All in with Chris Hayes, Transcript 9/7/17 Hillary Book Excerpts
Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES
Date: September 7, 2017
Guest: Eric Swalwell, Michelle Goldberg
CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: That`s HARDBALL for now. Thank you for being
with us. “ALL IN” with Chris Hayes starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Tonight on ALL IN.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: It`s the largest
hurricane they`ve ever seen coming out of Atlantic.
HAYES: As the President waits for Hurricane Irma, his son faces the music.
TRUMP: My son is a wonderful young man.
HAYES: Tonight, at the Mueller investigation moves inside the White House,
what we`ve learned from Donald Trump Jr.`s interview in the Senate today.
SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D), CONNECTICUT: Raised more questions than
HAYES: And what we know about his changing story.
TRUMP JR.: I don`t think my sirens you know, went up, or the antennas went
HAYES: Then after yesterday`s deal, the Democratic leader goes right to
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: This is – I asked the
President to do it and boom, boom, boom, the tweet appeared.
HAYES: I`ll ask Senator Bernie Sanders if Democrats should trust the
President. And as Irma bears down on Florida, a look at the daunting task
of evacuating massive cities.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you`re told to evacuate, get out.
HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Good evening from New York, I`m Chris Hayes. Tonight, South
Florida is racing to prepare for the worst as Hurricane Irma continues on
its path of destruction through the Caribbean. At this hour, Irma is
moving towards the Bahamas with maximum sustained wind of 175 miles per
hour. The category five storm already blamed for this nine deaths, a state
of emergency has been declared in the U.S. Virgin Islands which took a
direct hit from Irma yesterday. And in Puerto Rico which was spared the
worst of the storm, more than a million people are still without power.
According to the latest forecast, the hurricane is now on track to hit
South Florida by Sunday forcing tens of thousands of people to evacuate out
of harm`s way and the City of Miami is in the crosshairs. First, let`s go
to NBC News Meteorologist Bill Karins with the latest. Bill, what`s it
BILL KARINS, NBC NEWS METEOROLOGIST: Good evening to you Chris. It is
looking horrible right now for the Turks and Caicos. They`re getting it
just as bad as the British Virgin Islands. There`s the eye of the
hurricane going right over the island as I speak and you can see the sun
setting on the storm. Now, currently, 175-mile-per-hour winds, still a
very powerful cat five. And look now, you can see there`s the Bahamas and
there`s Miami. That`s how close the storm is already getting to South
Florida. We only have really all day tomorrow for the final preps and then
weather will start go downhill. Hurricane watches (INAUDIBLE) Lake
Okeechobee is now even having evacuations around it. And of course, on the
Florida west and east side, we are all at risk from this storm.
I`ll show you our computer models because these are the two things, are two
really reliable long range models are now at excellent agreement. This is
2:00 a.m. Sunday and as we go throughout the morning hours, the storms,
both of them, take it right through South Florida. We still have 48 hours
for some shifts. We still are very concerned with the West Coast and the
East Coast. We do not yet know who will be hit the worst. But the storm
approaching from the south, the dirty side, the worst side of the storm
surge and the wind is the east side. So that`s why we`re especially
concerned with Key Largo to Miami all through West Palm Beach and Fort
If it shifts further west, then it`ll bring those stronger winds in the
Naples and Fort Myers. But on this path, that`s the area of greatest
concern and a lot of our smaller computer model that we have, these are
updated about every six hours. They all still are all pointing directly
out Southeast Florida. I mean, this is excellent agreement, 48 hours out.
This shows the strongest of the storm, 8:00 a.m. Sunday morning with the
potential for even Miami to be in the eye of the hurricane which I mean, a
category four or five hurricane right over the top of Miami is possible.
And turn your TVs on as we go throughout early Sunday morning. And then
storm just races further up to the North. I mean, we`re in the potential
here for the hurricane force winds not only to be in Southeast Florida but
potential to be right through the state. This is another of our short
range models. It comes out every three hours and this shows you the wind
field. When we get to the purple, that`s when the power starts to go out.
That 8:00 p.m. Saturday on the Keys and starting to approach Miami as we go
throughout 8:00 p.m. Saturday. That`s when you start to see those green
flashes, the transformers blowing into distances and then the power will
start going out. So it could be a pretty scary night as the power goes out
and then the winds really increase.
Now, this model is a little further to the East than the other ones.
Again, they`re from anywhere on the West Coast still to the East Coast. We
have a big about 50 to 60-mile-an-hour range here where the storm could.
So because it shows it offshore doesn`t mean that`s going to happen. It`s
just, I just want to show you how big the wind field is. The white is the
hurricane force winds and the hurricane center has that directly over the
top of the state Chris.
So the bottom line is, tomorrow is the final day for preparations, it`s the
final day really because – for evacuations – because by the time we get
to Saturday, especially Saturday evening, the weather will quickly go
downhill. And Chris, I just want to tell you one other thing, I was just
talking to my family members in Florida, they can`t even get hotel rooms in
Georgia. People have to drive even further than that to find a safe place
HAYES: All right, Bill Karins, thank you for that. That is sobering.
We`re going to have much more on the storm later tonight. Tomorrow we`ll
be live at 8:00 p.m. from Miami, Florida. I`ll be there through the
weekend as the category five storm makes landfall. And then there`s the
big news on Capitol Hill today. That`s the President`s eldest son Donald
Trump Jr. going before congressional investigators for the first time to
answer questions about his meeting during the campaign with Russian
nationals, Russian nationals who are promising dirt on Hillary Clinton from
the Russian government.
