Mueller Investigation Flynn for Kidnapping plot Transcript 11/10/17 All In with Chris Hayes
Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES
Date: November 10, 2017
Guest: Barbara Boxer, Michelle Goldberg, Kevin Roose, Laura Bassett
CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: And that`s HARDBALL for now, thanks for being
with us. “ALL IN” with Chris Hayes starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Tonight on ALL IN.
SEAN HANNITY, HOST, FOX NEWS CHANNEL: Do you remember dating girls that
young at that time?
ROY MOORE, REPUBLICAN SENATORIAL CANDIDATE, ALABAMA: Not generally, no.
HAYES: Roy Moore speaks out.
MOORE: I don`t remember ever dating any girl without the permission of her
HAYES: Tonight Roy Moore`s selective defense and the Republican Party,
trapped between Roy Moore and corporate tax cuts. Then –
MICHAEL FLYNN, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, WHITE HOUSE: Lock her up.
Lock her up.
HAYES: Explosive new reporting that President Trump`s National Security
Adviser may have been secretly bribed on behalf of a foreign government.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: General Flynn is a wonderful
HAYES: And from Roy Moore to Louis C.K. as allegations against powerful
men multiply, why the “If it`s true” response season enough.
SEN. MIKE LEE (R), UTAH: If they`re true, he should step aside.
HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Good evening from New York, I`m Chris Hayes. Fresh off its worst
election night in at least five years, the Republican Party today finds
itself trapped in a Roy Moore dilemma. The GOP candidate for U.S. Senate
in an Alabama Special Election next month, Moore stands accused of
molesting a 14-year-old girl when he was a 32-year-old assistant district
attorney. Three other women say that Moore pursued them when they were
teenagers. Moore denies the “on the record” allegations, which were first
reported yesterday by the Washington Post. While Republicans on Capitol
Hill seem to be hoping they`d just go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leader McConnell, do you believe the woman who made
these accusations against Roy Moore? Leader McConnell, do you believe
these women who made-on-the record accusations against Roy Moore, Sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leader McConnel, what more information do you need to
hear to decide if these allegations against Roy Moore are true?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: That was at a meeting on the Republican tax plan for which Roy
Moore could provide the crucial vote. Like many other Senate Republicans,
Mitch McConnell has called on Moore to withdraw from the race if the
allegations are true. No word yet on what they`re willing to accept as
proof or whether Post reporting with four women on the record about their
encounters with Moore including the mother of the 14-year-old girl, plus
over 30 other sources, whether that meets the threshold. That caveat, if
true, would seem to leave a whole lot of room for Moore`s claims that the
allegations are false. In a radio interview today with Sean Hannity, Moore
denied even knowing the 14-year-old Leigh Corfman, but he did not rule out
the possibility of having had relationships with other teenagers while in
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MOORE: I don`t know Ms. Corfman from anybody. I`ve never talked to her,
never had any contact with her. Allegations of sexual misconduct with her
are completely false. I believe they`re politically motivated. I`ve never
known this woman or anything. With regard to the girls, you understand
this 40 years ago, and after my return from the military, I dated a lot of
HANNITY: Would it be unusual for you as a 32-year-old guy to have dated a
woman as 17? That would be a, what, 15-year difference. Or a girl 18. Do
you remember dating girls that young at that time?
MOORE: Not generally, no. If I did, you know, I`m not going to dispute
anything, but I don`t remember anything like that.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
HAYES: Not generally, no. If I did, I`m not going to dispute it. Now,
not everyone is willing to take Moore at his word. Former Presidential
Candidate Mitt Romney tweeted, “Innocent until proven guilty is for
criminal convictions, not elections. I believe Leigh Corfman. Her account
is too serious to ignore. Moore is unfit for office and should step
aside.” Senator John McCain called on Moore to withdraw yesterday after
the story first broke. And in a statement, today, Virginia Congresswoman
Barbara Comstock, one of the most vulnerable House Republican said Moore
should not serve in the U.S. Senate. But Moore has made it clear he has no
intention of dropping out of this race. His name will almost certainly be
on that ballot, which means the only person standing between Roy Moore and
the U.S. Capitol is his Democratic opponent Doug Jones, a former prosecutor
who put away members of the KKK.
We`ll see if Jones picks up any big Republican endorsement. Meanwhile,
Moore supporters have been circling the wagon portraying the former judge
as the victim of a politically motivated smear campaign. His brother Jerry
telling NBC News, “it`s kind of like when Jesus Christ was hung on the
cross. I`m not saying Roy`s like Christ, I`m saying the allegations, the
way they`re treating him is like the way they treated Christ.” He went on
to say there “ought to be something filed” against Moore`s accusers,
echoing an Alabama state Rep named Ed Henry who told the local paper, if
they believe this man is predatory, they are guilty of allowing him to
exist for 40 years. I think someone should prosecute and go after them.
