount of stuff that we`re publishing
on Clinton will have much higher impact because it won`t be perceived as
coming from a pro-Trump, pro-Russia source.”

The messages continued even on election day when WikiLeaks (INAUDIBLE) “Hi,
Don, if your father loses, we think it is much more interesting if he does
not concede and spends time challenging the media and other types of
rigging that occurred, as he has implied he might do.” The Reporter who
broke that story, Julia Ioffe, joins me now. Well, this is a heck of a
scoop. Wow. Wow, wow, wow. What`s your sort of top line take away
between – about these exchanges?

JULIA IOFFE, STAFF WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: Well, so there is two things.
The first thing is how the exchanges make Donald Trump Jr. look. He has
since posted the screenshots that he has turned over, or that he had turned
over to congressional investigators. He has now posted them on his twitter
feed, which seems to be his kind of go-to method. And, you know, he trade
– he responded to some of these messages. And he says, look, you know,
here is my whopping three responses. But if you look at the
correspondence, and if you look at how they match up with both his Twitter
feed and his father`s Twitter feed who is now the President of the United
States of America, you can you see that at least initially both he and his
father were acting on requests from WikiLeaks.

HAYES: So, I want to show that because I think that`s important. So
here`s one response when they say when – on October 3rd, WikiLeaks tweet
again, “haya, it would be great if you guys could comment on, push the
story, WikiLeaks suggested attaching a quote from then-Democratic Nominee
Hillary Clinton about just wanting to just drone WikiLeaks founder Julian
Assange.” I should be clear that that quote is unsourced. It comes from a
slightly random outlet. It`s unclear whether she ever said that and then
Don Jr., already did that earlier today. It`s amazing what she can get
away with.

And then there`s this one which I want you to – that strongly suggest your
dad tweets this link if he mentioned us. WikiLeaks went on pointing Trump
Jr. to the link or (INAUDIBLE) said it would help trump
followers dig through the trove of stolen documents by messages. Trump Jr.
did not respond for the message 15 minutes after it was sent. The Wall
Street Journal`s Byron Tau pointed out Donald Trump himself tweeted very
little pickup by the dishonest media of incredible information provided by
WikiLeaks, so dishonest, rigged system. What do you make of that?

IOFFE: So he – so two different things. There`s first October 12th,
WikiLeaks sends Donald Trump this link – Donald Trump Jr. this link and
two delays later on October 24th, 2016, he tweets it out. But then they
mention – then they go on to mention, hey, by the way, we`ve released part
four of the Podesta e-mails which were gotten by Russian hackers illegally
and passed on to WikiLeaks. Then 15 minutes later, Donald Trump, the
Republican nominee at this point, tweets out, hey, by the way, here are the
Podesta e-mails. So that`s very troubling.

The other part of all of this is WikiLeaks` behavior. You know, WikiLeaks
has continued to insist that it`s just a radical transparency organization,
that it has no dog in this fight, that it`s just about transparency. And
if you look at these messages, they – I mean, not only are they looking
out for number one, they asked – my favorite part of the exchange is when
they asked Donald Trump after he is elected to put pressure on Australia to
name Julian Assange the Australian Ambassador to D.C.

HAYES: They actually say this in a DM. Like, hey, you know, great your
dad won. You know what would be cool? Put a little pressure. And they
even – like they proposed a script in a sort of like pseudo-Trumpian
voice, Julian Assange, tough guy, one of the famous Australians, like
that`s what you should use the float the idea of Julian Assange as
ambassador to the U.S. from Australia.

IOFFE: Right. But then, I mean, I think the most troubling thing of this
exchange by far is when on election night at 6:35 p.m. on election night,
when all the prognosis had Hillary Clinton winning by a landslide,
WikiLeaks is reaching out to the oldest son of the Republican nominee who`s
at that point seems to be losing, and says do not concede this election.
Challenge it. Which aligns with what we saw Russian intelligence – like
the game plan that Russian intelligence was putting out. We saw that in
the DNI report that came out in – last January. So they`re pushing this
extremely harmful, dangerous tactic. I mean, we should say Donald Trump
Jr. did not respond to that. But I mean, to tell the, you know, the
Republican nominee to not accept the election results is – I mean, that`s

HAYES: It is. I mean, I agree. That is the most jaw-dropping moment in
the exchange, and for the two reasons, you note. One is a huge part of the
sort of Russia propaganda efforts as we know of was talking about the
election is rigged, as illegitimate and Donald Trump played into that of
course when he famously said he wouldn`t – he wouldn`t necessarily pledge
to accept the results of the election, number one. Number two, WikiLeaks,
what the heck does a radical transparency organization care one way or the
other about that? Like it is extremely incriminating for WikiLeaks.

