All In With Chris Hayes, Transcript 9/23/2016

Guests:
Jennifer Roberts, Hugh Evans, Lars Ulrich, Josh Barro, Betsy Woodruff
Transcript:

Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES
Date: September 23, 2016
Guest: Jennifer Roberts, Hugh Evans, Lars Ulrich, Josh Barro, Betsy
Woodruff

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: That`s HARD BALL for now and “ALL IN WITH CHRIS
HAYES” starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST(voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t shoot him. Don`t shoot him.

HAYES: Cell phone video of Keith Scott`s fatal encounter with police
released by his wife today.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you shoot him? Did you shoot him?

HAYES: Charlotte braces for reaction as community leaders demand to see
the police dash cam footage.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was adamant I`m not going to put out one piece of
evidence that could further inflame and not tell the full story.

HAYES: The latest from the streets of Charlotte and the discussion
happening across America of race and policing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Referred to him as sir, do not raise your voice, do not
talk back.

HAYES: Then, three days until the first presidential debate, both sides
work to lower expectations. Plus a stunning reversal.

SENATOR TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: I am not in the habit of supporting people
who attack my wife and attack my father.

HAYES: Ted Cruz announcing he`s no longer never Trump. When ALL IN starts
right now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. Today the wife of
the man shot and killed by Charlotte police released her own cell phone
video of the incident which we`ll show you in a moment.

Right now, we`re monitoring live pictures of Charlotte on this the fourth
night after the shooting death of Keith Scott, which has spun protests and
a state of emergency declared by the governor, including the National
Guard.

The video we`re about to show you taken by (inaudible) Scott, Keith Scott`s
wife is disturbing. While you`ll hear gunshots, you will not see anyone
shot.

We also note we do not know what happened prior to the video. However, Ms.
Scott told NBC News through her lawyer that she went inside her apartment
complex to get her cell phone charger and when she came out, the incident
had started.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t shoot him, don`t shoot him. He has no weapon.
He has no weapon. Don`t shoot him. Don`t shoot him. Don`t shoot him. He
didn`t do anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the gun! Drop the gun!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He doesn`t have a gun. He has a TBI. He`s not going
to do anything to you guys. He just took his medicine.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the gun!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Keith, don`t let them break the windows, come on out
of the car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the gun!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Keith, don`t do it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the gun.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Keith, get out of the car. Keith, Keith, don`t you
do it, don`t you do it. Keith! Keith! Keith! Don`t you do it! Did you
shoot him? Did you shoot him? Did you shoot him? He better not be
(inaudible) dead. He better not be (inaudible) dead, I know that much. I
know that much, he better not be dead. I`m not coming near you, I`m going
to record, though.

He better be alive. You better be alive. Yes. We`re over here at 9453
Lexington Court. These are the police officers that shot my husband and he
better live. He better live because he didn`t do nothing to them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HAYES: One of the main point of contention is whether or not Keith Scott
was in possession of a gun. We still don`t know. Police say he did have a
gun. The gun was recovered. We cannot from this video. Clearly, we hear
his wife say he did not have a gun and the police say drop the gun.

There is one officer that appears to drop a glove and another officer picks
up that object. There`s another video that shows another dark object on
the ground, but it is not clear what it is.

The police have still refused to release the police videos of the incident.
They will no longer be making case updates since the case has been
officially turned over to the State Bureau of Investigation.

In today`s press conference, he acknowledged the intense interest in the
video evidence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KERR PUTNEY, CHARLOTTE POLICE CHIEF: I know the expectation that video
footage can be the panacea, and I can tell you that is not quite the case.
There are a lot of other factors that have to support and corroborate even
what you might visually see.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: The family of Keith Scott viewed the police video yesterday and
it`s worth repeating that afterward the family made a statement through
their lawyers which reads in part, “It is impossible to discern from the
videos what, if anything, Mr. Scott is holding in his hands. When he was
shot and killed, Mr. Scott`s hands were by his side and he was slowly
walking backwards.”

Today Hillary Clinton tweeted “Charlotte should release police video of the
Keith Lamont Scott shooting without delay. The Clinton campaign has since
announced that Clinton will travel to Charlotte on Sunday.

We`ll speak with the mayor of Charlotte in a moment. But first I`m joined
by MSNBC national reporter, Trymaine Lee. And Trymaine, how has this new
video affected people`s feelings about what happened there in Charlotte?

TRYMAINE LEE, MSNBC NATIONAL REPORTER: Thanks, Chris. In so many ways
this dramatic, chilling video is kind of seeding the frustration and anger
that folks already had around this case. Not only with the death of Mr.
Scott, but that, you know, not knowing exactly what happened, was there a
gun, wasn`t there a gun?

We heard those initial narrative about perhaps Mr. Scott had a book, and
then it was a gun. Then we saw still images that purported to be a gun by
his feet. Now we have this video released by the family.