The President`s son was grilled for five hours by the staff of the Senate
Judiciary Committee with a handful of Senators sitting in. And the
reaction Democrats could be sound up from the statement released afterwards
by Senator Chris Coons, warning that while Don Junior wasn`t under oath,
“It is important to remember that anyone who testifies in front of the
Senate Committee is under the restrictions of the false statements statute
that says material false statements to Congress are criminal and punishable
with fines or imprisonment or both.”
The interview took place behind closed doors in a secure facility on
Capitol Hill. The President`s son managed to get in and out without having
to face the press or cameras but NBC News obtained a copy of the prepared
statement he gave to investigators which offer yet another explanation for
taking that meeting at Trump Tower in June 2016. By our account, at least
the third or possibly fourth version today. First, it was the misleading
public statement approved by the President himself describing the meeting
as primarily about an adoption program. Then after e-mails emerged showing
Don Junior had been promised ” information that would incriminate Hillary,
part of Russia and it`s government`s support for Mr. Trump, we were told
that seeking dirt on your point from a hostile foreign power was perfectly
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think from a practical standpoint, most people would have taken
that meeting. It`s called opposition research or even research into your
opponent. I`ve had many people – I have only been in politics two years
but I`ve had many people call up, oh gee, we have information on this
factor or this person or frankly Hillary. That`s very standard in
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Now Don Jr. says it was his patriotic duty to take the meeting with
Russian agents, “To the extent they had information concerning the fitness,
character or qualifications of a presidential candidate, I believe that I
should at least hear them will out.” Well, he previously insisted the
whole meeting was above board, Don Junior now acknowledges the potential
red flags, telling the Committee, “Depending on what, if any information
they had, I could then consult with counsel to make an informed decision as
to whether to give it further consideration.”
And in his statement, the President`s son confirms for the first time what
we right here on the show suspected, that there were undisclosed phone
calls between Don Junior and his intermediaries in addition to the e-mail
traffic setting up the meeting.
According to Don Junior, his phone records show three short phone calls
with Emin Agalarov, remember that Russian pop star connected to the Trump
family business through his father who helped set up the meeting. But Don
Junior says I do not recall speaking to Emin. It is possible we left each
other voicemail messages. I simply do not remember. He told the Committee
he never discussed the meeting again after it took place or even gave it a
second thought. And he says neither he nor anyone he knows have colluded
with the foreign government during campaign. Following his five hour
interview today, Don Junior released a statement thanking the Committee for
their professionalism, emphasizing his own candor and adding “I trust this
interview fully satisfied their inquiry.” But the members of the Committee
don`t sound satisfied. According to Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal,
this won`t be Don Junior`s last trip to Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLUMENTHAL: Today was another step but more like a beginning, because he
needs to come before the Judiciary Committee in public under oath and
answer many of the same questions. Because today he raised questions, as
well as answering – in fact raising more questions than has been answered.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell, a Member of the House
Intelligence Committee which is conducting its own investigation of the
Trump campaign`s potential ties to Russia. And Congressman, based on the
reports that are available publicly, are you satisfied that Don Junior
answered all the questions he needs to answer?
REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D), CALIFORNIA: Good evening Chris. And first, just
with respect to that storm, I want to assure the stranded Americans in the
Caribbean Island that`s Republicans and I are working together in a
bipartisan way to get them out of there. They are already suffering. I`m
working them tonight on that with the State Department. With respect to
Don Junior, Chris, no, not at all. It`s time for him to come clean under
oath. Tell us the prologue and the epilog from that contact he had at the
Trump Tower. It`s also remarkable Chris that he doesn`t the recall the
follow-up phone calls. This sounds like Jared Kushner who didn`t even
recall the meeting. It`s like possible side effects from meetings with
Russians include completely forgetting the meeting`s even ever happened.
HAYES: Let me ask you then straight up. Do you not believe them? When
they say – when Don Junior says I don`t remember, is he lying?
SWALWELL: It is – it is unbelievable that they would have so many
meetings with the foreign adversary during the election and then just
completely not being able to recall them. So no, I don`t believe them.
And there`s too many of them who have failed to recall. There`s no
innocent explanation any further. It`s a pattern of deception, a pattern
of failing to recall and it looks like a pattern to avoid accountability.
HAYES: Richard Blumenthal says he wants to see Don Junior back. There`s
all sorts of questions about these various lines of investigation. There`s
the Senate Judiciary Committee, there`s the Senate Intelligence Committee,
there`s your Committee in the House Intelligence Committee. Are you
planning to bring Don Junior in?
SWALWELL: We would like him in. Yes, we want everyone who was a part of
that e-mail chain and who attended the Trump Tower meeting. Yes, we want
to hear from them all with their hand raised under oath.
HAYES: Do you believe that nothing happened – as a result of that
meeting, that no one ever talked about it again?
SWALWELL: No. It doesn`t make sense, Chris. Again, when you read the e-
mail exchange, it looks like there was a prior existing relationship. And
when you hear from you know, Don Junior and the limited information that
Jared Kushner provides, it`s hard to imagine that there wasn`t follow-up.
And so that`s why the best thing that the President can do and the people
on this team can do is to just come forward and be forthcoming about what
happened. What were the personal, political and financial relationships?
And also, for Republicans to show unity with Democrats in wanting to get to
the bottom of this because our disunity only sharpens the knives for the
Russians and prevents us from strengthening our own shield as we go to the
HAYES: Finally, a member of your Committee, the Chair of your Committee,
Devin Nunes who sort of have recused himself for this inquiry, is now
threatening contempt at Attorney General and the Director of the FBI over
any documents not being turned over related to that infamous Steele
Dossier. Whal is your reaction to that?
