Texas Church Shooting Transcript 11/6/17 All In with Chris Hayes

Renato Mariotti, Jennifer Rubin, Evan McMullin

Date: November 6, 2017
Guest: Renato Mariotti, Jennifer Rubin, Evan McMullin

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: – right now, that President Trump has someone
along with him like that. And that`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being
with us. “ALL IN” with Chris Hayes starts right now.



is a wonderful man. I think he has been treated very, very unfairly by the

HAYES: An NBC News exclusive. Robert Mueller has enough evidence to bring
charges in the Flynn investigation. Tonight the latest on Flynn, Flynn
Jr., Trump Jr., and Paul Manafort.

TRUMP: I feel badly for him because I always found him to be a really a
very nice person.

HAYES: Then, what we`re learning from the transcripts of Carter Page`s
marathon testimony to House Intel.

to deny that I talked with them.

HAYES: And Senator Kirsten Gillibrand on the failure of politics in the
face of gun violence.

TRUMP: This isn`t a gun situation.

HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York, I`m Chris Hayes. One week after we
learned that Robert Mueller had brought indictments against two top Trump
campaign officials, announced a guilty plea for a third, all eyes now on a
former high-ranking official in the Trump administration itself, Michael
Flynn, a man who spent 24 days in the White House as the President`s
National Security Adviser. NBC News exclusively reporting that Mueller now
has enough evidence to file charges in the investigation into Flynn and his
son Michael Flynn Jr., according to multiple sources familiar with
Mueller`s investigation. To be clear, NBC is not – NBC News is not
reporting who might be charged, only that there is sufficient evidence to
file charges in that investigation.

Three sources tell NBC News that investigators plan to soon speak with
multiple witnesses to gather more information about Flynn`s lobbying work,
including whether he laundered money or lied to federal agents about his
overseas contacts. Now, that news comes as the two former Trump campaign
aides facing indictments – that would be Campaign Chairman Paul Manafort
and his deputy Rick Gates – were back in court today. The federal judge
ruling they must remain under house arrest with their movements tracked by
GPS devices as they continue to negotiate a possible bail package. The
President weighed in on Manafort in an interview with conservative media
company Sinclair Broadcast Group.


TRUMP: The reputation I always felt was very good and I had him for a
short period of time. You know, he was only in there for a very finite
period of time. But, you know, I feel badly for him because I always found
him to be a really a very nice person.


HAYES: As for Michael Flynn, were Mueller to file an obstruction of
justice charge against the President, it would likely be Flynn at the
center of it. Former FBI Director James Comey says the President pressured
him to drop the FBI investigation into Flynn over Flynn`s conversations
with the Russian Ambassador during the Presidential Transition. Remember,
Flynn, denied discussing U.S. sanctions against Russia with the Ambassador
during several exchanges, including, according to the Washington Post,
during an interview with the FBI. But intercepted communications
reportedly contradicted Flynn`s account. Now Comey says he refused to drop
the Flynn investigation. Shortly afterward, Trump fired him, which led to
Mueller being named Special Counsel.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think you would ever consider trying to have
Mueller removed or have you pledged to just stay out of that?

TRUMP: Well, I hope he is treating everything fairly. And if he is, I`m
going to be very happy. Because when you talk about innocent, I am truly
not involved in any form of collusion with Russia, believe me.


HAYES: After the presidential campaign last year was over, Flynn, just
like the now indicted Paul Manafort, retroactively went on to register as a
foreign agent. During a period when he was attending secret intelligence
briefings with then-Candidate Trump, Flynn was being paid more than half a
million dollars to lobby on behalf of the Turkish government. He even had
the audacity to write a pro-Turkish government op-ed that ran on the
election day in 2016 in which he called on the U.S. to extradite strong men
Recep Tayyip Erdogan`s chief antagonist. A man by the name of Fethullah
Gulen, he`s a Muslim cleric living in exile in Pennsylvania who Erdogan
blames for last year`s failed coup.

A senior law enforcement official tells NBC News`s Ken Dilanian that in the
weeks after Trump was inaugurated, the FBI was asked to conduct a new
review of Turkey`s request to extradite Gulen. It`s not clear whether the
request came from Flynn. I`m joined now by the Ken Dilanian, NBC News
Intelligence and National Security Reporter who`s been doing some amazing
reporting on this story. Let`s start with that. So we learn that he got
half a million dollars to represent essentially Turkish interests through
an intermediary. We know he wrote that op-ed saying, “Do you actually
think about expediting Fethullah Gulen which is a key goal of Erdogan.”
What do we know about this review of extradition that would – that would
have happened after Flynn was actually in the U.S. government?

the very basics, Chris, just what we said in the story, which is that the
FBI was asked during the Trump administration while Mike Flynn was the
National Security Adviser to take another look at this. And they had no
reason to reexamine it because they had already looked at it during the
Obama administration and had no evidence to fulfill Turkey`s extradition
request for this cleric Fethullah Gulen who lives in the Poconos and who`s
like public enemy number one for the government of Turkey.