Folks were already upset in that vacuum of transparency demanding that the
city, the police chief release the video from the police dash cam video or
the body cam. They said so far they will not be doing that.

Now after the family viewed that video and their lawyer came out and said
that he seemed to be – Mr. Scott seemed to be dazed and stepping
backwards. Now we have this new video.

And that anguish, that pain that certainly will play as the sound track for
tonight`s protest already here in what had been the epicentre of protests,
we already see National Guardsmen gathering.

Groups of individuals who we presume to be protesters are already starting
to mill about. Still quiet, still very early. But last night, which was
largely peaceful, besides a little flare-up over on the interstate where
protesters kind of faced off momentarily with police.

Besides that, it was very peaceful, but this served as kind of the main
center for the marches. March down this block all the way around back
towards Bank of America Stadium.

Again, so far, Chris, it`s relatively quiet. We know how quickly things
can change especially with this curfew in place. Will police draw a line?

Will they play it how they did last night allowing protesters free rein
until they got to the highway, where they locked it down, firing rubber
bullets, pepper balls, overtook that highway once again. Again Chris, here
quiet so far. But again things change.

HAYES: All right, Trymaine Lee, thank you very much obviously we are going
to keep our eyes on the situation there.

Joining me now the mayor of Charlotte, Jennifer Roberts. Mayor, what is
your view particularly after the video today about the police video and
whether it should be released and when?

MAYOR JENNIFER ROBERTS (D), CHARLOTTE: Well, we do have a couple of videos
that the police have. However, the State Bureau of Investigation has now
taken over that investigation. And I have actually asked them to use all
possible resources to complete that investigation as soon as possible and
release all the information to the public as soon as possible.

I have seen the two police videos, and they are inconclusive as the wife`s
video is. And I just want to say, you know, our thoughts and prayers are
with the Scott family. It`s a very difficult time for all of us.

HAYES: Take me through your reaction watching Ms. Scott`s video. It`s
very upsetting video for a number of reasons. What was your reaction when
you saw it?

ROBERTS: It`s a painful scene, it`s a very difficult scene. And I just
again our thoughts are with the Scott family. I know how hard this must be
when they have this played out in such a public way.

And I do hope that the information, that the investigation is concluded,
that the total picture of information that the state bureau has is released
as soon as possible.

The uncertainty of the lack of conclusion – of a conclusive story or
picture of all that happened is really difficult for the city of charlotte
right now.

HAYES: Isn`t there an argument, Mayor, I`ve been sort of talking to some
folks down there and I`ve been watching reaction on social media. And
obviously there`s a pretty big trust deficit here, there`s a pretty big
trust gap.

I think it`s fair to say there`s some significant portion of the community
that doesn`t feel they can take the Charlotte police at their word.

Given that the videos themselves are inconclusive according to the attorney
fort family, isn`t there a strong transparency case to have them out there
for that reason so it doesn`t look like anyone`s hiding anything?

ROBERTS: I have asked to have that released. And I understand that it is
not a complete picture, and that is why I`m also urged the state to
complete its investigation as soon as possible. A lot of people are
waiting. It is hard to have to wait. It is hard to see so many different
views about something we don`t have the full story on.

HAYES: Mayor, what do you think your role is right now for this city?
This has obviously been a very intense and difficult time for a lot of
residents of your city over the last few days. Obviously, primarily the
Scott family, which lost someone. Also the family that lost someone on the
second night of protests. What do you see, what should you do as the
mayor?

ROBERTS: Well, the main thing I have been talking about every day is that
we want peaceful protests. I`m asking for calm. I`m asking for people to
voice their views and their opinions and their concerns, but to do it
peacefully.

We know that violence does not advance the issue. People do not listen
when there`s violence. We can sit down together. I want to applaud all
the folks in the community who are really working to be peaceful.

We have ministers out there, we have a hundred black men out there tonight,
that organization, we have individuals who are trying to be buffers and
tell folks, please be peaceful, let`s talk this out.

I want to appreciate our officers who have done quite a bit of community
policing to try to build that trust in our community. Many of them know
folks here and they`ve had good conversations. I had some conversations
with some demonstrators on the way here in front of the police
headquarters.

And we talked about how hard it is, how hard it is on mothers who are
concerned about their children not being treated equally, about their
children being susceptible to violence, and we all want a better future for
everyone. We`re working very hard in the city of Charlotte.

HAYES: Has the response, the intensity of the grievance that has been made
manifest in the last few days, has it surprised you?

ROBERTS: I think that we are looking at what is going on in our country in
general, and we know that we have disparities. We know that not every
citizen is treated equally, for a number of reasons.

And we want, as a community, especially here in Charlotte, we have a long
tradition of being collaborative, of our faith leaders sitting down with
our business leaders and our neighborhood leaders and our civic leaders,
talking through some of these things.

There are so many issues to address. We have a task force right now
working on economic mobility and –

HAYES: But did this response surprise you?