SWALWELL: It slows us down, Chris. He shouldn`t be a part of anything
involving Russia. He had recused himself. He`s also asking for something
that he has not been denied. The custom has been that Republicans and
Democrats ask for voluntary cooperation from witnesses. If they deny it,
then we consider sending a subpoena. There`s no evidence that they were
denied this. And what they`re trying to do is to undermine the purpose
behind the Steele Dossier rather than looking at what was alleged in the
Steele Dossier. Again, it is just a misguided way of conducting this
investigation. And the worst thing that we`re doing is showing disunity
and making it easier for the Russians to come at us again.
HAYES: Congressman Eric Swalwell, thanks for your time.
SWALWELL: My pleasure.
HAYES: MSNBC Legal Contributor Jill Wine Banks, former Assistant Watergate
Special Prosecutor, and Barbara McQuade also an MSNBC Legal Contributor,
former U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan. Jill, let me
start with you. What kind of legal exposure do you think Don Junior has?
JILL WINE BANKS, MSNBC LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: He has obviously perjury or
false statement liability. I have to say that telling the truth is not a
multiple choice exercise and that seems to be what he`s doing. As you
pointed out, he`s had a number of explanations for the meeting. And the
only one that makes sense is what the words of the e-mails say. The words
say we`re getting together to give you dirt on Hillary to help you win the
election and to hurt Hillary Clinton. That is the illegal act, taking
information from a foreign government, especially a foreign adversary is a
crime in and of itself. And then lying about it and giving multiple choice
answers is another crime. So he has a lot of legal liability.
HAYES: Barbara, I do not recall as an answer, I remember watching under
oath testimony, I think it was during around Iran-contra. There`s a lot of
I do not recalls in that testimony. That seems to be a way of sort of
threading the needle because who can say that you`re lying about what you
do and don`t remember. I mean, how much experience do you have with folks
under oath or expose the possibility of perjury charges while under oath
saying they don`t remember a thing?
BARBARA MCQUADE, MSNBC LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: Yes. That`s a common tactic. I
mean, sometimes people truly don`t remember things.
HAYES: Right, of course.
MCQUADE: I mean, this meeting happened over a year ago so it is a
possibility. But there are other pieces of evidence you can use to show
that that in itself is a false statement. If he had conversations with
others, has he gotten together Jared Kushner, Paul Manafort and others who
are at the meeting to get their stories straight? Has he written
documents? Has he talked to others? So you could find other evidence that
demonstrates that he does in fact recall. He just doesn`t want to tell
HAYES: One of the things that he says he doesn`t recall Jill, is how that
statement came together. And that statement is now the subject of some
fairly pointed inquiry Robert Mueller according to some reporting that says
that Mueller now wants to talk to White House staff about how that
statement was created. What do you make of that?
BANKS: I think it`s obviously strange to have him saying, I don`t
remember, I don`t recall and not to remember that statement particularly
and I want to point out that during Watergate, one of the tapes you can
hear the President saying, you can always say, I don`t remember, I don`t
recall and it is perjury to say that when you actually do remember. And
Barbara is very correct in saying, oftentimes, there are other elements
that will prove that they do remember. So that could be another case of
legal liability. In terms of – in terms of Mueller starting to go to
White House staff Barbara, I mean, here`s what`s interesting to me and I`d
like to hear what you think of this.
Crafting a statement that`s not true or misleading isn`t a crime. You
know, the President could lie to the American people all he wants and
that`s not – that it doesn`t run afoul of the law necessarily but it seems
that it must be related into what kind of conception they have with the
state of the mind of the President with respect to obstruction. Is that
MCQUADE: I think so. You know, of course, we can only speculate but is it
all part of a big scheme the try to obstruct the investigation into the
firing of Jim Comey, into the whole Russian investigation? So yes, I think
it is. They`re looking for evidence to sort of mislead and conceal others
and get them off the path of this big meeting. If he can get this out of
headlines and get people to stop talking about it, and get Mueller to think
that this was no big deal, then maybe he moves on. So although the act
itself is not a crime, I think it could be evidence of criminal intent.
HAYES: Do you expect – we know that some of the other people Jill have
gone before the grand – some of the grand jury that are – that are being
used by the Special Counsel Robert Mueller. Do you expect Don Junior will
have to do that at some point?
BANKS: I think it is a logical step. If you want to return indictments,
the grand jury needs to hear direct evidence from all the witnesses. And I
want to add one thing which is, I do think that lying to the public is not
a crime in and of itself but repeated lies, repeated misstatements,
repeated nondisclosures can be the pattern that shows that you are
obstructing justice. And I think in this case, we`re heading very quickly
to the conclusion that all the false statements are done deliberately to
throw the investigators and the Special Prosecutor off their mark and to
mislead them into investigating the wrong things.
HAYES: All right. Jill Wine Banks and Barbara McQuade, it`s always a
pleasure to have you both. Thank you very much.
MCQUADE: Thanks, Chris.
HAYES: John Sipher served for almost three decades in the CIA`s
Clandestine Service where he once ran the Agency of Russian Program. He
says that that infamous dossier on the President`s alleged connection to
Russia is starting to look more like truth than fiction. And John, I
appreciate you coming in because we`ve been wrestling for months with the
status to afford this document which is not verified, which we can`t check
independently as journalist or we can attempt to but it`s very hard. You
wrote a piece basically saying judging it generally credible. What was
your reasoning for that judgement?