One thing I want to add to your wonderful summary there is that Mike Flynn
at one point, in the wake of the Turkish coup actually gave a public
statement saying the Turkish coup could be a good thing. And then he
completely 180 changed when he began being paid on behalf of what we now
know by the government of Turkey. And he published that op-ed on election
day, which basically had Turkish government talking points. I mean, it
wasn`t even disguised. A lot of people look at that and said obviously
Mike Flynn didn`t think he was going to win the election. Because why
would he publish that on election day? But that`s I think one of the
really important things about this story is that we are now saying that
Mike Flynn`s conduct as National Security Adviser is under scrutiny by
Robert Mueller in connection with this Gulen arrangement.

HAYES: All right. So I want to be just a little clear there and then
we`ll move on to the reporting about sufficient evidence. Because I want
to you know, impact that. But I mean, the key there is this is someone who
was an unregistered foreign agent that`s established half a million dollar
contract to essentially represent Turkish interests, writes that op-ed.
And there`s some question about whether that overlapped while he was in the
White House, right? I mean, we don`t know. I`m not saying that`s the case
but it seems to me that that`s a road investigators are looking at.

DILANIAN: That is absolutely at issue according to our sources, it`s what
official acts Mike Flynn took that seemed to align with his financial
interests in terms of orchestrating the extradition of Gulen to Turkey.

HAYES: Yes, which is, I should note a big deal. And as Law Professor
Steve Vladeck pointed out almost certainly, if were – if were the case to
be proven a felony. Let`s talk about the idea sufficient charges in the
Flynn investigation. Explain that reporting a little bit for us.

DILANIAN: Yes, Chris. And we`re not trying to be cute here. Obviously,
both of these men, Mike Flynn, the former National Security Adviser and his
son appear to be in serious criminal jeopardy. We just don`t have the
precision of sourcing. We are not saying you know, charges are imminent
against both men. What we`re saying is that Mueller has the evidence
sufficient to file charges. Charges could come. Charges may not come if
they are negotiating a cooperation arrangement.

HAYES: Right.

DILANIAN: If they reach a deal to cooperate, we may not see charges,

HAYES: All right, Ken Dilanian, thanks for being with me.

DILANIAN: Good to be with you.

HAYES: With me now, former Federal Prosecutor and Illinois Attorney
General Candidate Renato Mariotti, a frequent guest on the show. All
right, let`s talk about Flynn Jr. and the behavior of Flynn and Flynn Jr.
This is Flynn Jr. who – it`s not just that he`s his father`s son, he was a
partner in their business enterprise. He was his adviser. He was
originally going to be brought in to get security clearance as a staffer to
his father, National Security Adviser. Him this morning, Flynn Jr., the
SJW route in full this morning, the disappointment on your faces when I
don`t go to jail will be worth all your harassment. I believe that was
yesterday. He also retweeted something accusing Robert Mueller of having
conspired with Hamas. What do you make of this as behavior from someone
currently under investigation with possible criminal exposure?

something I really have not seen before in my experience as federal
prosecutor or not only in my cases but just observing other cases.
Typically when people are facing a federal indictment, they`re crapping
their pants so to speak. They are very concerned. They`re sitting,
they`re huddling with their lawyers, it is a big deal. It`s a scary thing.
You know, usually, you are not trying to upset the prosecutor. You`re
usually trying to see if you can convince them not to indict. So this sort
of thumbing your nose at the prosecution, you know, it tells me that either
these people are extremely foolish or they are angling for a pardon in some

HAYES: Or maybe they think they`re totally innocent, and that the
government has nothing on them.

MARIOTTI: You know, that`s really hard to believe. I`m sorry. I don`t
really believe that. I think that, you know, they`ve got smart lawyers.
Michael Flynn seems like to me he`s had a very intelligent lawyer. I mean,
the father does. I think that they`re very soberly explaining this to
their client. If not, they`re not doing their jobs. You know, Mueller and
his team have amassed significant evidence. If this reporting is accurate,
which I presume it is with all the sourcing, you know, they`re telling
people either Flynn or on themselves or these lobbyists that they`re trying
to potentially get to cooperate, that you know, they`re – they essentially
have the goods on Flynn. They`re going to be pursuing indictments.

HAYES: Yes, we should note that – it jumped out to me that there are two
things that reporting indicates Flynn has done, which is lie to federal
investigators when they asked him – when the FBI first questioned him
about the conversations he had with Kislyak about sanctions and also didn`t
register as a foreign agent.


HAYES: Both of which are, you know – that`s what George Papadopoulos
pleaded guilty to lying, and not registering as a foreign agent is one of
the things that Manafort is being indicted for.

DILANIAN: Right. And the second one, I will tell you, not registering as
a foreign agent is a very straightforward thing for a prosecutor to prove.
That`s the sort of charge prosecutors love because either you registered or
you didn`t. I mean, it`s the sort of thing like, maybe there`s some way in
which Flynn could say I wasn`t really a foreign agent but you know, if
that`s something that Mueller can prove –

HAYES: Well, when you go and retroactively register, that sort of hurts
your case on that as well.