ROBERTS: I`m sorry. The response to?

HAYES: To the shooting. I mean, just the intensity of protests and the
unrest that we`ve seen over the last few days.

ROBERTS: I`m surprised at the level of response. This does not feel like
the Charlotte that I grew up in. It does not feel like the city again as I
know that has been a very hospitable city where we have worked so hard to
build trust, to build community relations.

So it is – it`s painful. It`s very painful. And again, I want to thank
all the folks who are trying to change the narrative here, trying to bring
peace back to our city.

We are a can do city. We`re a city that has overcome some things in the
past in a collaborative way. I`m calling on people to do that again and to
show the world.

HAYES: All right, Mayor Roberts, I really appreciate you taking the time
tonight. Thank you very much.

ROBERTS: Thanks for having me.

HAYES: We will, of course, be keeping an eye on what`s happening in
Charlotte tonight throughout the hour. But first, how the new video from
Keith Scott`s wife provides a sobering window into the extreme level of
compliance expected from people of color in police encounters. We`ll
discuss that after this 2-minute break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: All right. We are now looking at live pictures at this moment of a
protest that is happening in Atlanta, Georgia, I believe, that has been
assembled by the NAACP in protest, of course, of the shooting of Keith
Lamont Scott.

I imagine also Terence Crutcher, which happened in Tulsa, Oklahoma. That
is a live picture right now in Atlanta. Of course, there`s a curfew in
effect in Charlotte. The National Guard out in force.

We just talked to my colleague, Trymaine Lee, and you can see the streets
are relatively empty. This is a helicopter view of Atlanta. That march
organized by the NAACP.

The disturbing video taken by Keith Lamont Scott`s wife showing the moment
her husband was killed by police in Charlotte provides a sobering window
into the high level of compliance that people of color feel they need to
maintain in their interactions with police.

She doesn`t seem to regard her husband as any real threat to police. As
officers urged Scott to drop a gun, she repeatedly insists he doesn`t have
one and you can still hear the escalating terror in her voice.

Hear fear ultimately justified that whatever Keith Lamont Scott was doing,
it was not sufficiently compliant to keep him from being killed. Here`s
part of the video before the fatal shots are fired.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t shoot him! Don`t shoot him! He didn`t do
anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the gun! Drop the gun!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He doesn`t have a gun. He has a TBI. He`s not going
to do anything to you guys. He just took his medicine.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the gun!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Keith, don`t let them break the windows. Come on out
the car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the gun.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Keith, don`t do it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the gun.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Keith, get out the car. Keith, Keith, don`t you do
it. Don`t you do it, Keith, Keith.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: We don`t know precisely what Keith Lamont Scott was doing before he
was killed by police but in the video you can hear her growing realization
that whatever he was doing, it was not compliant enough to keep the police
from shooting him.

Particularly for African-Americans, careful compliance can mean the
difference between life and death something illustrated yesterday when
Steve Harvey talked through the tips he gave his sons for how to interact
with police when they`re pulled over.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hands on the wheel 10 and 2. When he approaches your
car put your wrist on top of the wheel. Spread all of your fingers out and
don`t do nothing. If the man asks you to let the window down, show him
your finger and get that window down.

Get that hand back up on there all fingers spread apart 10 and 2 and put
your wrist on top of the steering wheel. Instruct him of every single
thing you have to do. If you got to reach in the back, the glove
compartment and you do it with the other hand.

So, sir, I`m going to reach in here, I`m going to use my left hand. You
let the glove compartment fall open, let them put their light in there,
then you give him the information. Always speak politely. Refer to him as
sir. Do not raise your voice, do not talk back. Submit to every single
thing he tells you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Submit to every single thing he tells you. That video got a lot of
reaction online. It was polarizing. Some applauding Steve Harvey for the
instructions he gave, others simply horrified by the instructions that one
feels necessary to give in this the freest land in all the earth, in 2016,
the United States of America.

In Charlotte, this is right now front and center as we look at that video
of Mr. Scott`s wife. It was compliance that was at the heart of her
concern. Right now in Charlotte, we are anticipating there may be more
protests this evening.

Again, there`s a curfew in that city under way right now, the National
Guard out in force. I believe we also have from Charlotte on the phone,
Wesley Lowery who is the national reporter for “The Washington Post.”
Wesley, are you there?

WESLEY LOWERY, “WASHINGTON POST” (via telephone): Yes, I`m here. Thanks
for having me, Chris.

HAYES: Yes, the thing that struck me so much about that video by MS. Scott
is her rising terror that what her husband was doing, whatever it was, was
not enough – she felt very clearly that her husband was not a threat and
was trying to communicate that. The police seem to be perceiving the
situation very, very differently than she was.

LOWERY: Certainly. I mean, it`s heart-breaking no matter what you think
of the shooting, you listen to the cries. You better not shoot him. Then
he better be alive. This idea that she`s trying to communicate to them.
Clearly she was saying that he did not have a gun.