JOHN SIPHER, FORMER SENIOR CIA OFFICER: Well, there`s so much information
out there and frankly, I can`t keep up with it and it`s hard to put it into
place. But what I can do is look at that rapport as a professional
intelligence officer and give some sense of what that is. It`s generally
called a dossier which suggests it`s a report you know, with a bow tied
around it that, you know, summarizes something. That`s not – that`s not
what it is. It`s a series of 17 raw intelligence reports similar to those
we wrote as human intelligence officers in the CIA. What you`re – in each
one of those, what you`re doing is you`re reporting good-faith effort of
what your sources are saying.
And they`re contemporaneous at the time and there`s a series of them going
through. And what they described was you know, a long term relationship
with Trump and the Trump family with Russia. They described a separate
effort to collect information on Mrs. Clinton and an effort to marry the
two to influence our election, and it talked about cyber-attacks, it talks
about some of the personalities. And what I tried to do was then look and
see what has happened since that time to see if there`s any validity to
what was reported.
HAYES: And what did you find when you – when you looked at particularly
thing – I mean, the sort of proof in the putting, right, is if things
happen after those documents are written that then sort of retroactively
confirm elements of that that speaks to their credibility. What did you
SIPHER: It does. There`s still you know, difficult things here and any
raw intelligence report is reporting what a source says. And the national
intelligence reporting is you know, vetting and validating those sources as
best they can. What we`re doing in the intelligence community is
(INAUDIBLE) collectors, you know, connect the dots.
What we do is we take source reporting, we put it together as best we can,
we usually put out how reliable we think that source is, was that
information first or secondhand access? And then that information goes
together with a variety of other information to analysts who then connect
the dots and try to look at that across. So you know, in the intelligence
community, in the investigative community, what they would be doing is
looking at the dossier sort of as a framework and then trying to test and
validate each of those pieces, ask follow up questions and continue to look
at it. What you as journalist, what`s difficult is you have to have two or
three different people validating these sources. If this was an
intelligence operation in a foreign country, you`re never going to get
that. Whereas in an intelligence organization would do was continue to
sort of push, challenge, ask new questions and go back to the sources.
HAYES: So, one of the things about the dossier, there`s two aspects of it
that I think have made it hard for people to swallow or it raises some
natural skepticism. One is the sort of most salacious details which just
seems bizarre. But the broader thing is just the scope of the conspiracy,
frankly. The scope of the activity it describes, right? Not that there
were sort of coincidental interests that manage to marry to each other at
this moment in time, but rather a long term sustained, plotted out strategy
of penetration and cooptation by the Russians of the Trump family and org
well before he ran for President. How credible do you find that?
SIPHER: Well, the one thing that is very credible of the report is Russian
methods. When I read the report having served at Moscow and worked on
Russia issues for much of my career with other colleagues, that part of it
which looks strange to most observers is the part that looks real to us,
collecting, compromising information. Collecting information on people
trying to develop conspiratorial relationships of people that can perhaps
be used later, perhaps not. That part of it is real. The other part that
is certainly real is the Russians` you know, intention in a number of
different ways, using cyber, using human and using disinformation and
deceptions to attack the U.S. system. That part of it is clear.
The parts related to the Trump family, we would have to look at those and
try to put them together as what had happened since that time. And there
are a number of things that fit. You were talking earlier about the June
meeting. And I understand that interest and focus on that. But if you
look at the narrative of the Steele dossier, Don Junior does not play an
important part in that. However, that e-mail, if you believe that as an
intelligence operation, and do I, that e-mail would be something to test
the waters to see if the Trump campaign would be interested in that. And
then that meeting wouldn`t be so important as what happens in that meeting,
is that the fact that the Trump family, the three important people in that
meeting did not report to the FBI. And that would be a signal to the
Russians to move forward.
You got to remember, this is a hostile environment for the Russian
intelligence. They can`t just show up at that meeting with the goods and
hope that the Trumps did not turn that into the FBI or security.
HAYES: All right, John Sipher, thanks for being with us.
SIPHER: Thank you, Chris.
HAYES: Ahead, Nancy Pelosi is now writing tweets for the President. New
fallout from the President`s sudden alliance with the Democrats in two-
HAYES: House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi took a victory lap this morning
the day after President Trump blindsided his own party leaders and agreed
with Congressional Democrats on the three-month debt ceiling in government
funding deal. And as some Republicans continued fuming today, the
President was feeling extolling the deal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We had a great meeting yesterday with Nancy Pelosi and Senator
Schumer. And it was a very bipartisan meeting. But I thought it was a
very, very friendly – it was a meeting that we all wanted to get together
and do something.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: According to Politico, Trump was particularly happy about the deal
because of the television coverage it was getting. “Trump specifically
mentioned the T.V. segments praising the deal and indicated he been
watching in a call with Senator Chuck Schumer. Today, the chumminess
continued when President Trump called the Democratic Leader this morning.
She asked him if he would compose a tweet for her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PELOSI: He called this morning. I said thanks for calling. This is what
we need – people really need a reassurance from you, Mr. President that
the six-month period is not a period of round-up but it`s just the DACA is
frozen and that these people will not be vulnerable. I was reporting to my
colleagues. I said this – I asked the President to do and boom, boom,
boom, the tweet appeared.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: The tweet appeared. Here`s the tweet, “For all those DACAthat are
concerned about your status during the six-month period, you have nothing
to worry about. No action.” Which we should note is misleading. First of
all, White House talking points urge the DACA recipients to “Prepare for
and arrange their departure from the U.S. and also, those who have DACA
protection that expires before that March 5th after reapplying the next
month may have to take action, just to be clear. Now, Democrats are asking
for more deals including a gentleman`s agreement yesterday to eliminate the
debt ceiling entirely. But again, the world is littered with the remains
of gentlemen`s agreements with Donald Trump. Michelle Goldberg writes
about the President as a Columnist at Slate and has joined the New York
Times Opinion Page as new Columnist and MSNBC Contributor Charlie Sikes,
Author of How the Right Lost Its Mind. What do you make of this?
