All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 8/22/2016

Harry Enten, Joan Walsh, Jelani Cobb, Jim Newell, Katrina Pierson, Kurt Bardella, Christine Greer

Date: August 22, 2016
Guest: Harry Enten, Joan Walsh, Jelani Cobb, Jim Newell, Katrina Pierson,
Kurt Bardella, Christine Greer

[08:00:00] CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: . to late night edition of
Hardball, Trump don`t you think? He keeps saying Hillary is getting a lot
of sleep these days, and she said this weekend maybe he ought to try it.

That`s Hardball for now, thanks for being with us I`ll be back in 11:00
p.m. Eastern tonight for another special late night edition of Hardball.
All In with Chris Hayes starts right now.



DONALD TRUMP, US PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I want our party to be the home
of the African-American voter once again.

HAYES: The Trump outreach continues.

by his comments.

HAYES: As the AP drops a bombshell headline, racism and talk of religious
war in Trumps staff`s online post.

Tonight, what to make of the latest Republican outreach. Plus, can Trump
etch-a-sketch on immigration?

TRUMP: Who is going to pay for the wall?

HAYES: And why Donald Trump just delayed his big border speech?

Then new depths in the Hillary Clinton health smears.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go online and put down Hillary Clinton illness, take a
look at the videos for yourself.

HAYES: And inside 80 days.

TRUMP: I just get the feeling we`re going to win in a landslide.

HAYES: An election map gut check when All In starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

In less than a week since Donald Trump`s big campaign shake-up, his latest
attempt to reboot as a kindler, gentler candidate, new reporting from the
Associated Press raises questions about the role of racial analyst in the
Trump campaign.

The AP looked at the personal social media feeds there were over 50 paid
staffers on Trump`s primary campaign (inaudible) post declared Muslims as
unfit to be US citizens, ridiculed Mexican accents, called for Secretary of
State John Kerry to be hanged and stated the readiness for a possible civil

According to the AP a similar review of Clinton`s staff accounts and images
attached to over 19,000 hacked DNC e-mails turned up nothing of note. This
comes as Trump has been trying to repair his lonesome image of the direct
pitch to African-American voters are going in a fact that their lives are
just so miserable, things couldn`t possibly get worse with Trump as


TRUMP: What do you have to lose by trying something new, like Trump? What
do you have to lose? You`re living in poverty, your schools are no good,
you have no jobs.

You have 40 percent that are living in poverty, 58 percent of the students,
I mean the young people, they can`t get jobs. You know it`s just like a
total catastrophe, the unemployment rates, everything is bad, no
healthcare, no education, no anything.

Poverty, rejection, horrible education, no housing, no homes, no ownership,
crime at levels that nobody has seen, you can go to war zones in countries
that we`re fighting and it`s safer than living in some of our inner cities.


HAYES: By the way, that last part about crime at levels nobody has ever
seen, it just flatly, completely, empirically false. But, when it comes to
wooing Black voters, Trump has his work cut out for him. After first
demanding the President of the United States produce his papers, then
launching his campaign with a slur about Mexican immigrants calling for a
ban on Muslims entering the country and failing to properly reject support
from a valid White supremacist among other offenses.

Republican nominee has support from just 17 percent of non-White registered
voters overall in the latest NBC news poll. Among African Americans, he`s
at a rock bottom 1 percent. On top of his bigoted remarks, Trump dismissed
these issues like criminal justice reform and voting rights which are high
priority from many Black voters instead discussing voter fraud and crime in
coded terms.


TRUMP: The only way we could lose, in my opinion, I really mean this,
Pennsylvania, is if cheating goes on, if in certain sections of the state,
they cheat. The problem in our poorest communities is not that there are
too many police, the problem is there are not enough police.


HAYES: While he`s trying to deliver a somewhat more inclusive message over
the past week, Trump sent a very different signal by hiring Steve Bannon,
the Chairman of Breitbart News as his new campaign CEO, a site known for
bigoted attacks on immigrants, Muslims, and African-Americans among others.
Revealingly, the website even has a discreet tag for articles related to
“Black crime.” Bannon embraces the organization`s racial politics proudly
telling Mother Jones, we`re the platform for the alt-right, a term which is
a new more politically correct term for White supremacist in the digital
age. So when Donald Trump promises to get 95 percent of the Black vote
after four years in office, even his running mate, Mike Pence can`t take
him seriously.