MARIOTTI: Well, it hurts the case on that. And it`s sort of – you know,
either you did or you didn`t. Prosecutors – things like that require
intent or prove whether you`re – you had the intent to defraud or
something like that. That can be complicated or corrupt intent. We`ve
talked about it on the show before. Something like this is a fairly
straightforward thing so how does Mike Flynn intend to beat that charge?
It`s hard to see.

HAYES: One of the dynamics that`s an issue here that isn`t normal in
criminal cases is the idea of pardons, right? Because the person at the
center of this is the President of the United States who has this
incredible power under the Article Two of the Constitution to pardon of
federal crimes. And the signals being sent back and forth, I want you to
listen to what he said about Manafort and just get your reaction to it in
this most recent interview. Take a listen.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What was it that convinced you he had to be let go?

TRUMP: Well, I think we found out something about he may be involved with
certain nations and I don`t even know exactly what it was in particular.
But there was a point at which we just felt Paul would be better off
because we don`t want to have any potential conflicts. And if there was a
conflict, I don`t want to be involved any conflicts, even though it was –I
could have kept him longer, I don`t think anybody would have complained.
But we don`t want to have any potential conflicts of interest at all.


HAYES: No potential conflicts of interest.

MARIOTTI: It`s kind of weird, right? It`s not at all what we`ve seen from
this President said so far. I mean, we had the ethics– Head of the Ethics
Walter Shaub leave because he was so concerned about the conflicts in the
administration. There doesn`t seem to be much interest in clearing that
up. In fact, I think you know, his assets have not yet been moved to
really a blind trust like they should be. So it`s – that`s hard to
believe. You know, I think a lot of the things we`re hearing from the
President right now are hard to believe. He`s been going around saying
he`s not under investigation which anybody with two eyes can see that he
is. I mean, if his lawyers are telling him that he is not under
investigation, they`re committing malpractice.

HAYES: One thing I would just remind people also is that the original sin
here that started all this was that phone call between Flynn and the
Ambassador that they lied about. If that hadn`t – I mean, that got the
ball rolling. So there`s something at the beginning of this, it`s useful
to sort of come back to remember where Flynn was. Renato Mariotti, it`s
great to have you here in New York City tonight.

MARIOTTI: Thank you very much.

HAYES: Joining me now Conservative Washington Post Columnist Jennifer
Rubin and former CIA Operative and Independent Presidential Candidate Evan
McMullin. And Jennifer, you know, it`s striking to me that the American
first campaign appears to have had a number of high level officials who
were essentially secret foreign agents.

most of them are connected to Russia, which is even more peculiar. You
know, if you talk to people who have been on presidential campaigns –
Democrats, Republicans, they have never seen anything like this. There
weren`t people communicating with the Russian government during the Bush
campaigns or during any other campaign. And then you have on top of that
the financial web that entails Jared Kushner, entails Trump`s son, entails
Trump himself. Now we learn that Wilbur Mills has a connection. So it`s a
lot of coincidences if that`s what it is. But we`ve never, I would
suggest, had either a campaign or certainly an administration that was this
intertwined with a hostile power after an election in which that hostile
power intervened on their behalf and that just stinks to high heaven.

HAYES: Well, and that – you know that pertains to Russia, which is sort
of true to the bulk. But Evan, one of the things that is interesting to me
– to me here, because I think it sets a – it gives you a sense of the
general atmosphere around this campaign is the Turkey part of it, right? I
mean, there`s no reason to believe that Turkey did anything like Russia did
in the campaign and intervened. But here you`ve got a guy who is one of
the senior advisers to a guy – the presidential candidate of one of the
major parties. And on election day, he is using that opportunity to write
an op-ed on behalf of essentially his foreign client. It`s hard to
conceive of that in another presidential campaign setting, or am I wrong?

absolutely right, Chris. I mean, what you have here is an example of how
much leadership really matters, both good and bad. And when you have a
presidential candidate who sets the tone in the way President Trump did,
not releasing his tax returns, encouraging Russia to interfere in our
elections, then the signal is received by especially his team. And indeed
it was.

And not only, by the way, is that signal received by his team, it`s also
received by interlocutors around the world, foreign governments, especially
authoritarian or dictatorships that people are for sale in Washington, at
least in that campaign and potentially in the administration in the case
that President Trump won, which he of course did. So it`s a signal that
goes out far and wide. And it sells out country out, our integrity, our
interests, most importantly the sovereignty of the American people to
choose their own leaders and have them serve in their interests and their
interests alone and have them be accountable to them, the people. That`s
what`s for sale now under this administration.