Already, Rush Limbaugh is calling one of the accusers a “wacky woman” on
his national radio show, while well-known alt-right figure posted her photo
and workplace on Twitter before taking them down. The White House for its
part repeated the “if true” caveat, adding a bit of extra wiggle room.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, PRESS SECRETARY, WHITE HOUSE: Like most Americans,
the President believes that we cannot allow a mere allegation, in this
case, one from many years ago, to destroy a person`s life. However, the
President also believes that if these allegations are true, Judge Moore
will do the right thing and step aside.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
HAYES: Do you the hear that part? Mere allegation, a mere allegation,
this source – this story with 30 sources and four on the record. It was
that same Press Secretary just a few weeks ago stated from the White House
podium that all the women who have accused the President himself of sexual
misconduct, there are over a dozen of them, that all of them are liars.
Sarah Huckabee Sanders said that from the podium. It was just over a year
ago the President was elected to office even after those allegations were
made public, many of them on the record and after voters heard audio if him
of course famously bragging about committing such acts. Last night an
event in New Hampshire, one-time Campaign Chief Steve Bannon recounted just
how they made it through the Access Hollywood tape laying out a potential
template for his friend, the man he`s endorsing, Roy Moore.
STEVE BANNON, FORMER CHIEF STRATEGIST, WHITE HOUSE: The Bezos, Amazon,
Washington Post that dropped that dime on Donald Trump is the same Bezos,
Amazon, Washington Post that dropped the dime this afternoon on Judge Roy
Moore. Now is that a coincidence? On Billy Bush, Saturday, we got a, you
know, kind of the high command and award council, nobody went around the
room and they were telling some guys go on “60 minutes” and crying on
Ivanka`s shoulder and other people you know, do this and do that, and
apologize, and apologize, and apologize. I say we double down now, right?
You`re Donald Trump and they`re not, right? I said, (INAUDIBLE) I said,
let`s go have a rally.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Steve Schmidt is a Republican Strategist and MSNBC Political
Analyst. That appears to be the strategy of Bannon and his wing and the
Alabama Republican Party. As someone who has worked your whole adult life
in Republican politics, what is your reaction to that?
STEVE SCHMIDT, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: I don`t have the words to express
my shame. It`s disgraceful. What we`re talking about here, Chris, is a
14-year-old little girl. Roy Moore is a pedophile. He`s a child molester.
That`s what`s alleged here. This story is immaculately sourced. There are
30 corroborating sources that are contemporaneous to the accounts of the
woman from the time and the years after. It`s obviously true. The notion
that this is some sort of conspiracy that`s been built, designed by Satan
in the words of Roy Moore over many years is pure nonsense talk. This
whole notion of if the allegations are proven true, there will be no trial
here. There`ll be no judge to render a verdict. This is not a court of
law. These are credible allegations.
The Republican National Committee should severe all fundraising
relationships with this campaign. Every Republican member of the United
States Senate should signal that should he be elected that he`ll refuse to,
that they`ll refuse to caucus with Roy Moore. Every one of them should
call on him to drop out of this race. They should repudiate it. The moral
wrought in the Republican Party, the wrought, the stench, the cancer of
Bannonism is a plague on this country. It is a sad, sad day. Ronald
Reagan, Abraham Lincoln, Dwight Eisenhower, Teddy Roosevelt, they`re
rolling over in their graves tonight. Shame on Mitch McConnell, shame on
Paul Ryan for not speaking out, not doing the right thing here, shame on
HAYES: You know, there`s these two camps, there`s the Bannonite camp and
the Alabama Republicans who are kind of rallying around Moore, the people
around him, and folks on Trump T.V. who have been saying you know, it`s
fabricated. The women make things up. And then there`s people like Mitt
Romney and Barbara Comstock and John McCain to their credit saying this in
and of itself is disqualifying. Then today you had this – there`s this
other category, which is the biggest category, the kind of I`m not sure.
Today you had Mike Lee first asking for his name to be pulled off the
fundraising document, the picture of him with Roy Moore. First, he wanted
his picture removed, then later after the interview, he rescinded his
endorsement as did Steve Daines of Montana rescinded their endorsement. Is
SCHMIDT: No, it`s not enough. There needs to be a repudiation, not just a
recession of an endorsement. He should be called on to get out of the race
when he is accused of doing this molesting a little girl. We`re talking
about a 14-year-old little girl. This is disgraceful. It couldn`t be more
disgusting. This is predatory criminal behavior. It`s child molestation.
The conspiracy theories that have run rampant on extremist radio, on
extremist political T.V. today certainly it shouldn`t be defined as
conservative. It has no – it has no connection to the conservatism that I
grew up with.
It has no connection to any rectitude or probity that you would expect of
some of our nation`s highest-ranking leaders. It is a sad and appalling
moment. And if I could say, the courage of this woman to come forward,
knowing what was going to come at her, we should all reflect on that. And
I do think that what you`ll see in Alabama, there`s a lot of pessimism
about Doug Jones` chances here. There`s a way to go in this race. And I
think that certainly, the Democratic Party should be all in on this race,
all in for Doug Jones on this race. And you`d like to see Mitt Romney,
John McCain, some of the others who have been so principled on this, they
ought to endorse Doug Jones in this race.