The officers we can hear them screaming at him that perhaps he did have a
gun. But it certainly is, you know, every time we watch these videos, this
video here in Charlotte, whether it be the one in Falcon Heights with
Philando Castille.

When loved ones watch people they know and love get killed, it`s just heart
breaking.

HAYES: There`s this question of compliance. In the case of Philando
Castile, we believe he was complying, it might have been precipitated by a
police officer telling him to open the glove compartment.

We have other examples in which people have met the same fate when they
appear to be complying. Yet the way that the system tends to operate and
the way the police when you talk to them view that situation is they are
looking for things that trigger their perception of threat and that`s a
highly subjective judgment.

LOWERY: That`s completely subjective. You know, and we know that that`s
the legal standard in the United States of America. If the officer himself
perceived or feels threatened as opposed to what some other observer might
find threatening.

In this case, what was interesting and the question that remains is how
much was Keith Lamont Scott complying or was he not complying. We know he
got out of the vehicle. There was some level of complying. However his
wife can be heard on the tape yelling at him trying to give him
instructions.

HAYES: That`s right.

LOWERY: And that`s really what it comes down to here, right, did he get
out of the car voluntarily and what was he doing? That`s what this video
doesn`t show us and what we`ve been led to hear that the video once it`s
released will not show it.

It comes down to the difference between holding a gun in your hand or
potentially dropping it or potentially raising it. That`s something in a
split second or emotional tense moment we may look at the same thing and
see it differently.

HAYES: What was clear to me in her voice, that she feels that her husband
is not a threat and also a kind of rising fear in her voice that she can
sense that the police are not sensing that he`s not a threat, that his non-
threateningness is not being sufficiently communicated to them and that`s
why she appears to be sort of going back and forth between talking to
police and talking to her husband.

LOWERY: Exactly. This idea that she`s attempting to broker this almost,
that she`s scream kg instructions to her husband trying to get him to
listen to her voice at the same time trying to kind of almost de-escalate
these officers.

Try to yell to them and tell them, no, he`s not a threat. No, you don`t
need to shoot him. Don`t worry about – you know. And we`ve seen other
cases like this, this idea of a loved one trying to potentially be this
intermediary.

And it was also the question very often of, you know, is there space to
slow these situations down and potentially bring the wife over and have her
have a conversation. It`s remarkably complicated because, as we said, that
video is just heart breaking.

HAYES: I think that strikes everyone who listens to the video that she`s
kind of an outside part of this although clearly she knows the person at
issue best. There`s also just the fact that it has become instinctual to
grab the cell phone. I`m not going to come near you, but I am going to
record this. This has become ingrained in a large portion of the
population. Is that what your sort of reporting bears out?

LOWERY: Certainly. What we know is that for so many people that is the
immediate instinct. I`ve been in a car with friends and we`ve gotten
pulled over at times in the last year or two years, and I`ve had friends
that the first thing they do is grab their phone and start recording or ask
me.

One time I was riding in the passenger seat. Please record this. The idea
for so many people this is understood. These interactions with police have
always happened. Now is we`re seeing video of it.

Everything about a police involved shooting there are more of these fatal
shootings being captured on camera. There are just as many as there were
last year on the same pace almost 1,000 people fatally shot by police this
year. But more are being captured on camera. Almost as many shootings on
camera so far this year as we did in all of last year.

HAYES: All right, Wesley Lowery of “The Washington Post,” thanks for your
time. Appreciate it.

LOWERY: Anytime, Chris.

HAYES: Up next, the latest Trump rival to endorse the nominee just after
this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: It`s been a long and tumultuous relationship between Donald Trump
and Ted Cruz that started off more or less as allies during the Republican
primary. As Trump took the early lead in polls, Cruz stuck with the
strategy of drafting off of the front-runner waiting for the moment to make
his move.

Pressed on some of Trump`s offensive comments he`d respond with tweets like
this, “The establishment`s only hope Trump and me in a cage match. Sorry
to disappoint. Donald Trump is terrific. #dealwithit.”

Then something changed between the two men, namely Trump started slinging
mud on Twitter about Cruz`s wife, Heidi, including a mean comparing her
looks unfavourably to his own.

And later spreading preposterous rumors that Cruz`s father had connections
to Lee Harvey Oswald and the assassination of JFK. That put a bit of a
damper on the bromance ultimately culminating in Cruz`s epic non-
endorsement at the Republican convention.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CRUZ: I don`t get angry often, but you mess with my wife, you mess with my
kids, that will do it every time. Donald, you`re a snivelling coward and
leave Heidi the hell alone. This man is a compulsive liar.

Donald Trump is a serial philanderer and he boasts about it. If you love
our country and love your children as much as I know that you do, stand and
speak and vote your conscience. Vote for candidates up and down the ticket
who you trust to defend our freedom.