[08:05:01] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He says by 2020 he`s going to have 95
percent of the African-American support. Why are you laughing?

GOV. MIKE PENCE, (R), INDIANA: And Well that`s Donald Trump. Look, he has
a heart for every American. And he also– he`s a truth teller.


HAYES: And the observers have noticed that Trump`s pitch to the African-
Americans has been delivered to almost all White audiences, suburban
Wisconsin and Michigan and on Fox news. It`s also lack of opportunity, in
fact Trump has turned down invitations to address predominantly Black
audiences including from the NAACP and the National Association of Black

An interview of the weekend Trump`s new campaign manager pollster Kellyanne
Conway alluded to the intended recipients of Trump`s message.


CONWAY: These comments are for all Americans. And I live in a White
community. I`m White. I was very moved by his comment. In other words,
he is trying to tell Americans we can do better.


HAYES: Joining me now, Former RNC Chairman, Michael Steele and our MSNBC
political analyst Kurt Bardella, who`s President and CEO of Endeavor
Strategies Communications Firm that represented Breitbart News until
recently, and Christina Greer Associate Professor of political science at
Fordham University author of “Black Ethnics: Race, Immigration, and the
Pursuit of the American Dream.”

Michael, let me start with you. So you`ve got this thing going on, so
you`ve making this sort of a punitive approach, right to be in (inaudible).


HAYES: To think that this is even (inaudible) tonight, telling his
supporters and he has this line, you know what I mean, and listen very
carefully to watch the election, the polls on Election Day. Take a listen.


TRUMP: You`ve got to get every one of your friends, you`ve got to get
every one of your family, you`ve got to get everybody to go out and watch
and go out and vote. And when I say watch, you know what I`m talking
about, right? You know what I`m talking about. I think you got to go out
and you got to watch.


HAYES: What`s he talking about, Michael?

STEELE: Hell if I know. But I think we know. I mean, I think there is
the not so subtle inference that somehow, you know, that there is going to
be, you know, sort of a stacking of the deck with minority voters and
certain communities in the country whether in Philadelphia or places like
Baltimore city or.

HAYES: Right.

STEELE: You know Detroit and Michigan, which is it`s, you know, just
ludicrous in the – on its face. But it`s also, you know, the rest of that
argument goes to the point that you know he`s trying to get his base vote
to turn out because at the end of the day, regardless of how you cut this
thing, he needs at a minimum that base to be in place for him. So to stoke
it into, to massage it to get to that point, that`s what a lot of his hot
rhetoric does a lot of times. And it`s unfortunate. I mean, both parties
have engaged in it in various forms over the years. He`s more blatant and
more direct about it, oddly enough.

HAYES: Kurt, let me talk to you for second about Breitbart. You work –
you had a contract with them, you represented them, you left, you don`t
have particularly kind things to say about Steve Bannon, the man who is now
ending up the Trump campaign. I mean, in terms of Steve Bannon`s racial
politics, because the guy is now running this campaign, I just think about
like what the thinking that goes in a website that creates a Black crime
tag to me just says a lot about what that website views itself as doing.

Well, and I think that there`s an alignment there between Steve and Donald
Trump, which is why Donald put Steve in this position to be the CEO of his
campaign. And while we`re seeing the coded language that we`ve become all
too familiar with from Donald Trump on the campaign trail, that fits
perfectly in alignment with what Steve believes and the direction he thinks
that this country should take. And it`s incredibly dangerous, it`s

And at the end of the day, the idea that Republicans can have some outreach
to African-American voters in the community by saying the right things. At
the end of the day, people want policies and solutions. And there is a
whole generation of African-Americans who are being wiped out right now
because of poverty, because of crime, because of circumstances that they
are trapped in. And if Republicans are going to really to make serious end
roads with that community, they`re going to have to talk about solutions
and policies and not why everything is so wrong and blaming people in and
trying to turn the worst instincts of Americans against one another to try
to get ahead politically.

HAYES: I think one of the things, Christina that is so fasting about
watching this whole thing, because I think the politics of about the
duration of the Obama era continue to be the main theme of American
politics, probably the main theme of American politics from the first
moment of Jamestown.

In fact, read the letter that the captain of the ship wrote about like the
Indians and Savages. But anyway, I digressed. You know, you`ve got a
situation here where in some ways, right at one level, African-Americans
have not been the group that Donald Trump has most frankly attacked report
or said bigoted statements about, right. It is mostly the immigrants and
Muslims in terms of like his policy plans. And yet the support among that
group is very low, because when we talk about coded messages, my sense is
that those voters are hearing exactly what other voters on the other side
are hearing.