IOFFE: That`s right. That`s right. I mean, it looks – it looks
horrible. At this point I think that you know, the jig is up for
WikiLeaks. You know, I don`t know what leg they have to stand on after
these revelations.

HAYES: We should say the WikiLeaks calls itself you know, an independent
publishing house. It has been accused by the U.S. intelligence agencies
and the community as essentially being a front for Russian intelligence.
In the sort of polls between those two interpretations, this bit of data
doesn`t help the WikiLeaks case.

IOFFE: So I remember actually as I`m sitting here and talking to you, I
remembered sitting with you on the floor of the Democratic National
Convention in Philly right after WikiLeaks released the first batch of DNC
e-mails, which threw the DNC into turmoil. It cast – you know, for a
while it was unclear if Hillary Clinton would actually be you know,
nominated. And I remember sitting with you and telling you everybody who
has followed Russia knows that WikiLeaks and the Kremlin are like this.
And we had – and we had this long back and forth well, do we know?

HAYES: I sort of remember – I remember that. I remember that back and

IOFFE: Now we know. Now we know.

HAYES: Julia Ioffe, thanks for joining me. Ahead, much more on Donald
Trump Jr.`s secret correspondence with WikiLeaks during the campaign. What
this means legally for the President`s son. And after yet another instance
of conveniently forgotten offer for help during the campaign, what else is
out there? We`ll talk about that ahead.


HAYES: Don Jr. isn`t the only one whose campaign communications are
raising eyebrows tonight. Stephen Miller, a key Trump adviser has largely
managed to keep his name out of talk about Russian election interference
and possible collusion, until now. New York Times on Friday identified
Miller as the, quote, unquote, “senior policy adviser mentioned in the
George Padopoulos court documents.”

Remember, Padopoulos is the Trump campaign adviser who pleaded guilty to
lying to federal agents about his contacts with Russians during the

The New York Times now reports that, quote, “Mr. Papadopoulos was in
regular contact that
spring with top campaign officials including Stephen Miller, now a senior
adviser to President Trump.”

Court documents identified two emails between Papadopoulos and the senior
policy adviser we now know to be Miller. In late April, Papadopoulos
emailed Miller to say the Russian government has an open invitation by
Putin for Mr. Trump to meet with him when he is ready.

The next day Papadopoulos met with a London professor who said the Russians
had, quote, dirt on Hillary Clinton, including saying specifically the
Russians had emails of Clinton. They have thousands of emails.

Keep in mind, this is more than a month before the DNC and Podesta email
hacks are public.

A day after that meeting, Padopoulos again emailed Miller, writing “have
some interesting messages coming in from Moscow about a trip when the time
is right.”

What these newly uncovered communications by Stephen Miller and Don Jr.
tells about the core of the Trump Russia investigation. What did they
know? When did they know it? We`ll discuss that next.



TRUMP: As I was getting off the plane, they were just announcing new
WikiLeaks. And I wanted to stay there, but I didn`t want to keep you
waiting. I didn`t want to keep you waiting.

Let me run back into the plane and find out.

Boy, I love reading those WikiLeaks.

This WikiLeaks stuff is unbelievable. It tells you the inner heart. You
got to read it.

It just came out. WikiLeaks.

It`s been amazing what`s coming out on WikiLeaks.

Did you see another one? Another one came in today. This WikiLeaks is
like a treasure trove.

This just came out. This just came out. WikiLeaks. I love WikiLeaks.


HAYES: The admiration was apparently mutual. Just two days after Donald
Trump first started publicly declaring that he loved WikiLeaks, the group`s
Twitter account direct messaged John Jr. and said, quote, “hey, Donald.
Great to see you and your dad talking on our publications.”

Carrie Cordero is a former attorney in the national security division of
the Justice Department; Renato Marrioti, a former federal prosecutor who
has litigated multiple cases of public corruption.

Carrie, let me start with you, what are the legal ramifications of the
revelations today of these direct messages?