HAYES: That to me strikes me. That is going to be the choice. I mean,
it`s almost no way to get him off the ballot even logistically. It`s going
to be Roy Moore on that ballot and Doug Jones and maybe a write-in
candidate. And if you really think Roy Moore is unfit, then I agree with
you that Doug Jones is the option. Steve Schmidt, really, really great to
have you tonight. Thank you.
SCHMIDT: It`s been my pleasure.
HAYES: Barbara Boxer is a former U.S. Senator from the State of
California. And Senator, you know, you served that picture of those men
there, Chuck Grassley and Mitch McConnell and a few others. You served
with these men for decades in the United States Senate in some cases. Are
you surprised by the way they are reacting to this in not being more full-
BARBARA BOXER, FORMER UNITED STATES SENATOR: Truly, I am. And I am so
thankful to people like Steve Schmidt that give me hope for this country
and John McCain and yes, Mitt Romney and the others who read the story.
And you know, I held back until I read every word of that story. And if I
– if I could just ask the people of Alabama, just read the story and
follow your heart and your mind and don`t be blinded by anything else but
that story because we know it`s real. You just have to read it. You can
feel it as a human being, as a mom or a dad or as a victim.
But let me say I am surprised, particularly Mitch who I worked very well
with towards the end of my tenure. I`m surprised because he went through
the Packwood case. And this was another situation where Bob Packwood was
re-elected to the United States Senate. He had run on a very strong
feminist agenda from Oregon and right after he won, the Washington Post
wrote up with of these incredible in-depth investigative stories like this
one and named sources of about 15, 16 women who said he had abused them, no
children. By the way, that`s a whole other thing we can talk about, and
Mitch, for several years there I had to fight so hard with Bob deal with
And finally, Bob Packwood`s diaries came out. The truth will always come
out. And in this case, there were 30 people, as you mentioned who really
made this story real. So I`m shocked. At the end of the day, Packwood
left in disgrace. Ron Wyden took his place and he`s been there ever since.
Mitch ought to know, this isn`t the going away and he – let me tell you
what I think they ought to do. They have to send the Ethics Committee team
out there. I served on the Ethics Committee for many years. I chaired it
for a while. Then I was the highest Democrat on there. Send a team out to
meet with these accusers. You don`t have to talk to Roy Moore. Just talk
to the accusers. Talk to the community and get involved. Don`t just say,
if it`s true, find out for yourself if it`s true.
HAYES: Do you think there`s any recourse? I mean, McConnell in the
Packwood case ultimately sort of came out against Packwood, right? I mean,
he did –
BOXER: Well, it took a very long time.
HAYES: It took him a while, right?
BOXER: Well, let me tell you. It took so long and truly I was taken to
task so many times on the floor because I wanted to open up the discussion
of Packwood and they tried to keep it quiet. It was a very ugly thing. I
mean, I wrote a book on it. I had very a different take on it than Mitch.
But the point is, for 2 1/2 years after that, he was there and it did not
do the Republican Party or the United States Senate any good to have a
predator among our group. Now, look, in the whole country, since we
started, it`s been less than 2,000 Senators.
Please, there`s got to be somebody better than this man, who not only in my
mind after reading the story do I think he`s a pedophile, but he`s also
just the biggest hypocrite on the face of the earth. The biggest hypocrite
who ran around saying how moral he was how immoral everybody else is. I
say to the people of Alabama, they have this opportunity regardless of what
we say, it doesn`t matter, it`s what you want to do. What is the image you
want to send? And there are so many other people, if you don`t like the
Democrat, write in somebody. If you don`t like that person, you know,
write in your own name. You don`t have to vote for this man just because
he has an R behind his name.
HAYES: You don`t have to vote for this man –
BOXER: R for repulsive if could say. R for repulsive, that`s what I would
HAYES: Former Senator Barbara Boxer, I really appreciate you being here
HAYES: Tonight from Harvey Weinstein, to Roy Moore, to Louis C.K., on and
on, we`ll talk about this unprecedented cultural moment – social moment
that we`re going through and reports that Special Counsel Robert Mueller is
looking into allegations about a deal involving Michael Flynn $50million
and a Turkish prison island. The details in two minutes.
HAYES: NBC News reporting tonight that Special Council Robert Mueller`s
office is currently investigating whether Michael Flynn who spent 24 days
as National Security Adviser under President Trump discussed cutting a deal
with senior Turkish officials shortly before the inauguration to forcibly
remove a legal resident in the United States and deliver him into Turkey`s
custody in exchange of a secret payment of upwards of $15 million.