I am not in the habit of supporting people who attack my wife and attack my
father. That was not a blanket commitment that if you go and slander and
attack Heidi that I`m going to nonetheless come like a servile puppy dog
and say thank you very much for maligning my wife and maligning my father.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Well, arf, arf, Senator apparently having overcome his loyalty to
his wife and father. Today Cruz finally came out and endorsed Donald Trump
writing on Facebook, “If Clinton wins, we know with 100 percent certainty
that she would deliver on her left-wing promises with devastating results
for our country. My conscience tells me I must do whatever I can to stop
that.”

He`ll be on “Meet The Press” this Sunday to explain his reasoning. Trump
responded, “The endorsement today was a really gracious statement. I am
greatly honored by the endorsement of Senator Cruz. We have fought the
battle and he was a tough and brilliant opponent.”

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Lying ted, right? You know,
lying ted comes in with a bible held high. You know that, right? It`s
held high. He puts the bible down and then he starts lying all day long.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Cruz may have been hoping his reversal would fly under the radar.
He announced it on a Friday afternoon before the most anticipated event in
years, the first presidential debate between Donald Trump and Hillary
Clinton. Coming up, our preview of Monday`s battle for the ages.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: So earlier today I was on my way to Central Park, and on my
smartphone I was reading an interview in The New York Post with the drummer
from Metallica: Lars Ulrich. The headline said Lars Ulrich eats 20
pancakes a day. I`m never more than six feet away from a pancake at any
time, it`s the fuel to the drumming in Metallica.

They`re a special kind of pancake. They`re made with Stevia and non-fat
yogurt. They sound delicious.

When I got to Central Park, I walked up on to a sound stage on which
Metallica and Lars Ulrich
were doing their rehearsal and sound check. There he is banging away. Can
you see the red Solo cup? Behind that is a plate and on that plate you`ll
never guess what there were, the actual pancakes. Lars Ulrich was telling
the truth in The New York Post.

Now, why was I on stage with Metallica today? Well, because Metallica is
one of the bands
playing in New York City tomorrow at the global citizens festival, an
advocacy organization working to
end extreme poverty.

MSNBC is a partner in the event. We`re broadcasting it. And today, right
after the sountrack, I spoke with the founder and CEO of global citizen
Hugh Evans along with Lars Ulrich.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HAYES: Hugh, Lars, thank you for taking a little time. This is the fifth
year, right?

HUGH EVANS, FOUNDER, CEO, GLOBAL CITIZEN: This is the fifth year.

HAYES: What is the goal this year?

EVANS: We have a couple of goals. Firstly, we`re trying to ensure that
girls` education becomes a priority globally. So, next year, the goal is
to try to help the global partnership for education secure the $6 billion
it needs to ensure that the 62 million girls who are currently not educated
go to school.

We`re focused on water and sanitation.

So, we`re excited that there is going to be a huge announcement from the
prime minister of The Netherlands who is coming tomorrow night, which is
very exciting.

Thirdly, we`re focused on the issue of food security. So, we`re calling on
the Italian President Renzi to ensure that food security is on the agenda
for the upcoming G7 meeting. And we`re focused on gender equality and the
empowerment of girls and women. So, we`re trying to call on the Tanzanian
president to repeal the archaic marriage laws that enable kids, some as
young as 8, 9, 10 years old get married far too young.

HAYES: So, these are concrete demands, concrete asks. How did you get
involved? Why do you want to be a part of this?

LARS ULRICH, METALLICA DRUMMER: Hugh called us. And obviously this has
been on our radar for all the years it`s been going on. And each year
obviously reaches more and more people, and it`s high profile. And this
year we finally let ourselves out of the studio and Hugh reached out to our
manager just down the street. And we said we`re here to help and do
whatever we can.

And you know, being out in the bay area and being around those causes and
so on as we are out there, we do a lot in the Bay Area, and when we can in
the rest of the world we step up to try to help out.

HAYES: Do you think about how you sort of use the platform that you have
at this point in your career – you guys are obviously sort of in this
pantheon of groups. Well, you have. You have endured in a way…

ULRICH: I don`t know if that`s true.

HAYES: It`s true, though. It`s hard to stick around.

I saw that movie, and I know there were some rough times.

ULRICH: We do what we can. I mean, it`s that simple, obviously. As the
world gets smaller and communication spreads further and further out there,
you try to find the right balance.

HAYES: Can I ask you a question about the music industry, because…

ULRICH: I won`t be able to answer it.

HAYES: This was a huge – the sort of Napster moment was this huge moment.
Wehave seen the music industry go on sort of this fascinatingly crazy
direction since then. And I wonder how much you feel like the things you
thought would happen have come true and how much they haven`t?