MICHELLE GOLDBERG, SLATE COLUMNIST: I mean, I think that it was
fundamentally – it seems like fundamentally just an act of spite, right?
I don`t think it portends is any new era of triangulation or you know, a
kind of a new centrist period of the Trump Presidency. I think he was just
really mad at McConnell and Ryan and wanted to stick it to them wanted to
garner some momentary good press at the cost of creating much greater
liabilities for himself three months down the road, right? So I don`t
think that there`s going to be any new era of cooperation with Democrats.
But also, I know that some people on the left are uneasy about this because
they don`t want – obvious reasons, Democrats to be making deals with
Trump. I think it`s really important to point out also that it`s almost
misleading to call this a deal because there was no negotiation, there`s
no, concessions, it`s just Democrats said this is what we want and Trump
HAYES: Right. That`s a fair point. Charlie, I see lot of conservatives
freaking out about this, angry about it. We told you so, particularly
never Trumpers like yourself. But to flip it around, the fundamental
problem that Donald Trump has, is that he`s the kind of guy and Paul Ryan
who can`t keep his caucus together on must have votes. So of you can keep
your caucus together on must have votes, this is what is the drove John
Boehner into entire retirement. Why not just cut a deal with Chuck and
CHARLIE SYKES, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Well, yes, and you know, I agree with
Michelle by the way that – and I think it was Nicole Wallace who said,
look, Donald Trump doesn`t play chess, he plays whack a mole. And what you
had there was I think sort of an impulse. He got a chance to have a win on
the one hand and number two, he had a chance humiliate Paul Ryan and Mitch
McConnell. So what`s not the like for Donald Trump`s point of view? But
in terms of long term, you know, a long term of pivot. I mean, how many
times – I can`t believe the number pundit still talking about whether or
not this President is going to pivot. But there`s no question from the
point of view of Republicans and Conservatives, this was a big defeat and
it sets the stage for a lot more defeats. The question is, you know, how
will Nancy and Chuck use their new clout? How far will they push? How far
will the Democratic base allow them to go in enabling the Trump Presidency?
HAYES: One thing that I think my read on Trump was that part of his genius
in the primary. And I don`t only think that it was –
GOLDBERG: Right. It`s (INAUDIBLE)
HAYES: It was intuitive was to realize that Republican base didn`t care
about things that they (INAUDIBLE) said they cared about. Like big
government and deficits. That wasn`t this was all about. It was about
something much more (INAUDIBLE) and here I think he – what happen was he
got into office and started basically doing Ryanism. And now it`s just
like no, the whole point was they don`t even want that and care about that.
The base doesn`t care about –
GOLDBERG: Although the base does care about liberals here. And so I think
that that is where this is risky, right? The base doesn`t care about, you
know, tax cuts for corporations, but I think the base does care about the
wall, it cares about nativism, and it cares about making people like us,
And so they don`t want to see him, you know, kind of tack back to…
HAYES: Or make him feel good.
Well, so here`s the other side of that is you have got Steve Bannon on the
outside, right. And he is now saying he`s going to be sort of a wingman, a
partner for Trump, but he is also an ideological enforcer.
I want you to respond, Charlie, to what he said to Charlie Rose. Take a
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE BANNON, BREITBART: I think I`m street fighter.
By the way, I think that`s why Donald Trump and I get along so well.
Donald Trump is a fighter, a great counter puncher. Great counter puncher.
He`s a fighter.
I`m going to be his wing man outside for the entire time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: How do you interpret that?
CHARLIE SYKES, CONSERVATIVE RADIO HOST: Well, I take it at face value that
Steve Bannon is going to keep the base riled up. They`re going to keep the
red meat flowing. And he`s going to use his clout to put pressure on
particularly other Republicans here.
And, you know, by the way I agree with what Michelle had to say and what
you had to say about, look, the base is not really – they don`t get up in
the morning worried about tax cuts but they
do worry about things like immigration, which is why Nancy Pelosi, writing
tweets about DACA for
Donald Trump it is so interesting. And, Chris, I hope when we`re done with
the show you check on Ann Coulter to make sure she`s all right.
Imagine how that`s is playing with the Steve Bannon, Ann Coulter right
right now. Now, it`s good news for the dreamers, but you kind of wonder
where this is trending.
HAYES: Well, but – the other – two things here, one is that it was
perfect because he didn`t quite get it – like, it was not – it didn`t
grasp the details of what`s happening, what he himself did. So it was not
quite – right, it wasn`t going right.
But it`s also, like the idea, when I read that they had a gentlemen`s
agreement – to Charlie`s part between Chuck and the president, I thought
to myself if you enter a gentleman`s agreement with Donald Trump, you are
an idiot if you think that`s going to happen.
GOLDBERG: Right, but the thing is – but I don`t think that Democrats are
counting on him to uphold this. I think that in as much as they`ve made
this deal for this immediate piece of legislation, and they have this
gentlemen`s agreement that they certainly can`t count on but that meanwhile
drives a further wedge between Donald Trump and congressional Republicans.
You know, again, I think that Democrats can make a lot of demands of Trump
because they`re not expecting anything from him.