Potential target was this man, Fethullah Gulen a cleric living in
Pennsylvania who Turkish strong man Recep Tayyip Erdogan blames for the
last year`s failed coup attempt. The Wall Street Journal reports that the
discussions allegedly involved the possibility of transporting Gulen on a
private jet to the Turkish prison island of Imrali according to one of the
people who has spoken with the FBI.
And in a statement today, Flynn`s lawyers call the allegations broadly
false but did not address them specifically. Reportedly under
investigation are both Flynn and his son, Michael Flynn Jr. who both worked
together at the Flynn Intel Group. In March the elder Flynn belatedly
registered as a foreign agent after it was revealed that the Flynn Intel
Group was paid $530,000 to secretly lobby on Turkey`s behalf while Flynn
was working on Trump`s campaign in 2016. Also, Flynn penned an op-ed that
ran on election day hailing our ally Turkey and seeking the expulsion of
Gulen. Flynn cast as the radical Islamist who may run a dangerous sleeper
terror network. I`m joined now by one of NBC News Reporter who issuing the
byline of this story, National Political Reporter Carol Lee. Well, that`s
a heck of a story. What do we know about what investigators know?
CAROL LEE, NBC NEWS NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, we know that
they`re looking into whether there were these two asks from Turkey to
Michael Flynn. There was the Gulen one that you just walked through very
well and then there was another one that would essentially the request was
to drop charges against an ally of President Erdogan of Turkey, who`s
jailed in the U.S. for helping Iran avoid U.S. sanctions, among other
things. So these – the Special Counsel is looking into whether these two
things – these two things – at least those two things were proposed to
Flynn and Flynn accepted that if he was able to accomplish these tasks once
he was in the White House, that there would be a payment indirectly or
directly of upwards of $15 million.
We also know that they`re looking at whether this discussion about this
occurred at a meeting in December of 2016 at the 21 Club Restaurant in New
York and that whether Flynn and Senior Turkish officials had this
discussion there at that particular meeting. And we also have learned that
they`re looking at what, if any, role Michael Flynn`s son may have played
in such a deal.
HAYES: So I just want to be clear because what we do know, what was
revealed is that he is working during the campaign while his an adviser,
he`s working as essentially unregistered foreign agent for Turkish interest
to the tune of a half a million dollars. This focuses on the period after
the election victory Donald Trump had transitioned into the actual time
he`s serving in the U.S. government in one of the most high ranking
security posts. Correct?
LEE: Correct. And if you – the contract that the Flynn Intel Group,
which an ex-lobbying firm, had with Turkey ended the day after the
election, so then you know, soon after he was named National Security
Adviser, he obviously took a number of meetings, phone calls and
discussions with foreign leaders and other you know dignitaries and things
like that. But this is – this is what the Special Counsel is looking into
is whether this was different, whether these conversations had a different
tone and potentially you know, involve something that`s highly illegal.
HAYES: The tale to me always – and the thing that`s always – an election
op-ed about Fethullah Gulen and a relationship with Turkey as opposed to go
vote for Donald Trump when you`re the senior adviser in that campaign,
looks a lot like someone who thought that you know, he was running out of
the opportunity to monetize that relationship to a candidate as opposed to
a guy who feel super strongly about Turkey on election day?
LEE: Yes, and you know, these – this issue, the Gullen issue is one that
you know, President Erdogan of Turkey is obsessed with.
HAYES: Obsessed with.
LEE: He just brings this up in meetings with U.S. officials all time and
has pressed them to extradite this cleric and he clearly, you know, saw if
these allegations turn out to be true, you can envision Turkey seeing
someone like Flynn, that they had a relationship with as somebody they may
propose something like this to.
HAYES: All right, Carol Lee, thanks for being with me.
LEE: Thank you.
HAYES: And with me now is MSNBC Legal Analyst, former Assistant U.S.
Attorney Nick Akerman who`s part of the team that prosecuted Watergate. I
mean talk about whoa, if true.
NICK AKERMAN, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: This is unbelievable. I mean, this
borders on quid pro quo bribery. It borders on a huge conflict of
interest. I mean, it`s a part of the same pattern that you`ve seen in this
administration where people are in this for themselves and not in it for
the good of the American people. They`re trying to line their own pockets.
So this is all a part of the same pattern that we`ve seen right across the
HAYES: You know, it`s a good point because the Manafort – the most– one
of the most-incriminating e-mails Manafort sent was turning around to his
assistant in Ukraine after he gets to be appointed to be you know, on the
campaign and says, how do we use to make whole? Like how do we monetize
this position? We know that Flynn was monetizing his position essentially
during the campaign. The question is, was he trying to do it as the
National Security Adviser of the United States of America?
AKERMAN: Well, it certainly appears that way. I mean, first of all, he
was lying to the FBI at the time. He was questioned about his meeting with
Ambassador Kislyak the Russian Ambassador. He did not tell them about the
sanctions which was continuing theme also that started right with the Trump
Tower meeting June 9th with Don Junior and continued right through to the
time that Trump became president, which is why Congress vote a law that
basically handcuffed the president. So this was an issue that rings true
in a lot of respects. The real question is, if he took $15 million and was
willing to take $15 million to pull what was basically kind of a James Bond
escapade to take out this cleric from Pennsylvania.