ULRICH: I think you have to sort of accept that nobody really knows where
it`s going so there has to be a lot of impulsive kind of attitudes. So
it`s like a train that`s moving and you don`t quite know
where it`s going but you try to steer it in the best way you can realizing
that it may go in different places that you had no idea.

The music business, or what`s left of it, is obviously a very – it`s like
a wild west now. So, 15 years ago when you put out a record, there was a
typical way that did you everything.

HAYES: Yes. It was all very ordered.

ULRICH: Now it`s whatever works for you. We`re in the process of putting
a new record out this fall. We`re doing whatever we feel is right.
There`s no particular way that it should be.

HAYES: You know, there`s this graph of sort of income distribution over
the last 20, 30 years call the elephant graph. And it shows some great
stuff, right, that global poverty has been diminished.
it shows people the top made a lot of money and there`s this part of the
chart that goes down like this, which is basically the middle class in
first world.

And we`re seeing this play out right now across – whether it`s England,
Europe, U.S. – exactly.

So, what do you say to people who are – you`re talking about global
poverty, things in Tanzania and are saying like we`re screwed right now, I
as a worker in America, like why should this be a thing I`m thinking about.

EVANS: Well, I think injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere. And I
think we`re talking about the worst form of human suffering which is those
that would die for a lack of a 30-cent immunization. So, anyone can wrap
their mind around how morally wrong that is. But even if you don`t care
for moral reasons, you can also care because it`s in your own enlightened
self-interest.

Because you can see how, as Lars said earlier, the world is so increasingly
interconnected. So, a disease that originates in one part of the world can
be in America overnight. So, that`s why we care about global health
because it affects you and I as much as it affects someone in Mexico or
Guatemala.

HAYES: last question, is there an act that`s playing here you`re
particularly excited to see play live?

ULRICH: I would say Kendrick, it`s always fun to see what happens when
Kendrick takes the stage. And my two oldest kids are huge fans of him.

HAYES: Bring them home a selfie or something.

ULRICH: Pulled out of the week. Just give me an autograph or something.

HAYES: That`s awesome. Thanks a lot, Lars.

Good luck this weekend.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HAYES: Tune in to MSNBC tomorrow at 3:00 p.m. Eastern to watch the Global
Citizens Festival live. There will be performances by Metallica, Rihanna,
Kendrick Lamar, Demi Lavato, many others. You do not want to miss it.

Coming up, we`ll check back in on the ground in Charlotte, North Carolina.
That`s ahead.

But first, tonight`s Thing One, Thing Two starts right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: Thing One tonight, we go first to the Wayback machine. While Newt
Gingrich was running for president four years ago a controversy bubbled up
regarding his campaign finances. You see, in December of 2011 a watchdog
group filed an FEC complaint alleging the campaign paid
Gingrich himself $42,000 for his mailing list. Now, the group claimed that
payment was not disclosed on his FEC filing.

The following month, the campaign disclosed the payment to their saying the
sum was actually $47,005.

Now, first off, this raised some eye brows. While campaigns typically
purchase mailing lists, it was strange to use donor money to buy a mailing
list from the campaign`s own candidate, especially when Gingrich could have
gifted the mailing list for free as an in-kind donation.

Secondly, the FEC followed up about an investigation, specifically why the
payment hadn`t been originally disclosed. And only this past April, more
than four years later, decided to dismiss the case calling it an accounting
error.

Now, all this was over $47,000 that Gingrich appeared to be dealing himself
and $47,000 is a lot of money, but what if a candidate did that with more
than 170 times that amount of money? That person is Thing Two in just 60
seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEWT GINGRICH, FRM. SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: By the end of my second term.

(CHEERS)

GINGRICH: We will have the first permanent base on the moon, and it will
be American.

(CHEERS)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: So beautiful.

So Newt Gingrich got in hot water during his 2012 presidential race for
using campaign funds to pay himself $47,000 for a mailing list. Now, in an
analysis of campaign finance filings by Politico we learned the Trump
campaign has paid Trump businesses more than $8 million so far in this
race, that includes $1.3 million in rent for campaign offices, half a
million for food and facilities for events, over $300,000 for corporate
staffers, and nearly $6 million for the use of Trump`s private plane.

In a statement the campaign said in part the campaign has used known
quanties as far as event
space, air travel and accommodations and has fulfilled all FEC requirements
throughout he
campaign.

We should note it is not illegal for the campaign to pay Trump owned
businesses as long as they`re charging fair market rates. And while the
optics are pretty stunning, we shouldn`t be surprised. Afterall, this is
the guy that told Fortune magazine in 2000 it`s very possible I could be
the first presidential candidate to run and make money on it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: All right, you`re looking at live images of actually Atlanta,
Georgia at this hour. There is a march that has been organized there by
the NAACP. You can see they`re marching down the street there, this
obviously in response to shooting of Keith Scott in Charlotte, North
Carolina, as well as Terence Crutcher in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

There have been – this is live pictures of this hour of Charlotte. And
joining me on the streets of Charlotte is NBC News Correspondent Tammy
Leitner.