HAYES: It is really fascinating to watch politics when you just strip away
caring about any like policy. I mean, which has what has been sort of
remarkable watching this the whole time.
Michelle Goldberg and Charlie Sykes, thank you for your time
Ahead, Senator Bernie Sanders joins me here in studio to talk about the
president`s sudden interest in working with Democrats. What he thinks
HAYES: So, here`s what appeared to have happened yesterday. President
Trump, unmoored from any strong policy commitments other than a handful of
pet principles, seemed willing to double cross his own party and make deals
with Democrats. And the notion of President Trump working with Democrats
is here, and this new era, whether it`s short lived or not raises real
questions for Democrats. Do they risk selling out?
Former presidential candidate Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont joins me.
Nice to have you here in New York City
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, (I) VERMONT: It`s good to be with you.
HAYES: It`s been interesting to watch the reaction to this deal that was
cut yesterday. And I want to play you something that Congressman Luis
Gutierrez, who you served with in the House, said about the deal and get
your reaction to it. Because a lot of people were saying, wow this is
great, this is great. This is what he had to say. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. LUIS GUTIERREZ, (D) ILLINOIS: The Democratic caucus is not in sync
with making this agreement with the president of the United States of
America. I have spoken to dozen of members of the Democratic caucus. The
Democratic Party has to stand for something. When the CEO of Microsoft
says you have to come through him to get to the dreamers, and he`s to the
left of the Democratic Party, it`s a sad day for the Democratic Party in
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: What do you think of that?
SANDERS: What I think about is that what Trump did in removing 800,000
great young people from DACA protection is one of the ugliest things that
any president in the modern history of this country has ever done. And I
think we have got to be smart and we`ve got to win that fight.
And the key here is being smart. And that means attaching DACA legislation
to reverse what
Trump did to legislation that the Republicans need to have passed.
HAYES: Right. So Congressman Gutierrez`s point, right, and this is really
a tactical dispute. I don`t think there`s any goal difference here across
the Democratic caucus which wants to see these protections put into law,
right, is that play hard ball now when you have this as opposed to this
three-month extension. There`s to guarantee you`re going to be able to
attach it. Are you confident this is the right move?
SANDERS: Well, what we need to do. I mean, it is one thing to talk
fervently about the issues, but you know what on the Senate, we need 60
votes, OK. And if Luis can get us those 12 Republican votes tomorrow, I
think we`re ready to move.
Dick Durbin is working night and day on this. I think we have four or five
Republican votes right now. I think we stand an excellent chance…
HAYES: I see.
SANDERS: To get the votes we need. The goal is to win this thing.
HAYES: Right. Right. Right. Right. Well, that`s an interesting bit of
insight. Because sometimes it`s very hard to track these deals. I
remember there were deals that Boehner and Obama cut a few times where
everyone was mad and you couldn`t – and the White House would say, no, no
you don`t understand. We won.
SANDERS: But let me just say this. And I think I speak for every
Democratic caucus in the Senate and I think the House as well. What Trump
did is unspeakable. And we have to protect these young people and we
HAYES: OK. So, here`s the question, I remember talking to you right in
the beginning of this administration. And there was this question about
how are Democrats going to deal with this guy. And there are certain
things where there`s a kind of Vin diagram policy overlap: renegotiating
NAFTA or killing TPP, right, some stuff on infrastructure. And then there
is obviously places where there`s opposition.
The path he`s gone down from a policy perspective has been a very Paul Ryan
Republican Party path.
SANDERS: I would say it was a Koch brothers path – tax breaks for
billionaires, denying the reality of climate change, trying to destroy
public health care in America, throwing 32 million people off of heatlh
insurance, extreme right-wing agenda.
HAYES: OK. So then this thing happened yesterday that had people sort of
scratching their heads. Chuck Schumer has another meeting today with the
president. Are there is the sort of question like is there some deals to
work out here. And yet at the same time, you have got to be thinking to
yourself the world is littered with people on the wrong side of Donald
Trump deals. Right, like how are you thinking – is this someone that the
Democrats can do business with, is my question?
SANDERS: I think you look at issue by issue. You say to Donald Trump,
what did you with regard to DACA is unacceptable. Let`s work together to
reverse that. And if you`re prepared to do that, if you`re prepared to put
a trillion dollars into infrastructure without privatizing it, if you are
prepared to do what you said during the campaign is take on the drug
companies and lower the outrageously high cost of prescription drugs, if
you want to work with us on those issues let`s go forward together.
HAYES: I saw news – and I almost can`t believe this is happening. But I
saw news of a one last ditch attempt at Obamacare repeal. So, you have got
this ticking tock, right, which is the 50 vote majority the Republicans
expires in a few weeks, am I right about that.
This procedure is maddening to all of us. We don`t understand it. But
it`s going to expire. They`re going to take one more run at it. Are you
worried about this? Is this a serious thing that`s happening in the senate
SANDERS: No. I don`t think they have the time to get their act together.
I don`t believe that that is going to happen.
In fact, Lamar Alexander, the chairman of the health, education, and labor
committee has been holding a series of hearings on some aspects of health
care trying to work on a bipartisan way.
HAYES: All right, I want to ask you about, and I`ve read your responses to
of Hillary Clinton`s book. This is going to happen, you`re going to get
asked about this.
SANDERS: I`m shocked that you`re interested in this.
HAYES: Here is a portion that I thought got to something that sort of
interestingly deep and substantive, and continues in the party today. And
this is about the sort of – let`s call it the frontier of the possible,
the question of what a presidential candidate is selling their voters, and
what goals they`re setting in this sort of trade off between reality,
So, she says no matter how bold and progressive my policy proposals were,
Bernie would come out with something even bigger, loftier and leftier,
regardless of whether it was realistic or not.