HAYES: I mean, was it an extradition or a kidnapping, or a forcible
removal? I mean, however you want to characterize it. It`s a remarkable
thing to consider.
AKERMAN: It`s not a normal extradition because in the United States of
HAYES: There is judicial process.
AKERMAN: You go into court and you have papers. And –
HAYES: Which is why – we should just be clear, the reason this man
resides in the Poconos, Pennsylvania, and it is a weird story that a man
who`s this sort of an exiled cleric who runs a spiritual social movement in
Turkey that the government blames for (INAUDIBLE) happens in the Poconos
but the reason he`s still there is, he is not extraditable by the normal
AKERMAN: That`s right. And that`s the way it works in this country.
Another theme running through this administration is that they had no
regard for the rule of law. And this is just another example of that. And
if they`re doing it for $15 million, that`s even worse.
HAYES: He already prior to this seem to have exposure on the foreign agent
registration. And the reason that I thought of that was, one of the counts
of the indictment against Manafort is about filling a register, right?
AKERMAN: And there`s good reasons why you want people to register. It`s
because you`re disclosing to the world and to the U.S. government that yes,
I`m acting on behalf of this government. Here, it was all hidden. It was
hidden when he met with people to talk about getting Gullen out of the
country and it was hidden when he purposely decided not to let this
operation in Raqqa go forward. And it basically set the U.S. military back
HAYES: You are referring to a reporting earlier in the year that he was a
key decision-maker about the timing of essentially the final assault on
Raqqa and delayed it.
AKERMAN: Because he did not want the Turkish government, didn`t want the
Kurds involved in this, you know, whole expedition.
HAYES: Right. What they did – the Turkish government really doesn`t like
the armed Kurdish forces that have been effective fighting ISIS. They are
afraid that this have happened too soon. They essentially would take Raqqa
and take the lands and that would give them a stranglehold that the Turks
are incredibly skeptical of because of their history.
AKERMAN: Right. Even though the Turkish government doesn`t have the
wherewithal all to do it themselves.
HAYES: Right. So I mean, you got – there are so many questions about who
exactly Michael Flynn was working for and at that moment. If any part of
this story ends up being true, we`re obviously going to learn about it. It
is absolutely explosive.
AKERMAN: But the biggest question is why was it that Donald Trump said to
James Comey, you got to drop this investigation? That`s the big question.
HAYES: About Michael Flynn, that`s a great point. Nick Akerman, thanks
for your time tonight.
AKERMAN: Thank you.
HAYES: Ahead the Mueller probe digs deeper in the President`s inner
sanctum as Stephen Miller reportedly faces questions about the firing of
James Comey. That`s next.
HAYES: Special Counsel Robert Mueller`s investigation is methodically
working its way through the innermost sanctum of the White House. After
having interviewed Communications Director Hope Hicks, the Mueller team has
now interviewed White House Senior Policy Adviser Stephen Miller according
to CNN report, citing unnamed sources familiar with the investigation.
Miller`s chief relevance to the Russia investigation may be his role in the
President`s firing of James Comey. according to the New York Times, Miller
wrote a memo largely dictated by the President himself, citing President
Trump`s reasons for firing then FBI Director James Comey. One of the
President`s lawyers reportedly stopped the release of that letter because
he found it angry and problematic.
Mueller though has a copy of it. And the copy of it was reportedly in the
hands of Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein when he drafted his own
now-infamous letter which formed the basis of Comey`s termination. So the
Miller memo and testimony can be crucial in building the case for
obstruction of justice. Meanwhile, former Trump Foreign Policy Adviser
George Papadopoulos is reportedly upset that the President is now trying to
distance himself from Papadopoulos even though Papadopoulos lied to the FBI
out of loyalty to Trump according to the reporting of NBC News, which sends
a message of course to anyone making a calculation for themselves right now
about whether President Trump will have their back. And he won`t.
The right wing shock jocks who infiltrate YouTube and social media next.
HAYES: Within hours of the mass shooting in Sutherland Springs, Texas on
Sunday if you were to search YouTube for information about that massacre,
you might have come across a video by
a right wing shock jock naned Elmer T. Williams. And there you would find
a rambling video monologue that was full of false claims, but posted soon
enough to take advantage of breaking news interest and even become
temporarily prioritized by YouTube`s own algorithm.
On Sunday night right after the Texas shooting, Williams told his
subscribers and anyone who happened to stumble on his video after
searching, the gunman was probably, quote, either a Muslim or black. After
the suspected was identified as a white male, Williams posted another video
falsely speculating he gunman could be a Bernie Sanders supporter and
probably a member of the left wing group ANTIFA.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELMER T. WILLIAMS, YOUTUBER: This is the millennium, meaning that he`s
probably a Bernie Sanders supporter. Almost all of the ANTIFA people,
they`re are in love with Bernie Sanders
because he`s a socialist, freaking idiots.