HAYES: Not only, that Jennifer, I mean, I am reminded of the fact that a
central campaign theme was that Hillary Clinton was essentially a foreign
agent, that she essentially had outsourced American interests to whoever
had given cash to the Clinton Foundation or something like that. And
meanwhile, we`ve got Paul Manafort and – I mean, these are guys who are at
the very, very top of this campaign, which was small campaign and not that
many people. You`ve got two people at the very top who are functioning
literally cashing checks on behalf of representing the interests of foreign

RUBIN: And that tells us a few things. First of all, it reminds us that
they had no competent people on that campaign, and very few people in the
administration because he was toxic. Most of the foreign policy
professionals on the right or the center-right really were writing letters,
correctly as it turns out, saying he is unfit to serve. So he didn`t have
quality people. Second problem you had is apparently no one was vetted.
It was well-known that Paul Manafort represented all kinds of horrible
people, dictators, authoritarians, thugs. So did Trump not know that? Was
there any vetting process? And third, there is a question as to how much
they knew about Flynn during the transition period.


RUBIN: Were they told? Did they know? Did they not know? Who exactly
was told? And that also involves the Vice President and Governor Christie.

HAYES: Evan, there has been some interesting (INAUDIBLE) of polling
recently in the wake of the Mueller indictment that reflects that actually
awareness of what happened with Manafort`s indictments relatively high,
that people who think the president Committed a crime is quite high. And
it`s interesting because for a long time people thought well, this is not
really front of mine for folks. Polling suggest it has changed a little
bit. I wonder how central you think this is, at least for Republicans or
conservatives that you know, how central is their understanding of this
story to their evaluation of the President?

MCMULLIN: Well, I would say among Republicans, it`s still – it`s still
the case that most Republicans are supporting the President. I mean, you
see that I think 64 percent of Americans are now saying that they believe
the Russia investigation is important and that I think there may have been
a serious wrongdoing there. But then there is 32 percent that are in the
camp that say no, we don`t think it`s that important, and it shouldn`t be
investigated. My hunch is that that 32 percent is also 32 percent that
supports President Trump. These are probably people who are – who are
consuming conservative media that – it`s not just conservative media, but
conservative media that has really become Trump media. It`s less
conservative, it`s just Trump media.

And so they`re receiving a steady diet of lies and misinformation about the
importance of this and about the progress of the investigation and they`re
receiving disinformation about the wrongdoing of President Trump`s
political opponents and all of or the alleged wrongdoing. So it`s very
hard. I think those people will still skeptical. I think what happens,
though, is that in moderate districts that are held by Republicans, it`s a
problem there and it`s a problem for Republicans there. They`re going have
a hard time I think increasingly holding on to those seats. And those
seats are the majority makers. So at a certain point, first, Republican
leadership will say hey, wait a second, we`ve got a problem. I don`t think
they`re going to be able to dig out of it in time for 2018. But you`re
still going to have members from deep red districts who have – are
supported by constituents who are unfortunately being misled by other
outlets. And that`s going to present a long – an ongoing challenge, I

HAYES: All right, Jennifer Rubin and Evan McMullin, thanks to you both.

MCMULLIN: Thank you.

HAYES: Next, the Trump Team`s latest surprise disclosure on Russian ties.
New revelations tonight that a top member of the Trump administration has
shared business interests with the family of Vladimir Putin. That story
after this quick break.


HAYES: If you`re keeping track of Trump associates who`ve got undisclosed
connections to Russia, you can add Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross to the
list tonight. Thanks to the leak of more than 7 million documents from a
Bermuda law firm, the so-called paradise papers which are making a splash
around the world. We now know that Ross retains to this day an interest in
a shipping company that makes millions of dollars a year from a Russian
energy company whose owners include Vladimir Putin`s son-in-law. And NBC
News found that Ross, “failed to clearly disclose those interests when he
was being confirmed for his cabinet position. In a statement, the Commerce
Department said that Wilbur Ross recuses himself as Secretary from any
matter regarding transoceanic shipping, which would seem like something the
Commerce Secretary should maybe not be recused from. In an interview with
CNBC today, Ross denied there was anything impropriety.


it at all. I think it`s just an example of the press trying to find
anything they can however remote or silly to attack the President and
somehow link him to Russia. This is nonsense.


HAYES: However, the New York Times pointed out, “while several Trump
campaign and business associates have come under scrutiny until now no
business connections have been reported between senior administration
officials and members of Mr. Putin`s family or inner circle. Ross does
share something in common with those previously discovered ties. We only
seem to learn about these connections once the people in Trump`s orbit have
already been found out. Only then does the administration come clean.
Congressman Eric Swalwell of California is on the House Intelligence
Committee which is conducting one of several investigations into Russian
election interference and potential Trump campaign ties. Congressman,
Secretary Ross says it`s nonsense, that this is essentially you`re look –
you know, the press is looking for these connections and manufacturing them
no matter how tenuous. What do you say to that?

Chris. What`s nonsense is that he was asked about his business connections
to Russia by the Senate and did not disclose these business ties to Putin`s
family. And, you know, just add him to the growing list of people on
Donald Trump`s team or in his family or from his businesses who had prior
business or personal or political relationships with Russia. And they all
failed to disclose it.

HAYES: I should – I should list those. The Washington Post did a really
good job of sort of running those down. I want to –

SWALWELL: Do you have an hour?