And then Jake Sullivan has this analogy to There`s Something About Mary
where a deranged hitchhiker says he`s come up with a brilliant plan,
instead of the famous eight minute abs exercise routine he`s going to
market seven minute abs. It`s the same, just quicker.
SANDERS: I.E. Bernie Sanders just stole all of Hillary Clinton`s ideas.
Does anybody really believe that?
The truth is, and the real story is that the ideas we brought forth during
that campaign, which were so crazy and radical, have increasingly become
mainstream. I talked about a $15 an hour minimum wage. Hillary did not.
You know what, we got 31 co-sponsors on legislation for $15 an hour minimum
Talked about a trillion-dollar infrastructure. We talked about making
health care a right of all people through Medicare for all.
Medicare for all is becoming mainstream within the Democratic Party.
So many – making public colleges and universities tuition free. Talk to
the governor of the state of New York. He`s pretty proud of his
So, what I`m saying here, Chris, is many of the ideas that we talked about
that Secretary Clinton and others said, oh, those are too far out, they are
the ideas that are sweeping America that most Americans now support.
HAYES: All right, so one more follow up on this, which is this, of the
things we saw happen with Republicans is they told their voters they could
do all these things that they turned they couldn`t
really do. This happened all the time with – it happened during the
shutdown. They said we could repeal Obamacare even if we don`t have the
presidency. The couldn`t do that, right.
We saw what happened when their promises on the ACA ran into reality and it
was a disaster, right.
I guess the question is, is there some line for you, when you think about
what candidates in the Democratic Party are pushing, or – politicians, not
presidential candidates, where you feel like there`s a
responsibility to give a projection of what is possible?
SANDERS: That`s right. But you heard me, because I was on your show a
dozen times. What did I always talk about? I always talked about a
political revolution, right. I always talked about bringing millions of
people into the political process to transform politics in America. You
never heard me say, hey, elect me. I`m going to do it all.
We are right now on Wednesday going to introduce Medicare for all, single
payer program. Let me be very clear, that will not be passed if Trump is
president, and Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell run the United States
congress. The only way we will take on the drug companies and the
insurance companies and do what every other major country on Earth is doing
is through a political revolution where people stand up and fight back.
So everything that I said I brought forth ideas that I thought and believe
are reasonable ideas, not radical ideas. They exist in many parts of the
country – I`m talking about making public colleges and universities
tuition free. It exists in Germany. It exists in Scandinavia.
And what I have said is millions of people got to jump into the political
process, stand up and fight back. And we`re beginning to see some of that
HAYES: All right, Senator Bernie Sanders, good to have you here in person.
SANDERS: Good to be with you, Chris.
HAYES: Still to come, as Florida prepares for a hurricane wider than the
state itself, how do people in major cities get to safety? And why the
design of Miami makes it especially vulnerable.
And Thing One, Thing Two next.
HAYES: Thing One tonight, with a hurricane barreling down on Florida and
Mar-a-Lago, the Palm Beach estate and private golf club owned by the
president, the Trump organization is taking advance action. “Our teams at
the Trump properties in Florida are taking
all the proper precautions following local and Florida state advisories
very closely to ensure that everyone is kept safe and secure.”
And it only makes sense considering Mar-a-Lago has been down this road
In 2004, the estate was in the path of Hurricane`s Jean and Frances and in
2005 Hurricane Wilma.
When Wilma hit Florida, the worst of the bunch, Mar-a-Lago was spared and
significant damage. Yet somehow the president claimed otherwise and
managed to get a very significant return. That`s Thing Two in 60 seconds.
HAYES: After Hurricane Wilma hit Florida in 2005, Donald Trump cited some
of the work that needed to be done to Mar-a-Lago due to damage caused by
the storm, quote, “landscaping, roofing, walls, painting, leaks, artwork in
the – you know, the great tapestries, tiles, Spanish tiles, the beach, the
erosion. It`s still not what it was.”
And Trump claimed a $17 million insurance payday on his property.
But the Associated Press found little evidence of such large-scale damage.
And that Trump`s description of extensive damage does not match those of
Mar-a-Lago members and even Trump loyalists.
Take, for instance, the account from Donald Trump`s longtime former Butler
who made news last year after appearing to call for Barack Obama to be
He said, quote, “that house has never been seriously damaged. I was there
for all the hurricanes.”
It also makes you think if Mar-a-Lao had really suffered $17 million in
hurricane damage, would Trump have hosted nearly 400 guests at Mar-a-Lago
for the wedding of his son Donald Jr. just over two months later.
Two years after the storm, Trump seemed to have – he didn`t need all that
money for repairs. According to the AP, the real estate tycoon said he
didn`t know how much had been spent on repairs, but acknowledged he
pocketed some of the money.
Trump transferred funds into his personal account saying that under the
terms of this policy you didn`t have to reinvest it.
HAYES: When I speak to you tomorrow night I`ll be in the city of Miami to
report on the arrival of Hurricane Irma. It is a return to Miami for All
In where today the weather was pleasant with boats still bobbing placidly
in Biscayne Bay.
And last year, we traveled the city to report on the conditions that make
the city uniquely vulnerable to hurricanes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Less than 9 percent of Miami-Dade County is greater
than 10 feet
above sea level.
HAYES: Adding to the problem, most of South Florida is built on porous
limestone, which allows water to move around easily and seep up through the
ground. Flooding happens often here, and not just when it`s raining.