Tammy, what`s the scene like there?

TAMMY LEITNER, NBC NEWS: (inaudible) They`re encouraging everybody to go
out and watch the video that was released today. And if they haven`t seen
it, they`re encouraging everybody to go out and watch the video that was
released today. And if they haven`t seen it, they`re encouraging them to
go online and watch the video and then take to the streets, whether they
live in Charlotte or another city, they`re encouraging everybody to go out
and be part of what they`re calling a revolution, a
way of overthrowing what they see as an inaccurate or un – a system that`s
not working – Chris.

HAYES: All right, Tammy Leitner, thank you very much. Live on the streets
of Charlotte there. We will of course keep monitoring that situation.

Up next, the purposeful lowering of expectations for Donald Trump`s first
presidential debate and why you shouldn`t fall for it, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: If anonymous Trump campaign sources are to be believed, they`re
pretty concerned he`s going to blow the big debate Monday night with an
utter lack of preparation.

According to The New York Times, he`s approaching the debate like a big man
on campus who thinks his last minute term paper will will be dazzling
simply because he wrote it. He`s paid only cursory attention to briefing
materials. He`s refused to use lecterns and mock debate sessions despite
the urging of has advisers, and he prefers spitballing ideas with his team
rather than honing them to crisp two minute answers.

It`s a classic case of expectation setting. They are telling reporters
this. They are setting the bar so rock bottom low all the candidate has to
do to clear it is avoid completely screwing up.

Now, it`s also true that it`s a pretty plausibly accurate case to make
about Donald Trump with his
disinterest in policy, fragile ego and habit of lashing out already
legendary.

Less so Hillary Clinton who is known for her intense preparation and her
meticulous attention to detail.

All of that expectation wise is priced into viewers` assessments of her
performance, making it that much harder for her to impress them. Even
Breitbart, the house organ of the Trump campaign, is
getting in on the expectations act writing sorry, Trump fans, Hillary
Clinton will win the first debate.

I`m sure that`s completely written in good faith.

Joining me now Josh Barro senior editor for Business Insider and an MSNBC
contributor; Betsy Woodruff, politics reporter for the Daily Beast.

Before we get to the debate, can we just talk about the Ted Cruz
endorsement?

JOSH BARRO, BUSINESS INSIDER: Yes.

HAYES: It is just…

BARRO: Gladly.

HAYES: It is just amazing. I mean, here`s someone – you know, you can
accuse him of flip-flopping or being inconsistent, but what he has been
remarkably consistent from day one, which is
what he thinks will politically benefit him, that is what he is going to
do. And I`ve never seen someone so transparently operate in that way
while constantly claiming the mantel of righteous principle.

BARRO: Yeah. No, I think that`s right, although I thought it was
remarkable in July when he
pointedly declined to endorse Ted Cruz (sic) at the Republican convention,
because I thought
that was not in his political best interest…

HAYES: Trump, to endorse Trump.

BARRO: Right, yeah.

i thought that was not in his best interest, because what would happen was
exactly what happened which is that Republicans would be very upset that he
was not getting behind the person they nominated. So when I looked at in
July, I thought well maybe he`s genuinely offended that this guy tweeted
about the un-attractiveness of his wife and suggested that his father had
been involved in the
JFK assassination and spread this National Enquirer article that baselessly
suggested he had five extra
marital affairs.

I thought there was something in Ted Cruz`s dignity that prevented him by
endorsing a candidate like that, because that was the best explanation of
what he did.

HAYES: Boy, were you wrong!

BARRO: I know I was wrong.

So, the only plausible explanation is that he really thought in July that
it was in his best interest to be against Trump. Now he`s changed his
mind, decided it`s in his best interest to be for Trump, which what that
says to me is Ted Cruz is a totally craven politician and will say anything
to win, but isn`t even good at it.

HAYES: That is what`s – it`s incompetent cravenness, which is what`s so
fascinating about it.

And Betsy, to Josh`s point, I think there was this moment, right – there
was a moment around May, June, where there was this question of, is this
going to fracture the Republican Party, right? Basically, will Trump
fracture. Are there going to be a sort of a Trump wing and a never Trump
wing and what we know now is no. It`s basically a united party behind him
and Cruz`s numbers in Texas were plummeting and he was facing a possible
primary challenge and this cements that this is the party of Trump.

BETSY WOODRUFF, DAILY BEAST: Without a doubt.

What`s interesting is that the never Trump movement has always had more
bark than bite. It`s always been comprised of people who are very
influential in D.C. and New York, you know, conservatives who are connected
to media and connected to reporters, are very good at pushing their
messages, but obviously aren`t as great as they said when it comes to
influencing the actual
Republican Party, whereas we had Reince Priebus on Sunday going on one of
the Sunday shows
and actually saying that Donald Trump made a valid point when he asked for
President Obama`s birth certificate.