HAYES: Well, I`ll do a quick version. We have Paul Manafort, we have
Michael Cohen, we have Donald Trump Jr., we have Carter Page, we have Jared
Kushner, Michael Flynn, George Papadopoulos, J.D. Gordon, who was in that
infamous meeting we`ve all seen pictures of, and Jeff Sessions. That is
the nine people who had some kind of connections that they did not disclose
or they denied that later came to light. And now you have Wilbur Ross as
well. Senator Richard Blumenthal has called for Ross` resignation or an
I.G. investigation. Do you agree with either of those calls?

SWALWELL: Yes. Absolutely I do. I also think he should be a part of our
investigation. And you know, as a side note, Chris, this week
incidentally, you can`t make this up, we`re debating tax legislation that
would make it even easier for businesses as the tax policy center says to
offshore their profits and use shell companies like this, making it harder
for us to expose these types of relationships.

HAYES: There is also some – we got – some of the transcripts back from
Carter Page`s marathon session with your investigators. I don`t know if it
was in front of actual members or committee staff. I want to read first
what he said. I want to – I want to play what he said to me about denying
any official meetings or meeting with any officials when he was in Russia.
Take a listen.


PAGE: Again, I had no meetings, no serious discussions with anyone high up
or at any you know, official capacity.

HAYES: Let me ask you this.

PAGE: So it`s just kind of man on the street, you know.


HAYES: Is that true?

SWALWELL: No, false, completely false. And actually, we were able to–

HAYES: I can`t believe he lied to me.

SWALWELL: I know. I know. And Chris, we actually – this was a member in
an interview. And we were able to corroborate a number of allegations in
the dossier. So he in July 2016 met with the Deputy Prime Minister of
Russia. He met with officials from Gazprom and Rosneft, energy businesses
in Russia. Also, prior to going over to Russia, Sam Clovis asked Carter
Page to sign an NDA. And then a few months later he told Sam Clovis he was
going to Moscow. He did not tell him not to go. And then, when he got
back, he briefed Sam Clovis, as well as a number of other officials on the
campaign about his trip to Russia.

HAYES: What you make of Carter Page?

SWALWELL: You know, Carter Page is another team member who was eager to
use his relationships with the Russians to help the Trump team. And he
even was asking the Trump campaign what he should say when he was over
there in Russia. And just like George Papadopoulos, he was trying to
arrange a meeting between Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin. Now, this is a
theme that we`ve seen throughout the campaign team, not just Papadopoulos.
Remember, Felix Sater back in December of 2015 is telling Michael Cohen if
we can get Donald Trump and Putin together, we can engineer this and we can
make our boy president. So There`s a theme of trying to get dirt on
Hillary Clinton, trying to connect Donald Trump and Putin and of course
failing to disclose it to anyone.

HAYES: There`s a reporting today saying there is a bit of a split in the
diplomatic corps about the President`s upcoming meeting on the sidelines of
a summit with Vladimir Putin. They`re scheduled to meet face-to-face.
Obviously, there are some who feel that obviously this is a nation that we
have a lot of different issues with. We have to talk to them. There`s
others who feel that it will send the wrong signal. Do you have a strong
feeling on that?

SWALWELL: I have a very strong feeling Chris. What have we gotten out of
this relationship with Russia? They have received all the benefits. And
so, until the President wants to speak straight with Vladimir Putin and
tell him we know what you did, you`re going to pay a price for it and until
you stop – because I don`t think they have stopped –we`re not going to
welcome you at the table of responsible nations.

HAYES: All right, Congressman Eric Swalwell, thanks for your time.

SWALWELL: My pleasure.

HAYES: Next, the horrifying attack on a Texas church that killed 26 people
and the President`s very telling reaction, after this quick break.


HAYES: Yesterday a gunman identified as Devin Patrick Kelley used a gun to
murder 26 people at the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, Texas.
At least a dozen of the victims that he murdered with that gun were
children, and the deceased ranged in age from 18 months to 77 years old,
people that were worshipping on a Sunday. The mass shooting comes just one
month after what was the largest mass shooting in modern American history.
And that was when a lone gunman used multiple firearms, apparently, all
legally acquired to shoot and kill 58 people and wound more than 500 people
who were taking in a concert. And so horrifyingly, here we are again.
President Trump in Japan today, on the first leg of his five-nation tour of
Asia said that the massacre that occurred in Texas is not a gun issue.


TRUMP: I think that mental health is your problem here. This was a very -
- based on preliminary reports, very deranged individual. A lot of
problems over a long period of time. We have a lot of mental health
problems in our country, as do other countries. But this isn`t a guns
situation. I mean, we could go into it but it`s a little bit soon to go
into it. This is a mental health problem at the highest level. It`s a
very, very sad event. It`s a – these are great people, and a very, very
sad event. But that`s the way I view it.