DIVISION: Well, I think the legal ramifications are the same that are true
of anybody who is in
the Trump administration or was part of the campaign, which is the risk
they face if they lie to investigators, because Donald Trump Jr. obviously
is having to provide documents, is going to be interviewed by all the
different investigations that are taking place. And so if he is not
truthful in
those interviews, we`ve seen already that the special counsel`s office is
willing to prosecute somebody for making false statements, as they have
with Papadopoulos.

So I think as far as legal jeopardy, that`s still probably a big one for
him in particular and for others in the inner circle, but I think
politically, and what these – what this story by Julia shows with respect
to the timeline of communications between the Trump campaign and Russian
surrogates, it`s just one more avenue to fill in that timeline.


CORDERO: And show that there wasn`t just a meeting in Trump Tower in June
2016, there wasn`t just communications between Carter Page, there wasn`t
just communications or emails that Padopoulos was having. There also were
direct messages between Trump Jr. and WikiLeaks, who director of the CIA
Pompeo said last spring he acknowledged their connection as a surrogate or
having a relationship with Russian intelligence.

HAYES: Renato, the other thing that strikes me here is this pattern where
someone approaches the campaign and says want to do something sketchy
possibly on behalf of a Russian agent or cutout, whether that`s a London
professor going after George Papadopoulos, whether it`s the intermediary
emailing Don Jr., whether it`s Assange`s Twitter account saying hey, want
to spread this around or hack
this website? Here is the password? And no one ever puts up a stop sign.

it`s certainly very telling. Obviously, those messages are pretty
shocking. All of us just heard a minute ago what The Atlantic reporter
described. You know, and some of them could potentially create additional
legal jeopardy. You know, I do think when you receive, for example, a
password to someone`s website, if you enter that website without their
authorization, that`s potentially a crime.

HAYES: It`s true.

MARIOTTI: There is other things as well there. You know, for instance –
you know, for
example, you know they obviously those hacked emails, I think the real
question is obviously hacking is a crime. The question is did they take
part in, was there some agreement with somebody in the
campaign about the distribution? Or did they just happen? Is it
essentially like somebody robs a bank and tells you the money from the bank
robbery is hiding behind the bushes for you to take.

So we`ll have to see, you know – sorry.

HAYES: I just want to say there is a direct message in there from Don Jr.
on October 3, four days before the Podesta email starts saying basically,
what is this I`m hearing about a leak coming Wednesday. So, there`s
something – whether that`s a reference to Roger Stone who tipped them off,
but there`s some kind of something in the air. We don`t know deeper than
that if he has some special information. But that`s a pretty good place
for investigators to look.

MARIOTTI: Well, right. And there seems to be, frankly, a lot of
familiarity there. Notice that they don`t start the conversation by saying
hi, you know, whatever, great to meet you. They get down to business. And
then at the very end, there is a suggestion about lawyer-to-lawyer
communication. I`ll tell you, as a lawyer myself, what that essentially
means is they did not – if you want to have lawyer-to-lawyer
communication, that means this ways the words are not coming out of your

HAYES: Right.

MARIOTTI: You can – they can`t be used against you, it`s essentially a
way of saying things that might be problematic.

HAYES: Yeah, that`s from the WikiLeaks side.

Carrie, also – I mean, presumably, just to strike out this possibility, I
mean, the actual direct messages would be able to be able to be acquired by
Mueller`s team, right, so they`re not just relying on
screen shots being provided by Don Jr.

CORDERO: Well, they have a variety of tools of investigative tools
available to them. Investigators can either serve warrants or court orders
on third parties that have information in order to provide the contents of
messages. In this case, according to the article, the Trump provided the
actual messages to congressional investigators.

HAYES: Right.

CORDERO: But that demonstrates, there – these messages are one channel
that he was communicating with them in. And so I think that`s important to
focus on, because this was one channel, one subset of messages.

HAYES: Yeah. The question is were there other channels that we haven`t
seen in the reply chain.

CORDERO: So, that`s the question. And that`s what investigators, the
special counsel`s team, will be able to get to.

HAYES: Carrie Cordero and Renato Mariotti, thanks for your time.

Still ahead, Senator Sherrod Brown on Roy Moore, the latest fight over the
Republican tax plan.

Plus, friends in high places. Tonight`s Thing One, Thing Two starts next.