I mean, we keep seeing all of these church shootings. And there don`t seem
to be any outrage.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: New York Times business columnist Kevin Roose happened to come
across these videos. And when asked YouTube questions about Mr. Williams
account, all of Williams` YouTube videos were turned down, his account
terminated for violation of YouTube policy on hate speech. But Williams
had 90,000 subscribers,sometimes posting 20 times per day, and his posts,
according – until YouTube acted to take him down, were monologues peppered
with gross falsehoods.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: This is breaking news that nobody has this story but your
doctor. They said this particular ban that Donald Trump has implemented on
the Muslim affects your former President Barack Hussein Obama.
It appears that some left wing kook, it was actually Rand Paul`s neighbor,
he decided to put
one of those football tackles on Rand Paul.
I Bet you his neighbor is a Bernie Sanders or Hillary supporter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: The New York Times business and tech columnist Kevin Roose, who
wrote the piece on YouTube`s rapid response partisans joins me now.
It was really a fascinating piece. I mean, so there is a bunch of things
happening here. Let`s talk first about – I mean, someone uploading to
YouTube is fine, neither here nor there, the most troubling part is this
sort of algorithm elevating it so that like you go to YouTube to be like
whgat happened in Sutherland Springs and you`re getting this?
KEVIN ROOSE, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yeah, when I did the search for the
Sutherland Springs shooting, I think something like five or six of the
first 10 videos that showed up were these kind of conspiratorial shock
jocks who upload these videos. And they do it very quickly, because
YouTube does have an algorithm that weights videos according to credibility
and page size and things like that, but before any of the major networks
could get their videos up, there were already dozens of these kind of
videos out there. And so they`re playing like a speed game, essentially,
and they`re winning. They`ve learned to sort of game the algorithm.
HAYES: There`s also – this happens on Google News and other platforms as
well, where right after an event like this, The stuff that`s rising to
the top is the most conspiratorial.
ROOSE: Yeah, and it`s engaging. I mean, you can see why people watch it.
It`s a lot more interesting to think that you`ve stumbled into a guy
explaining a conspiracy story than to just have a straight news story. And
so there has been a weaponization of the algorithm and platform to purvey
these sort of crazy conspiracy stories.
HAYES: How big are the audiences for this world? I mean, obviously Info
Wars, which is the sort of ultimate or conspiracy channel on YouTube is a
massive reach. But there is a huge ecosystem beneath that.
ROOSE: Yeah. So, Elmer Williams, I called him. He lives in Houston. He
has made something like 10,000 videos, 20 a day sometimes, he has been
doing this eight years. He says he`s gotten 200 million view, 90,000
subscribers. And he`s sort of a marginal figure, like he is not the top
tier of the Alex Joneses of this ecosystem and still he`s big enough that
YouTube actually invited him into their partner program which allows him to
make money by showing ads on his videos.
HAYES: And he says something – what`s the quote here. He says if YouTube
didn`t punish me, I could easily be making over $30,000 a month.
ROOSE: Yeah. And I don`t whether know if that`s true. Look, I don`t know
if he`s exaggerated. The fact that he is being paid to produce these or
was until YouTube shut down his account.
And I think that`s the difference between what we`re seeing on other
platforms like Facebook and Twitter. In those cases, some of the
misinformation specialists are having to pay to place adds, get their
message out there.
In the case of YouTube, they`re actually getting paid to do this.
HAYES: But the similarity across all of it that strikes me is that it`s
like this question of are you a printing press or are you a newspaper?
Like, if are you a printing press and someone says, like, make a thousand
of these flyers, you make them, and you don`t look at the content at all.
If are you a newspaper and someone says print this you say, well, is this
And all the of the platforms, it strikes me – YouTube, Facebook, Twitter
are all caught in an uncomfortable place between the two.
ROOSE: Absolutely, because they are like printing presses in a way, and
they`re democratized platforms where anyone can upload anything. And
that`s – I think that`s good, but they`ve also taken on the responsibility
of showing curated agorithmically sorted front pages to people. And that`s
what brings in the editorial judgment that they have, thus far, not been
willing to take on.
HAYES: And these sorts of stamps of approval, right. So, it`s like if you
are partnered with them, that shows up in some way, and that`s some kind of
judgment they`re making. It`s unclear what the content of that judgment
ROOSE: Yeah. I think they do it in various ways. I mean, YouTube`s
partner program is available to all pages above a certain size. I think in
this case they made a mistake by letting him into his program, because he
shouldn`t have had an account at all, according to their terms of service,
because he had been previously banned from another account.
So, he`s sort of a repeat offender. But there are lots of guys out there
who actually aren`t technically breaking any of the rules.