HAYES: In the wake of mass atrocities, the president appears to have two
modes. If the assailant is Muslim, the president hardly waits until the
bodies are counted to politicize and to criticize and to hector and to
blame. And if the assailant is not, well, then, nothing, or something like

Compare his rhetoric this morning to his reaction to last week`s violence
in New York.


TRUMP: We need quick justice and we need strong justice, much quicker and
much stronger than we have right now, because what we have right now is a
joke and it`s a laughingstock.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. president, do you want the assailant from New York
sent to GITMO? Mr. President?

TRUMP: I would certainly consider that, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you considering that now,sir?

TRUMP: I would certainly consider that. Send him to GITMO, I would
certainly consider that, yes.


HAYES: Senator Kirsten Gillibrand of New York joins me next.


HAYES: Earlier today, Senator Ted Cruz of Texas described the church
shooting as an act of evil and gave what has become by now a well
rehearsed response from Republicans when asked about gun safety policy.


SEN. TED CRUZ, (R) TEXAS: We don`t need politics right now. You know, I
would note in New York we saw a terror attack just this week with a truck.
Evil is evil is evil, and will use the weaponry that is available.


HAYES: Joining me now, Senator Kirsten Gillibrand of New York. Senator,
your colleague Ted Cruz was down in Sutherland today. He was quite
passionate that Democrats and others shouldn`t
be politicizing this, angry that people would be invoking guns or talking
about guns in the wake of this mass shooting. What`s your response to

SEN. KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND, (D) NEW YORK: Well, I think he is wrong. Our
heart breaks, keep breaking over and over and over again. We cannot keep
allowing this to be the new normal. And I think it is outrageous that
congress has done nothing, has done nothing over the months
and months that we`ve seen gun violence, you know, terrible, unbelievable,
heinous crimes being committed, and literally done nothing.

HAYES: What do you say to people who are watching this who just feel
defeated and despondent on this issue. There is the ritualization of it,
the ritualization of the reaction to it, the ritualization to the backlash
to the reaction. People feel like politics are just not functional, right,
that there is nothing that can be done.

What do you say to someone who is feeling that way right now?

GILLIBRAND: Well, I hope they speak out, because nothing ever changes in
Washington unless regular people speak out and demand action. And I think
this whole country should be crying out for common sense gun reform,
because the reality is that you don`t need another disaster like this to
happen to know what has to be done. We should be banning assault weapons
and these military-style magazine clips. We should be banning the kinds of
guns that are being used in these crimes.

We have to snake sure we have universal background checks. We have to make
sure we have an anti-trafficking statute, like these are the kinds of
things we should be doing regardless of today`s news. It`s something that
I cannot believe the congress has failed to do anything.

In the five largest mass shootings in our nation`s history, three have
happened in the last 17 months.

HAYES: Why could you think that is? What is your understanding as a
legislator, as someone who has to think about solving policy problems?
What is your understanding of that?

GILLIBRAND: I can`t tell you, Chris. I don`t know. But I just know that
congress is doing nothing, and because they lack the courage to take on the
NRA. They simply lack the courage to
stand up and say this is about our communities, this is about safety, this
is about what`s important to us as a nation, and that we are not going to
be beholden to an industry that puts profits first, and that`s what we are
up against.

Too many members of congress do not have the courage to stand up and say

HAYES: You represent – you came up in politics in an area of the state of
New York, the state you now represent, where there are a lot of gun owners
in which the NRA is actually quite powerful. And I wonder what your
relationship is to them as an organization and to gun owners as a

GILLIBRAND: Well, you can have the Second Amendment and you can protect
hunters` rights,
but what I would urge all Americans to understand is that is not where the
American people are today. They want to make sure we end this kind of gun
violence. And you ask NRA members, you ask citizens across this country,
overwhelmingly they support this kind of common sense gun reform.

And just as advice to someone who doesn`t necessarily see the issue this
way you just need to
talk to someone who lost a family member to gun violence. You just have to
open your heart for a minute and feel for a second what it is like when
someone is taken away from you, because of gun violence. When you meet a
mom whose child was killed in a park in Brooklyn who is 4 years old you,
have you to do something. It is time past. This is not about hunting
rights, this is not about the Second Amendment, this is how do we keep our
communities safe? And all of us should be fighting for it together and
demanding these members of congress to do something.

HAYES: While I have you here, I want to ask you about a distinct but in
some ways related issue as we learn about the shooter`s relationship to
domestic violence, violence against women, a common thread we have to say
in many of these mass shootings, committed almost without exception by men.
The sort of dawning awareness about sexual harassment and sexual predation
that we`ve seen
sweeping across a variety of places, the AP reporting Capitol Hill in
particular, and something that you`ve talked about I think quite honestly
and talked about sort of trying to approach legislatively the environment
that you yourself work in congress.

GILLIBRAND: Well, right now congress doesn`t have a good set of policies
either. And what we`ve seen, Chris, over the last several months, whether
it`s Hollywood, whether it`s news media, whether it`s the NFL, whether it`s
college campuses, whether it`s the U.S. military, we do not have
transparency and accountability for sexual harassment or sexual violence.

