All in with Chris Hayes, Transcript 1/19/2017

Tammy Baldwin; Chris Murphy; Mo Brooks, Sherrod Brown, Matt MacKoviak, Howard Dean, Maria Teresa Kumar

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HARDBALL HOST: – good. So, beginning tomorrow at
noon, I intend to keep asking the tough questions, keep burrowing in to get
real answers trying my darnest to get some truth from power. And that`s
HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us. “ALL IN” with Chris Hayes
starts right now.


the world their talking about it.

HAYES: Hours from now, Trump becomes President, and assumes all the duties
of that office.

TRUMP: We have nuclear capabilities.

HAYES: Tonight, new reporting on Trump`s plans to overhaul the government
with Senators Chris Murphy and Tammy Baldwin. Then, exactly who will be
running the government tomorrow?

TRUMP: We have by far the highest I.Q. of any cabinet ever assembled.

HAYES: New reports that a chaotic transition is way behind on hiring.
Plus, Senator Sherrod Brown is here after grilling Trump`s treasury nominee

Mnuchin – I`m sorry, I`m pretty surprised you don`t know these things.

HAYES: And Rick Perry learns about his government.

RICK PERRY, AMERICAN POLITICIAN: After being briefed on so many of the
vital functions of the Department of Energy, I regret recommending its

HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.

Good evening from Washington, D.C., I`m Chris Hayes. In 16 hours, around
noon tomorrow, just a few miles from here, Donald Trump will be sworn in as
the President of the United States of America. Just hours after having
received a briefing that only 11 other Americans have ever gotten, on how
to launch a nuclear weapon and potentially start a nuclear war. This was
the scene tonight, Trump at the inauguration concert at the Lincoln
Memorial where he took in performances from among others Lee Greenwood,
Toby Keith, Three Doors Down and an act known as The Piano Guys who did a
cover of a One Direction song on an open piano then performed a strong for
the Trump faithful called “It`s Going To Be OK.” When all the singing was
over, it was the President-elect`s turn to address his supporters.


TRUMP: I`m the messenger. I`m just the messenger. And we were tired.
And I love you. Believe me, I love you. We all got tired of seeing what
was happening. And we wanted change but we wanted real change. And I look
so forward to tomorrow. We`re going to see something that is going to be
so amazing.


HAYES: Trump also addressed the concert itself and the performers.


TRUMP: I`d like to congratulate our incredible entertainers tonight. Toby
and Lee Greenwood and all of the great talent, it was really very special.
This started out tonight being a small little concert, and then we had the
idea maybe we`ll do it in the front of the Lincoln Memorial. I don`t know
if it`s ever been done before, but if it has, very seldom. We didn`t have
anybody who would even come tonight, this hasn`t been done before.


HAYES: Point of fact, it has been done before, actually, by the last guy.
Eight years ago President Obama held his inauguration concert, quite
famously in that very same place, the Lincoln Memorial. Beyonce was there,
Bruce Springsteen, U2. There is virtually no president for a transition
between two presidents who are more diametrically opposed in personality,
disposition and background, but perhaps the most consequential difference
is on policy. We are about to see massive shift in how the federal
government operates and who it helps and who it hurts.

Los Angeles Times (AUDIO GAP) today that Trump will move quickly to clamp
down (AUDIO GAP) raids and more people singled out for deportation. (AUDIO
GAP) is preparing from (AUDIO GAP) large (AUDIO GAP) including proposing
major reductions from the Department of Commerce and Energy, the
privatization of the corporation for public broadcasting, the elimination
of the National Endowment for the Arts and National Endowment for
Humanities. Overall, the (INAUDIBLE) reports the blueprint being used by
Trump`s team would reduce federal spending by $10.5 trillion over 10 years.

As Kevin Drum notes, the Trump team`s proposed budget hues closely to a
recent heritage foundation report which takes a meat axe to everything
other than defense, including, crucially, Social Security, Medicare and
Medicaid. Cutting Social Security and Medicare has long been a goal for
House Speaker Paul Ryan, and while Trump has vowed not to cut those
programs, he said today, he`s ready to sign what Ryan sends his way.


TRUMP: I love Paul, I don`t know if Paul is here. He`s out writing
legislation, because he`s got so much legislation to write. He`s never had
it so good. And he`s actually got somebody that`s going to sign it.