HAYES: All right, Kevin Roose, it`s a great piece. Thanks for coming by.
ROOSE: Thanks for having me.
HAYES: Coming up, Louis C.K. responds to sexual harassment accusations say
the sexual harassment stories are true. We`ll talk about the latest in
this watershed moment for allegations and what to make of this social
moment ahead. Plus, tonight`s Thing One, Thing Two starts next.
HAYES: Thing One tonight, we told you last night about some of the
extraordinarily unqualified people that President Trump has nominated for
his administration and for federal judges,
including four judicial nominees who have dubbed unqualified by the
American Bar Association, which
is extremely rare, two of those nominees were unanimously voted not
qualified, and that is something that hasn`t happened since back in 2006,
and that nominee was withdrawn.
Now, Brett Talley, that second person there, he has practiced law for, you
want to take a guess: three years. He`s practiced laws for three years.
Brett Talley has also never tried a case. But at 36-years-old, he is now
up for a lifetime appointment to the federal bench.
His rabidly partisan beliefs have been on full display less than two weeks
after the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School. He urged readers on
his blog to join the NRA. Last year he tweeted about, quote, Hillary
“Rotten” Clinton and suggested she should be jailed.
So that is who is nominated.
The Senate judiciary committee just held a vote on this man, Brett Talley.
Never tried a case. Three years out of law school. Every single Democrat
voted not to confirm him and his three years of experience practicing law
to a lifetime position on the federal bench. But can you guess how each of
these Republicans voted? That`s Thing Two in 60 seconds.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN, (D) CALIFORNIA: Mr. Talley graduated from law
school 10 years ago. What`s more, in a senate questionnaire, he stated, I
have not tried a case. He has been nominated for a lifetime appointment as
a federal district court judge, but has no trial experience.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: That was the ranking member of the Senate judiciary committee,
Feinstein at the confirmation hearing for one of President Trump`s judicial
nominees, 36-year-old conservative blogger Brett Talley. Yesterday, Talley
was approved by the Senate judiciary committee on a party line vote. Every
Democrat opposed him while not a single Republican objected.
So now Senator Mitch McConnell will hold a full Senate vote on Brett
Talley. And every Senator must decide whether a blogger who the Bar
Association unanimously calls not qualified, who tweeted about Hillary
“Rotten” Clinton and has all of three years experience practicing law
should receive a lifetime appointment as a federal judge.
HAYES: Today, comedian Louis C.K. admitted to sexual he watched several
women. The New York Times reported yesterday he had previously asked
several women to watch him masterbate and had done it with several of them.
In a statement today, the comedian said, quote, these stories are true.
Louis C.K. is only the latest in a very it`s the latest in a very, very,
very long string of men recently accused of sexual harassment, sexual
misconduct or sexual assault. The flood began last month after dozens of
women stepped forward to accuse Harvey Weinstein of rape and abuse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LESTER HOLT, NBC NEWS: Tonight a bombshell new allegation against Kevin
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Legendary film producer Harvey Weinstein is fired.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The company has suspended its entertainment chief Roy
Price amid sexual harassment allegations.
HOLT: Also tonight breaking tonight, star comedian Louis C.K. accused by
five women of sexual misconduct.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: CNN is reporting allegations regarding our friend
MATT LAUER, NBC NEWS: That has led to accusations against former president
George H.W. Bush.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Portia De Rossi claims Steven Segal exposed himself to
HOLT: New allegations of sexual misconduct and assault against a growing
list of powerful men. This time, they include legendary actor Dustin
Hoffman, well known director Brett Ratner, Emmy award-winning actor Jeremy
Piven, and also the chief of NPR News.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: It`s a singular moment we`re in the midst of right now as more and
more women, and many men, too, speak about their experience with sexual
harassment or assault and about how hard it is
for them to be believed.
And that is perhaps the core question now in the Alabama Senate race where
Republican Roy Moore is facing allegations reported in The Washington Post
of sexual contact with a 14-year-old girl. What does it take for people
to believe these accusers, even as some lawmakers and media outlets call
them liars and opportunists. That`s next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS: Do people do it for money? Do they do it for
political reasons? How come? Is that more common than people would think?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, definitely. I mean, they`ll do this for…
HANNITY: They will lie to make money.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, undoubtedly. And these individuals, a lot of
these women, it`s all about money and they bank on the fact that these
HANNITY: And this is where you thread the needle, because there are women
that are victims of predators.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are, but very few and far between.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: So hard. So hard.
Laura Bassett, senior political reporter for The Washington Post where she
covers women`s rights, and Michelle Goldberg, columnist at The New York
Times. She`s written about the Weinstein scandal and the widening
allegations of sexual harassment. Good to have you both.
Where to start right now? I mean, it feels, you know, I want to – when I
wrote my first book, I
did reporting on the Catholic church scandal. And this feels like that,
but for all of society where it was like – there were decades of secrets
and trauma that people have kept in and it just started to come out.