And we need to speak out and do better. I think the me too campaign is one
of the most powerful campaigns we`ve had because it`s giving men and women
the courage to tell their stories so people can understand this is
pervasive. And it is prevalent. We have to do something about sexual
assault, sexual violence and sexual harassment in society in all places.
And so I`m working to make a bill that congress does a lot better than it
does today.

HAYES: Yeah, the policies which maybe we can follow up on at some point
are pretty opaque and sort of shockingly so.

Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, thank you for taking time.

GILLIBRAND: My pleasure. Thank you.

HAYES: Still ahead, what we now know about how Senator Rand Paul ended up
with five broken ribs after a dispute with his neighbor. That story coming

Plus, tonight`s Thing One, Thing Two starts next.


HAYES: Thing One tonight, if you know only one thing about the presidency
of Donald J. Trump, it`s that we are all going to follow just two simple


TRUMP: We will get our people off of welfare and back to work, rebuilding
our country with American hands and American labor. We will follow two
simple rules: buy American and hire American.


HAYES: Buy American and hire American; American hands, American labor.

Tonight, we have a brand new very special jobs report for you specifically
from Mar-a-Lago. And that`s Thing Two in 60 seconds.


HAYES: Tonight we have an important jobs report to bring you from Mar-a-
Lago, the luxury golf club and hotel in Florida. President Trump wins
visas to hire 70 foreign workers for Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach, that`s even
more workers than he brought on last year when Trump hired 64 foreign
workers at the Palm Beach property.

Mar-a-Lago isn`t the only Florida hotel that hires foreign workers for
seasonal jobs, but it is the only one whose owner was elected president
while repeatedly and relentlessly promising this…


TRUMP: My administration will follow two very simple rules – buy American
and hire American.

Buy American and hire American.

My administration will follow two simple rules – buy American and hire
American, right? We`re going do it.



HAYES: Senator Rand Paul is recuperating at his home in Bowling Green,
Kentucky tonight
after sustaining serious injuries on Friday. And it looks like he will not
be back in the Senate for an extended period of time. And on his Facebook
page, he gave a somewhat vague explanation of what happened: “Kelly and I
appreciate the overwhelming support after Friday`s unfortunate event.
Thank you for your thoughts and prayers.”

The unfortunate event in question is that while Paul was riding his mower
at his home wearing sound-muting earmuffs, Mr. Paul`s next-door neighbor,
Rene Boucher, came on to Mr. Paul`s property and tackled him from behind,
knocking him to the ground, which according to the senator`s chief of staff
resulted in five broken ribs and bruises to his lungs.

Now, Boucher was initially charged with fourth degree assault, released
Saturday on a $7500 bond. But given the extent of Paul`s injury,
prosecutors are reportedly considering upgrading the charges.

Meanwhile, the FBI is now involved as an assault on a member of congress is
a federal crime.

What possibly could cause Boucher to attack Rand Paul, a sitting U.S.
Senator, a man he
has lived next door to for 17 years?

In a statement, Boucher`s attorney said, quote, “it has absolutely nothing
to do with either his politics or political agendas. It was a very
regrettable dispute between two neighbors over a matter that most people
would regard as trivial.”

The New York Times Jonathan Martin reports that “two Kentuckians tell me
Rand`s neighborhood fracas stemmed from a dispute over some sort of
planting or flora issues around the properties.”

One big question now is just how long Paul`s recovery might take, and
whether five cracked ribs over a flora issue might affect the outcome of,
say, tax reform.

Meanwhile, in Virginia, there is is a vote tomorrow. And the big question
there is can the Trump playbook work when the candidate isn`t named Trump?
That`s next.


HAYES: On the eve of perhaps the most significant election since Donald
Trump won the White House, the Democratic party heads into tomorrow`s
governor`s race in Virginia facing many of
the same challenges they did facing Donald Trump on election day last year.

According to the latest polling average, Lieutenant Governor Ralph Northam,
the Democratic candidate, holds a thin lead over Ed Gillespie. Now going
into this race, the expectation at least on paper was that this should be a
win for Democrats.

After all, Hillary Clinton won Virginia by more than five points last
November, the president currently has a 35% approval rating there, and
Gillespie previously ran for U.S. Senate in Virginia in 2014, losing to
incumbent Democrat Senator Mark Warner.

But by running a campaign in which he`s managed to successfully weaponize
immigration with a series of adds linking a ban on sanctuary cities to the
presence of the Latino gang MS13, and challenging his Democratic opponents
on things like Confederate monuments and NFL players kneeling in protest,
Gillespie has, according to the president`s former Chief Strategist, Steve
Bannon,”closed an enthusiasm gap by rallying around the Trump agenda… in
Gillespie`s case, Trupism without Trump can show the way forward. If that`s
the case, Democrats better be very, very worried.”

With me now to answer whether Steve Bannon is right, Tom Perez who is the
Chair of the
Democratic National Committee. I guess, Tom, a lot of people watched
Gillespie run this race and they`ve called it Trumpism without Trump and a
lot of the same cultural war themes and white identity politics and the
monuments, and I guess the question is, what has the Democratic party
figured out in the year since Donald Trump was elected about how to
successfully counter that message?