HAYES: Thing One tonight, last week we told you about one of President
Trump`s judicial
nominees, this guy, 36-year-old Brett J. Talley has a unanimous rating from
the ABA, American Bar Association, of not qualified, has just three years
experience practicing law, has never tried a case in his
life, and yet Trump`s White House nominated Talley for a lifetime
appointment as a federal judge.

Among the rabidly partisan views he has expressed, Buzzfeed reports tonight
on undisclosed comments Talley appears to have made on a sports blog as a
commentor. Days after the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting writing
that the gun regulation will do nothing. My solution would be to stop
being a society of pansies and man up.

So how does a guy this astonishingly unqualified get a shot at serving a
lifetime appointment on the federal bench? I mean, I don`t know, does his
wife work at the White House or something? Actually, that`s Thing Two in
60 seconds.



BRETT J. TALLEY, FEDERAL JUDICIAL NOMINEE: I also don`t have an opening
statement, but I would like to take a moment just to introduce a few people
who are here today.
I`ll start with my wife, Annie Donaldson Talley. She is not only the love
of my life, she is the best lawyer in the family. If it wasn`t for the
sacrifices she made both professionally and personally, there is no way
that I could be here.


HAYES: Yeah, true. Brett J. Talley nominated for a lifetime point as
federal judge despite only having three years of experience practicing law
told the judiciary committee there is no way he could be there if it
weren`t for his wife. And that is almost certainly spot-on. Since The New
York Times reported today Brett Talley did not disclose he is married to a
White House lawyer, and not just any lawyer, he is married to Ann
Donaldson, the chief of staff to the White House counsel Don F. McGahn II.

Brett Talley was asked directly on his public senate questionnaire to
identify the family members or other persons that are likely to present
potential conflicts of interest. But Talley made no mention of his wife
working at the White House, nor that she is chief of staff to Don McGahn
who has led the White House effort to rapidly fill federal court vacancies
with young, staunchly conservative judges.

The White House says Ann Donaldson Talley was not involved in the selection
of her husband as nominee, but there is more. Ms. Donaldson has emerged in
recent weeks as a witness in the special
counsel`s investigation into whether Mr. Trump obstructed justice. She was
interviewed by investigators recently.

So, there is a 36-year-old judicial nominee who has never tried a case, who
did not disclose his wife is a senior White House lawyer, and whose said
wife is potentially implicated in Mueller`s
obstruction of justice investigation. And Senate Republicans may confirm
him to a lifetime position as a federal judge as early as this week.


HAYES: Today jurors in the federal corruption trial of Senator Bob
Menendez, Democrat of New Jersey, failed to reach a verdict on all 12
counts against him. The judge advised jurors to keep
deliberating. Menendez stands accused of various corruption charges,
including using his office to provide favors to wealthy eye doctor in
exchange for gifts, private plane travel and political contributions.

Now, if the jury officially deadlocks in a mistrial, Democrats will breath
a sigh of relief as they will hold on to that Senate seat. A guilty verdict
on the other hand would allow New Jersey Republican governor Chris Christie
before he leaves offices to possibly appoint his successor should Menendez
have to step down. And that would give Republicans another likely yes vote
on their tax bill.

While the Senate began its form markup of the bill today, the president
decided to lob a
grenade in the proceedings. We`ll talk about that with Senator Sherrod
Brown next.


HAYES: Just as the Senate finance committee was due to begin debating the
Republicans` $1.5
trillion tax cut, the president, who is in the Philippines right now,
tweeted, “I am proud of the Republican House and Senate for working so hard
on cutting taxes and reform. We`re getting close.
Now how about ending the unfair and highly unpopular individual mandate in
Obamacare and reducing taxes even further? Cut top rate to 35% with all the
rest going to middle income tax cuts.”

Senator Sherrod Brown, Democrat from Ohio, sits on the finance committee
that`s marking up the tax reform plan joins me now. Let`s start with the
president, two proposals at the last second here in this very sort of
delicate negotiation. Repeal the individual mandate, how do you think that
will sell
over on Capitol Hill?

SEN. SHERROD BROWN, (D) OHIO: Well, they can`t give up. I look around that
committee and I see all these senators, well-dressed, good pay, good
titles. All of us have insurance paid for by taxpayers, and they`re trying
now a new way to take insurance from 900,000 Ohioans.