The fact is many Republicans and conservatives in sort of the east coast
beltway elite, they don`t totally understand where the party`s base is.

HAYES: right.

WOODRUFF: Now, what struck me about Cruz, though, is that he was quite
sanctimonious when he talked about opposing Trump.

HAYES: You think?

WOODRUFF: He actually said that part of the reason was…

HAYES: ddoes he have another speed?

WOODRUFF: …he was like a puppy dog and here we are.

HAYES: Right. Yes. Exactly.

Well, so – OK. So, let`s now – Ted Cruz – I think he wants to bury the
news underneath the debate and I will sort of help him with that by turning
to the debate now, which is going ot happen on Monday.

Here`s my – I have two hot takes. So, I`ll give you them in order.

Hot take number one, I want to get your reaction to.

Hot take number one is that Trump is not going to be particularly
bombastic. He`s going to be fairly subdued and low key. What do you think
about that prediction?

BARRO: I disagree with that prediction. I think Trump is going to try to
be fairly low key, but the problem is that I don`t think he is going to
very well with Clinton attacking him fairly relentlessly for 90 minutes.
It`s going to be something he didn`t experience in any of the primary
debates, first of all, because none of them were one-on-one, but also
because there was a whole set of issues that the other Republican
candidates couldn`t go after Trump that hard on. They had this difficult
position where they were trying to knock Trump down while appealing to the
voters who liked a lot of the outrageous things about Donald Trump.

Clinton is giong to have no such restrictions. She`s going to attack him
on a wide variety of
fronts and I don`t think Trump is going to deal very well with being
attacked in that way.

HAYES: All right, Betsy, my other hot take on this, which sort of relates
to what Josh has said is I think there is a sense that Clinton is going to
come after Trump and there`s this idea that she can bait him into doing
something bombastic or self-destructive.

I think tat that`s a plausible strategy. But I also think there is a case
to be made that Clinton actually in some ways is best served by almost
ignoring him and the sort of marginal voters that there are to get for
Hillary Clinton are voters who already think poorly of Donald Trump and are
not sold on her. And that a huge part of what this debate can be for her
is to say, hey, look, I`m actually a likable, extremely competent, smart
person who would make a good president as opposed to I am not this
monster.

WOODRUFF: Yeah, I think that definitely would be a valid approach for her,
but the reality is throughout the course of the general election it`s been
really tough for Clinton to have an entire news cycle just focused on her
positive or negative.

I think the one time media only talked about Hillary Clinton was the 9/11
incident, the health incident that she had. That`s the only time there`s
been kind of a single-minded focus Hillary Clinton and the challenge that
presents for her is that when she tries to change narratives she just gets
ignored.

I mean, I remember earlier this week she gave a speech trying to pitch
herself to Millennials. I can hardly think of any serious coverage that
speech got even though she`s struggling with Millennials and reaching out
to them is super important. So, it`s kind of a damned if you do, damned if
you don`t for her when it comes to talking about Trump because the reality
is Trump will be the story. Tat`s just the reality. And it`s tough for
her to find a way to sort of fit herself into that narrative I think in a
way that is going to be advantageous.

I`m sure she can figure it out, but it will be interesting to see how her
team does those calculations.

HAYES: All right, Josh, I want to quickly play this clip exchange between
Jeb Bush and
Donald Trump in the debate. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEB BUSH, FRM. GOVERNOR OF FLORIDA: Donald Trump he wanted casino gambling
in Florida. Yes, you did.

TRUMP: Totally false.

BUSH: You wanted it and you didn`t get it. I was opposed to casino
gambling before, during and after. And that`s not – I`m not going to be
bought by anyone.

TRUMP: I promise, if I wanted it I would have gotten it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: OK, we now know from Kurt Eichenwald`s reporting that in a sworn
deposition, Donald Trump did want casino gambling and did attempt to
essentially donate Jeb Bush into it.

So you have this exchange where Donald Trump just flat-out lied or he
committed perjury, one of the two, and that, to me, is the problem in a
nutshell of debating Donald Trump.

BARRO: Yeah, although, again, that was, what, a nine-way debate? In the
one-on-one it is going to be harder for Trump to get away from those sorts
of things because there will be more opportunities for Hillary to follow up
on those sorts of things. And I also think to your previous point, I think
she really does need to induce errors from him because the biggest hazard
to Hillary Clinton is that Trump could clear the low bar of acceptability
in this debate. The main thing she needs is for him not convince college-
educated women that he is sufficiently non-crazy to be president.

HAYES: All right, Josh Barro, Betsy Woodruff, thank you very much.

Remember, you can see the debate here on MSNBC Monday at 9:00 p.m. Be sure
to tune in on Sunday night for a special edition of All In at 7:00 p.m.
Eastern. The Rachel Maddow Show starts right now.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
BE UPDATED.
END

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