TOM PEREZ, CHAIR OF THE DNC: It`s all about getting out there and talking
to people,
Chris. We made a massive investment in organizing. We`ve got to be talking
to people in every zip code and that`s exactly what we`re doing, and what
we`re hearing is very simple. I want to keep my health care because I have
a relative who`s opioid addicted. I want to make sure public education
works for everyone. I want to continue the progress that Terry McAuliffe
has brought to this state, working to make sure we`ve created jobs moving
forward, and I want an America that we can be proud of. That`s what I`m
hearing day in and day out.

I put 700 miles on the car just this weekend and that`s what I`m hearing
and that`s why I feel very, very good because the energy is everywhere.

HAYES: You know, you talk about competing in every zip code and there`s
been a big investment in Democratic challengers in those House Delegate
races. I know there`s a lot more of those than in years past. But
everything you`re ticking off there, which all sounds like perfectly good
policy, also sounds a lot like what the Clinton campaign ran on and I
wonder if you feel there`s an enthusiasm issue that the Democratic party
facing in getting its voters out in an off-year election like this.

PEREZ: Well, we always have to make sure that we`re turning people out in
these off-year cycles, and you mentioned something a couple of minutes ago,
a couple of seconds ago, Chris, that I think is so important. I think it`s
not a secret weapon but I think it`s an enormous weapon in this race, and
that is the number 88. There are 88 Democrats running for the House of
Delegates. Now, in an ordinary cycle, if you go back the last four or five
cycles here in Virginia, there`s been 40 or 45 Democrats that have won. To
put it differently, we have seeded half or more of the House of
Delegates.No opposition.

And not only do we have 88 Democrats running, and I have spoken to almost
all of them, all of the challengers, they`re spectacular and they are out

There`s a candidate down in Roanoke whose fiance was tragically murdered in
an incident. She was a local broadcast journalist and a disgruntled
employee came in and shot her on the air. It was just a horrific incident.

HAYES: Remember it.

PEREZ: And her fiance is running and he`s running a spirited race. We`re
poised to elect the first two Latinas in the history of the state of the
commonwealth of Virginia to the House of Delegates.
And I`ll tell you, the energy that is generated and I was out with one of
the candidates, a woman named Elizabeth Guzman who is running here in
Northern Virginia and you have the Labor Movement supporting her, the DNC
we`re all in. With that sort of energy, it`s a secret weapon.

HAYES: I want to ask you about something you just said, when you talk
about seeding or not
running anyone in half the House Delegate races. So this year there was
this real effort to be competitive everywhere and it dovetails with the
critique of the party and the party apparatus that is in Donna Brazile`s
book, and she`s not the first to make it, which is that essentially the
party institution by the end of the Obama years was bankrupt financially,
that it was not doing the things it should, it wasn`t doing the things like
helping to field candidates in every race and it was essentially busted

Is that an accurate characterization of the DNC that you inherited
basically less than a year ago?

PEREZ: Well, the old DNC was about electing a president every four years.
The new DNC is about electing Democrats up and down the ticket from the
school board to the oval office. We`re all about making sure we take off
year out of the lexicon of the Democratic party.

We knocked on half a million doors this past summer, a so called off year.
Ain`t an off year anymore. We also made voter contact via phones, texts and
other social media with another 500,000
people. We have to do that because today`s school board member is
tomorrow`s mayor, is a decade
from nows president. We`re weren`t doing that, Chris, that`s a fair
critique, but we are doing it now.

HAYES: I want to talk about the messaging stakes for tomorrow. Gillespie
barely inked out a primary against Corey Stewart. Corey Stewart ran very
hard on preserving Confederate monuments to the confederacy. Gillespie has
adopted that, he`s adopted a sanctuary cities language of the president,
which has also been exported to New Jersey where it`s being used, kneeling
during the National
Anthem, he`s sent out mailers about that.

What message has said it sent if that message works in defeating Democrats

PEREZ: Well, that message isn`t going to work. Phil Murphy is going to win
going away and we`re going to make history in New Jersey with the first
African-American Lutenient Governor. Here in Virginia with Ralph Northam
and Justin Fairfax and with Mark Herring we`re sending a very, very clear

Ralph Northam has been a healer his entire life. That`s what Virginia is
looking for and, frankly, that`s what America is looking for. They are
looking for healers and we`re not going to…

HAYES: I hope the voters of Virginia, the people of America and everywhere
are looking for healers. Lord, would I love to live in that timeline. I`m
not sure that`s the one we`re living in, but we`re going to find out
tomorrow if you`re right about that.

Tom Perez, thanks for joining us.

PEREZ: Yes, we will.

But always a pleasure, Chris.

HAYES: Tomorrow night, I will sit down with former interim chair of the
Democratic National Committee, whose book has been causing huge waves,
Donna Brazile.

That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts right now.
Good evening, Rachel.



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