I stand with Governor Kasich, a Republican. I`m a Democrat. I stand with
him to say, no,
stop it on trying to go after people`s insurance, because if they repeal
the individual mandate, they`ll take away the subsidies and people will
lose their insurance because they won`t be able to afford it.

HAYES: Yeah, it seems to me that they tried to appeal the ACA and they
failed. They`ve got a very complicated tax deal. Is there any appetite on
Capitol Hill among Republicans to shove this in as well? Or won`t that
destroy it?

BROWN: Well, the appetite is all a function of the calls that billionaires
are making, Adelson
and Mercer and the Koch brothers. So much of their agenda is all about
that. That`s why the tax cuts are
structured the way they are. That`s why their environmental policy is the
way it is. That`s why their health care policy is the way it is. That`s
why, it`s billionaires giving those three families what they want. You can
see it all over Capitol Hill.

We`ve never seen our government so – and special interests always have too
much influence here. I`m dealing with a bank issue where banks have way too
much influence around here. We know that. But never have we seen pretty
much three families of billionaires during what they`re doing.

HAYES: So, the other thing I thought was interesting about the president`s
tweet, and it dovetails with the distributional nature of the cuts, he is
basically saying they`re not cutting it for the rich and up. If you read
that tweet he`s saying cut the 39% rate down to 35, very explicitly
advocating for even further cuts to the wealthiest Americans and he says
maybe the rest can go to the middle class.

BROWN: Not to try to one up that, or you, Chris, but I was in the meeting
when the president from I don`t know how many thousand miles away, at 4:00
in the afternoon, we were at the Library of Congress with the president`s
top economic adviser. The president called in and said, my accountant says
this bill has got nothing in here for me and we have to put the estate tax
in there because there`s nothing else for rich people so we have to repeal
the estate tax.

I don`t know if the president doesn`t understands. I know McConnell
understands. I know Ryan understand that they want to load up as much in
this bill as they can for the billionaires and for their biggest
contributors and people funding their campaigns. That`s clearly what
they`re doing. Whether the president knows it or not, is a bit puzzling.

These guys talk about a middle class tax cut. If they want to give a middle
class tax cut, give a middle class tax cut. Don`t sort of give it to
corporations and then say it will trickle down in higher
wages. Let`s get rid of the middleman. Don`t give it to corporations and
have a trickle down. Give the tax cuts to the middle class directly.

HAYES: Yead. They are reporting it – it`s kind of remarkable that all the
reporting indicates their are some middle class taxpayers who will see a
tax hike. The New York Times found that a quarter of families in the middle
class will see their taxes increase in 2018 by about a thousand dollars on
average, the share going up to 2026, one-third average, it would rise to

What does that do for you as you talk to your constituents?

BROWN: Well, there`s so much wrong with this. So many families in
Mansfield and Lyme and Toledo, Ohio will see their taxes go up. They`ll
hear this Congress say, over and over, middle class,
middle class, middle class tax cut. But again, if they really want to do a
middle class tax cut, cut out the middleman. Do the tax cut for middle

My Working Family Tax Relief Act will put money in the pockets of people
making 25, 50, $75,000. That`s how you grow the economy, not giving tax
cuts and hope it trickles down.

HAYES: While I have you here, and this pertains to how whether this thing
will pass into this year, I want to ask you about two members of the United
States Senate. One you have served with and one who you might serve with in
the near future.

One is Roy Moore, who a lot of your colleagues have called on to drop out
even on the Republican side. Do you think he should drop out?

BROWN: Yeah, of course he should. Yeah. He had all kind of ethical issues
before, anyway.
John Kasich, the Republican governor of Ohio said – I hate to keep quoting
Kasich, but Kasich is right. Mitch McConnell said he should drop out.
Clearly he should drop out.

HAYES: The other is your colleague, Senator Menendez in New Jersey, who is
being tried on corruption charges, 12 counts, that jury is deadlocked.
There is a question about were he to be convicted, do you think he should

BROWN: I think that he will appeal if he`s convicted. I don`t really want
to do what-ifs about him, because I don`t know what this jury is going to
do. I`ll be very willing to answer it after he`s either exonerated or
convicted, and we can have that discussion.

HAYES: All right, Senator Sherrod Brown of Ohio, thanks for joining us.

BROWN: Always, thanks.

HAYES: That`s All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts right

Good evening, Rachel.



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