MICHELLE GOLDBERG, NEW YORK TIMES: And I don`t find it. I mean, to me
it`s not liberating, it`s this kind of grim slog where on the one hand,
it`s like our consolation prize for having
this monstrous misogynist as president that we`re going to expose all these
other people are going to be exposed. But what it just – to me it makes
me despair about the prospects for gender equality.
HAYES: Huh, why?
GOLDBERG: If this behavior is so pervasive, if you basically have to tear
down almost every cultural institution in America.
HAYES: Everything, from academia to…
GOLDBERG: Right, in order to have some hope of parity. And also just the
growing realization of how many men that I`ve interacted with that I
actually had no idea had such contempt for women.
HAYES: You have written about this. You wrote this piece that women
recall the first time a man masterbated in front of them without consent,
which was – I have to say, like part of the process of this as a man is
like is having the scales fall from your eyes about what women are exposed
to? What has it been like to cover this?
LAURA BASSETT, THE WASHINGTON POST: Yeah, well, I think that – and people
do understand that it`s worth pointing out that the stories that make the
news are the Harvey Weinsteins and the Louis C.K.`s, it`s because they`re a
celebrity that it makes news. But for most women, it`s not actually news
that men do this.
For me, for a lot of women, for most women that I`ve talked to, we have
been sexually harassed in every job we have ever been in, including – I
mean, the media, the fourth estate is supposed to be the police of
institutionalized sexual misconduct, and yet it`s all over the media. We
have all been harassed by men we work with.
And then, you know, of course, the stories of random men masterbating in
front of us throughout our lives. I mean, the first time it happened to me
I was five-years-old. And the reason my story is about the first time it
happened to you is because it`s happened multiple times to many of us. And
so I think what we are reading about in the news is just the very tip of
HAYES: I understand the feeling of like a grim slog, because it does feel
– there is sort of a lot
of trauma around this, and I`m on the outside looking in at that trauma,
but even I can feel it, right? But there is something about like the the
standard of believing. Like belief, that does seem to have changed in a
palpably encouraging way in the last month.
GOLDBERG: Right, again, it`s why all these people are suddenly coming
forward, right? Because a lot of these stories were known. There was one
story, there is somebody who, a media figure who recently resigned. I
tried to report that story a year-and-a-half ago, and people were not
willing to talk publicly and now they are, because they know that they will
be believed. They know that – and they know that these – that this is no
longer considered acceptable, that`s the other thing. There is sort after
a question of some of this behavior was, not Harvey Weinstein`s scale, but
maybe some of the lesser, you know, (inaudible) tier that was just
considered – that was what is considered acceptable has
changed extremely quickly. And so now people have grounds to make
complaints, that just didn`t exist previously.
BASSETT: I`m also heartened by seeing so many men doing a lot of genuine
self reflecting and thinking really hard about how they contribute to a
rape culture all the time. I`ve had men in my life approach me and, say,
OK, if I want to hit on a co-worker, what is OK? You know, is any office
romance OK? If I want to DM someone, what makes it creepy?
And on the one hand, I`m frustrated that I have to explain how not to
sexually harass people, on the other hand, let`s have those conversations.
I would rather that than what was happening before.
HAYES: There is a lot of auditing I think that people are doing, men are
doing, of their behavior that I think is really useful and needed and
GOLDBERG: It is. Although, I really worry – I mean, I really worry that
as we conflate like creepy direct messages with harassment and rape and
conflate these sort of borderline cases with systematic harassment, I very
much worry about the coming backlash.
You know, the reason that this is happening in left of center cultural
institution, but not really in right of center cultural institutions is
because at least everybody in left of cultural institutions agrees
that there is a problem, even if they`re behaving hypocritically and so you
have kind of…
HAYES: Right. Even if you even see that in the statement of Weinstein who
is just sort peak of this whole thing.
GOLDBERG: Right, so people are willing to act on, you know, you kind of –
a couple of
credible charges come forward and people are very quickly, you know, losing
their jobs, being stripped of titles, all those sorts of thing. And I hope
that that continues to be the rule. I worry that people are looking for an
excuse not to have to do that.
HAYES: Well, and Roy Moore seems to be a test case right now. I mean, you
have people saying like not only is it fake, not only is it not true, but
like even if it is…
BASSETT: Right. The most stunning comment I read was, well, Jesus and
Mary – Joseph was way older than Mary. She was a teenager when she had
Jesus, and so this is – you know, in the Bible says it`s OK.
HAYES: And you have seen Rush Limbaugh talking about – oh, and you`re not
going to be able to look at women`s breasts.
GOLDBERG: But again I think goes to the different set of standards. I
mean, on the one hand you have this clearly liberal culture is full of.
HAYES: Hypocrites, right?
GOLDBERG: Full of pigs, but at least there are these standards that allow
people to be held accountable.
HAYES: All right, Laura Bassett and Michelle Goldberg, thanks for being
here tonight. That is All In for this evening.
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