HAYES: That`s on the spending side. Then there`s taxes. There is perhaps
no issue on which there is more consensus among republicans, including
Trump that cutting taxes for the wealthy, despite of course the massive
increase in income inequality we`ve seen over the past 40 years. And
something Trump made clear when he was caught on camera a week after being
elected shaking hands at an expensive Manhattan steak house.


TRUMP: Have a good meal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How is our President-elect?

TRUMP: Thank you. Thank you. We`ll get your taxes down, don`t worry.



HAYES: As republicans figure out how to reshape the country, democrats are
searching for the best path of resistance. Most recent model is the GOP
approach eight years ago, worked out at a dinner as Frontline reports the
night President Obama was inaugurated.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three hours some of the brightest minds in the
Republican Party debated how to be relevant.

point I made was that we had to be prepared in the tradition of Wooden at
UCLA to run a full court press, and we had to see how Obama behaved and to
offer an alternative to what he wanted to do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The republicans agreed on a tough new strategy. To
block the President, fight his agenda.

GINGRICH: And he could be defeated partly by his own ideology and by his
own behaviors.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The feeling was that if that group could cooperate and
if that group could lead, that the wilderness might not be a generation


HAYES: Joining me now to discuss the GOP agenda and the democrats` own
(INAUDIBLE), Senator Tammy Baldwin democrat of Wisconsin; Senator Chris
Murphy, Democrat of Connecticut. It`s good to have you both here. Nice to
see you in person. Usually, we`re talking over satellites.


HAYES: You are both - you are both senators who are what we call in cycle,
which means you will be up in 2018, it will be your first re-election for
both of you, so that`s a - you know, that`s a big deal. I presume you guys
want to stay senators.


HAYES: Yes. So, well - and it`s sort of interesting because like, you
know, when you think about the politics of the moment and what it cashes
out to is folks like yourself and how you`re going to think about, how you
represent your constituents in this environment are you - are democrats
going to have a dinner like that dinner that the republicans had where you
all get together and figure out how to block what`s coming down the pike?

BALDWIN: Are we going to have a dinner like that?

MURPHY: I don`t know, we can go out to dinner later tonight. I mean - I
mean, really, we don`t have to have a dinner because he`s making this so
easy. I mean, the country very clearly is going to unite around the idea
that you shouldn`t throw out healthcare for 20 million Americans without a
replacement. There is no public support out there for the privatization of
Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. And so, you know, this doesn`t
have to be a fairly complicated internal strategy, he just seems to be
landing on the wrong side of public opinion on almost everything.

HAYES: Here`s the - yes, please.

BALDWIN: And I think about when I ran for senate in 2012, the people sent
me here to stand up to powerful interests and fight for Wisconsin`s working
class, help them get ahead – they`re struggling. And I think moving
forward, you know, to the extent that Trump came to Wisconsin and promised
working people things like getting rid of unfair trade deals and buy
America policies, et cetera, we need to hold him accountable to those words
and when he`s going to do things that harm the working people of my state,
we resist with every ounce of our energy.

HAYES: What does that mean? I mean, one of the things that happened, I
mean, so right now this Hill - this Hill article today was interesting to
me because I think the ACA fight has taken front and center, because they
moved on that first. And of course, they`re going to move that through a
budget. It`s funny now we`re passing budgets again, we haven`t done that
in a while. It`s been hard to get a normal budget process, but they`re
going to move that through reconciliation. It`s going to mean that they
could - they don`t need that – to clear that filibuster threshold of 60.
What can you do, I mean, practically, like as a senator? Can you slow
things down? Can you - do you think you can win over three of your

BALDWIN: Well, first of all, as we did last weekend, engaging the people,
finding their voice, telling their own stories. I had – there were
several rallies across the State of Wisconsin, but I attended one where
person after person, shared what this would mean to them, the harm that
would cause. It will cause in some cases death, in other cases
bankruptcies, like we used to see with regularity prior to the passage of
these health reforms, and it will impact every American. So, part of it is
engaging the people on this, but while –

HAYES: But those engagements have to turn into votes at some point.

BALDWIN: Absolutely.

HAYES: I mean, unless Ron Johnson hears those folks, your colleague in
Wisconsin who just was re-elected, unless he hears those votes and thinks,
you know what, I don`t want to vote for this ACA bill.