Seasonal high tides occur when the sun, Earth, and moon align leading to
flooding made worse
by sea level rise.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can see that every day when you go into Miami
beach, at least in October we will have four or five extreme flooding
events when the sky is clear, it`s just coming right up the sewer drains,
flooding from seal level rise. That`s a climactic impact that we`re seeing
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Miami-Dade county today expanded its mandatory evacuation order
ahead of Irma. Right now front of mind for Miami residents is getting out.
And it is not easy. As of this afternoon about a third of gas stations in
the Miami-Fort Lauderdale area were out of fuel. Drivers are facing long
lines at the stations that still have gas.
With maximum sustained winds of 175 miles per hour, Irma has already caused
heartbreaking devastation in the British Virgin Island of Tortola and
This was the aftermath of the storm on the island of St. Martin where four
people have been found dead. Local official says 60 percent of houses are
In St. Thomas, video showed the storm arriving with stunning force. And
even though it did not take a direct hit, three were killed in Puerto Rico
where more than a million people are reportedly now without electricity.
Tonight, Irma is battering Turks and Caicos, which is facing a 15 to 20
foot storm surge as videos from the island show trees barely staying
I`m joined now from Gainesville, Florida by Craig Fugate who has ran FEMA
under President Obama and before that coordinated Florida`s response to
multiple hurricanes as the state`s director for the emergency management
There`s a big mandatory evacuation through wide swaths of coastal Florida.
And I know that when we were covering Harvey in Houston there was real
concern about Rita and how bad and hard it was for people to get out. What
are the challenges in Florida for an evacuation of this size?
CRAIG FUGATE, FORMER FEMA ADMINISTRATOR: Just the sheer number of people
and the limited evacuation routes. That`s why we tell people you know
you`re evacuating from storm surge, move inland. You only need to go tens
of miles. But so many people will try to travel north on very limited
highways that part of the reason we have to start evacuating while the sun
is shining is to give people plenty of time to reach safe areas.
HAYES: One of the lessons I learned in reporting on Katrina was about how
much people`s actions were driven by their economic situation. A lot of
people just couldn`t go anywhere. They had no money. It was the end of
How much does that determine whether people can even get out, if they even
have a place to go?
FUGATE: Well, that`s why again the local counties and cities work hard
getting shelters open outside of the storm surge area using their public
transportation, getting people to call and get picked up and moved to a
safer location. So, even if you don`t have the money to go to a hotel or
motel, shelters are free, transportation is made available, counties
running hotlines and trying to get people to call in that need help.
Again, we don`t want to leave anybody behind. But we`re also telling
people, hey, when you evacuate take your pets.
Many of the public shelters now are pet friendly. A lot of hotels and
motels relax their policies during evacuations. So, it`s really important
that people evacuate. There are ways to get help if you need it, but you
need to get it now and not wait until it`s too late.
HAYES: That pet point is crucial, because I`ve seen a lot of research to
suggest that is one of the driving factors for why people don`t evacuate.
FUGATE: Right. And it`s a lesson we`ve learned. If you noticed during
Harvey and previous disasters, when rescue teams are going out, it used to
be we wouldn`t pick up the pets. Now the policy is we`ll get the pets as
long as they`re not dangerous.
So, we want people to evacuate with their pets. Across the state there are
listing on how to get
information about where pet friendly shelters are. Hotels and motels that
are taking pets. But the key thing is a lot of reasons people come up with
not to evacuate are not worth their life. This is the key message, not to
evacuate because you and your family have potentially a life threatening
situation. And that`s why we`re doing everything we can, that`s why I
wanted to be here to communicate on behalf of the entire team it is not
something that you can take the luxury of waiting for another forecast when
you`re in the evacuation zone, orders are given, time to go. If you need
help, call for it. Don`t wait until it`s too late.
HAYES: The current track – and we see a convergence between the two main
models, the European and the American model, really do have a kind of worst
case scenario. What are you thinking as someone who has been through
Florida hurricanes as you`re looking at this storm track?
FUGATE: We`ve exercised similar events. You can go back to the great
Miami hurricane and get an idea of what this kind of a storm is going the
do. And that`s why, again, we want people to focus less on the track, more
on the forecasted impacts. This is a very large storm and you need to heed
those evacuation orders, and that`s going to continue to increase as more
areas go under those orders throughout the day tomorrow.
So the track is one thing, but what really want people to do now is focus
on – if you`re in the evacuation zone, move to higher ground. Don`t wait
for another update in the forecast.
HAYES: There is not a lot of high ground in Miami-Dade. I mean, my sense
is that a huge part of Miami-Dade is going to be both evacuated and
probably not habitable if this storm actually continues the way it`s going.
FUGATE: Well, let`s look at the maps before we make very broad inaccurate
statements. The counties and the state have done a good job of mapping the
most deadly areas to get out of. It doesn`t mean areas don`t get wet, but
we try to evacuate where people are most likely to be at risk. And that`s
why we used the zones. And it`s very – you have got to be very careful
here when you talk generals, because these are very specific general
evacuation zones that we need to get people out of.
HAYES: That`s the evacuation zone map right there for Miami-Dad what`s
been ordered. Former FEMA administrator Craig Fugate, thanks so much for
bringing us your expertise. And I really appreciate it. Best of luck.
That is All In for this evening.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
Copy: Content and programming copyright 2017 MSNBC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
Copyright 2017 ASC Services II Media, LLC. All materials herein are
protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced,
distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the
prior written permission of ASC Services II Media, LLC. You may not alter
or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the