BALDWIN: Yes. But - so, there`s a couple of things, and I suspect that
Chris shares my experience of republicans in the senate so quietly to us
saying, you know, this isn`t quite working out the way we thought, and we
are hearing from our constituents and they are nervous. We need to make
sure because they can repeal it with a simple majority through the
reconciliation process. They can`t replace it with just 51 votes.

HAYES: That`s right.

MURPHY: And Trump is - Trump is screwing this thing up for them because he
continues to say that you can`t repeal it without an immediate replacement.
Guess what, they cannot do that. They do not have the votes to pass a
replacement so they are creating –

HAYES: This is a crucial point. They can`t do the replacement through
reconciliation. They can do the repeal through reconciliation, but a
replacement, they`re going to need - they need democrat votes.

MURPHY: They need democratic votes and frankly, even if they only needed
republican votes, they couldn`t find the votes to pass a replacement, so
they are setting up expectations for themselves that they cannot meet. And
then there are things that they can`t do through reconciliation, some of
the privatization of Medicare, Social Security, you can`t do that through
reconciliation. They still need democratic votes, so there still is the
ability to resist. And even when they need 50 they`ve set these
expectations that they simply can`t find a way to get to. So this is going
to be hard.

HAYES: What do you - what do you say to people – and I want to talk
about, you know, people have been – there`s sort of a discussion happened,
people look at the approval ratings and they say these are historically low
and, you know, even if these polls are off 5 or 10 points they`re still
historically low. Right? Even if you give him the benefit of the doubt,
he`s 38, 39, 37, Barack Obama was at 65 somewhere on that. But then there
are people who say, “Well, it didn`t matter in the election, the guy got
elected anyway,” gravity doesn`t matter. How much does public opinion
matter? How much does it matter, do you think?

BALDWIN: You know, certainly, he has rough numbers going into inauguration
day. I think it`s really clear from those that he has got to do a lot to
earn the trust of the American people and it is going to matter, you know,
I hear from people as I travel the State of Wisconsin who voted for
Hillary, voted for Trump, who voted for Gary Johnson. I think he has a
very short time period to make it clear whether he`s going to follow
through on the promises he made to working people who in the end gave him
the edge in my state. I think it`s a very short time period. And when
they get –

MURPHY: To deliver for those voters.

BALDWIN: Absolutely. To - and the early indicators with his nominees for
cabinet posts, he said he was going to drain the swamp.



BALDWIN: Excuse me, these are the powerful, the billionaires, the bankers,
et cetera, that he`s populating his cabinet with. I think people are
troubled already.

MURPHY: Hey listen, he`s made a very clear claim that only he can fix
what`s wrong in your life. Right? Obama`s metric was, is Washington
different? Did I change the culture? Right? So republicans kind of
controlled that because if they didn`t work with him, then Obama was a
failure. Trump says, no, I`m going to palpably and tangibly change your
life. People are going to be able to figure out at the end of two years
whether their life is better and whether what he said is true. So if he
doesn`t deliver on it and nothing he`s proposing is going to actually make
those people`s lives different, than that approval rating which is low
today is much more dangerous for him two years from now.

HAYES: And do you think it`s dangerous for the other people in his party?
I mean, because Donald Trump has a different political calculus, but the
folks that you work with in your - in your body, your colleagues as they`re
thinking about what they`re going to support - not going to support,
they`re thinking about, you know, what their voters and their constituents

MURPHY: And back when this party, the Republican Party was a trickle-down
party, you know, they were losing seats left and right in the house and
senate. I think people think that this is a different Republican Party
now. So, when they figure out that it`s the same old party, then, yes, in
the midterms, I think a lot of their members are going to be in trouble.

BALDWIN: You know, the republican establishment owns Washington now.

HAYES: They do.

BALDWIN: The presidency and both houses of congress –

HAYES: Can`t blame it on you.

MURPHY: They`ll try.

BALDWIN: I was going to say. And republicans in the senate will own this
cabinet and so - yes, there`s no escaping this.

HAYES: Yes, they`re going to - they`re going to blame it – the press is
now the new enemy. I think it`s going to be what`s happening. Senator
Tammy Baldwin, Senator Chris Murphy, great to have you here in person.
Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

MURPHY: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

HAYES: I have less than a day until Trump is sworn in. There`s a
staggering number of positions yet to be filled in his administration
including key appointments to the National Security Council, the chaotic
transition after this two-minute break.


HAYES: Last night, Donald Trump picked former Georgia Governor Sonny
Purdue to be Secretary of Agriculture, filling the last open spot in his
new cabinet. Among the people he`s chosen for the 15 traditional cabinet
positions, all but two are men, all but two are white, for the first time
since 1988, not a single member of the cabinet is Hispanic. Trump is on
track to have at most just three of his nominees confirmed tomorrow, his
first day in office, James Mattis, as Secretary of Defense; John Kelly,
Secretary of Homeland Security; and possibly Mike Pompeo as CIA Director.
And that`s compared to seven for both President Obama and George W. Bush.

But the cabinet is only the tip of the proverbial federal bureaucracy
iceberg. There are about 4,000 positions for political appointees. Of
those, 690 are identified as crucial senate-confirmed post by the non-
partisan partnership for public service. Trump has announced his picks for
just 30 of them. Meaning 96 percent of those key offices won`t even have a
nominee when he takes over the government according to Stephen Hess, an
expert on transitions, the Brookings Institution quote, “It`s just - there
is no other word for it, weird, for those of us who have been involved in
government for decades.”

Observers are most concerned about the vacancies on National Security
Council which could severely hamper the Trump administration`s response to
a crisis. POLITICO reports that most of the NSC`s key policy jobs are
still open, including Senior Directors handling such regions and issues as
the Middle East, Russia, Afghanistan, economic sanctions and nuclear

Several different factors have contributed to the slowdown including
multiple staff shakeups and before November 8th, the widespread expectation
even among the Trump folks that Trump would not win. But it also appears
at least in part to be political. According to The Washington Post Josh
Rogin, James Mattis requested that almost two dozen Obama appointees be
allowed to stay on because he did not want the Pentagon to be caught flat
footed in the case of an early emergency. The transition team reportedly
pushed back allowing Mattis to retain only a half dozen top officials. I`m
joined by Congressman Mo Brooks, republican from Alabama who serves on the
House Armed Services Committee. Congressman, are you concerned about the
vacancies particularly on the National Security Council, regional directors
there if there`s a North Korea ICBM, if there`s some kind of an emergency
starting at 4:00 p.m. tomorrow, does it concern you that there aren`t the
folks there tasked with monitoring that?

comfortable that the people that we have serving America both in the
Intelligence Agencies and in National Defense, Pentagon oriented, they are
on watch and they are - they are to protect America`s security and they
will be able to do so throughout this transition phase from the Obama
administration to the Trump administration.

HAYES: Right, but I mean, it`s not the transition tomorrow, right?
Because it`s - as of tomorrow, it is the Trump administration. If you`ve
got the National Security Council unstaffed. I mean, I think you and I
would agree that the National Security Council is pretty important, right?

BROOKS: Well, the National Security council is pretty important, but it`s
more important to get the right people in the right positions, and to do so
in a deliberative way, if that`s what is required than it is to rush and
get the wrong people in those positions. So I think Donald Trump and his
administration is being very deliberate in making sure that they get the
right people in the right places even if it takes more time than it might

HAYES: And you think even if in the case of say, General Mattis asking for
folks to stay on – even if it means getting rid of people so there are
empty desks in the Pentagon because those folks may have been appointed by
the previous President?

BROOKS: I`m quite comfortable with our new Secretary of Defense will be
able to handle the circumstances as they are presented. And again, I have
not seen anything that suggests National Security is at risk because of the
way this transition is unfolding.
HAYES: I want to ask you about an interesting quote I thought in POLITICO
about Trent Lott, a former republican senator, of course. A lobbyist close
to several people on the transition said the transition team was relying on
lobbyists and others for lists of potential hires and policy
recommendations. Do you think it`s a good idea to rely on lobbyists to
tell you who to hire?

BROOKS: I think Donald Trump and the transition team ought to be relying
on as many people as they can in order to have the largest pool of
applicants for the positions that need to be filled. That`s the way that
you get the person that you need to do the task that is required.

HAYES: Right. But lobbyist -

BROOKS: So it`s one thing to have an expansive list. It`s another thing
if you start picking people because of special interest influence. That
influence being contrary to the interest of the United States of America,
so let`s wait and see who`s appointed, who`s filling these positions before
we start criticizing who might be in a rather large list that`s going to be
culled down to one for each position.

HAYES: I mean Trent Lott said did say relying and I would also just ask if
you think it`s consonant with the general theme of the Trump campaign which
was I think, and bracingly so, and many people cottoned to this, talking
about the power of lobbyists, how bad they were and the power of special