[08:10:02] CHRISTINA GREER, FORDHAM UNIVERSITY: Right, so first things
first, in the history of America is the history of race and racism.

HAYES: Right.

GREER: Right? And so when Donald Trump`s speak about immigrants or
Muslims or whomever, it maybe women and even still a lot of Black Americans
are so used to, if you were talking one group, you are also talking about
Black Americans. I mean, there is a certain level of solid area where we
hear these dog whistles that most White Americans will never hear.

HAYES: Right. That`s right.

GREER: That`s first. This non-genuine attempt to speak to African-
Americans, he`s a business owner. So, we do know the blacks voters are
some of the savviest voters in this country, right? And we do know that
Black voters have shown up in presidential elections, especially the past
three cycles.

HAYES: And Black women will sort of out – turn out anyone in America.

GREER: Exactly. We are the ones who are(inaudible). So he recognizes
that (inaudible) someone in that asylum gets it, right? And so for him to
make this statement about Black Americans, I said well, if you were genuine
in your attempts in getting this vote, why don`t you say, well I`ve been a
business owner for x number, or 40 years, I`ve hired this many women, I`ve
hired this many people of color, I hired this many percentage of people who
have gone on to own businesses. He hasn`t done that because he`s a
failure, right. And so this is now his loose attacks to make sort of White
Americans feel better about voting for him and not seem like blatant

HAYES: That, I mean .

GREER: Or (inaudible) or homophobic, or (inaudible) immigrants.

HAYES: So, one level Michael that seems to me this classic thing, right,
where you don`t want to see tab. You don`t want to be – is he
unacceptably racist, right? You don`t want to see to be elect people
whatever their racial attitudes let`s say a White college educated woman of
the Georgia suburbs, wherever she fits on the scale of her politics about
race or crime, she doesn`t want to feel associated with the Klan, right?


HAYES: She doesn`t want to feel she`s voting for someone who is an avowed
White, right. So part of that is, is this appeal. But what I think is so
interesting about what`s happening here in terms of how this language is
being communicated, you know Mitt Romney lost Asian-Americans by a huge
percentage. The biggest landslide among Asian-Americans as the fastest
growing population demographically in the sense but it wasn`t like he had
like anti-Asian immigration rhetoric, right? It was the fact that there`s
an understanding of what the political constituencies and collisions of the
country are such that people are finding themselves on the other side. And
Donald Trump is exacerbating that whatever he is saying at these rallies.

STEELE: Yes I mean, I think that that`s a big part of what we`ve seen
unfold in our political rhetoric for quite some time. Not just in this
race. I mean, you can really take it back to I think some of its origins
going back to the 2000 campaign where you started to divide the country up
by color, red states versus blue states, et cetera. So this idea has been
allowed to fester for some time.

Donald Trump comes along and has exploited it very well in many cases at
least successfully enough to get through a primary process in which no
other Republican had a counter argument, which I found absolutely stunning.

HAYES: Right.

STEELE: So this is the space we`re now in. And what is going to be very
interesting, and I think really, to Christina`s point, is how this
resonates not just beyond, because we know the message goes beyond, you
know, the community of color that he`s talking to, African America but more
importantly how do black women who are the backbone of the vote in the
Black community. How do they then articulate that going forward to really
put the pressure out there to say, you know what, we ain`t stupid,

HAYES: Right.

STEELE: We need a little bit more than just your citing the statistics.

HAYES: So Kurt this point – this is one question I have, and what we`re
talking about in the moment about immigration policy. Is your sense that
he has earned his bonafides with the Breitbart crew enough? That he can
basically say whatever he wants to this point and they believe Trump is
with them? Like other any heresies that he couldn`t cross and lose
essentially what is this sort of White nationalist base?

BARDELLA: Well I think that you saw a little bit of maybe the limitations
of his relationship with that audience this week as it came out that
perhaps he was changing his mind about how he was going to deal with
deportation and all of a sudden the immigration speech gets postponed and
pushed back. Because that alt-right audience feels so ludicrously
passionate about some of these issues that it doesn`t matter who the figure
is they could potentially turn on you in a dime.

I mean, remember, some of these leaders that were elected in the 2010 Tea
Party wave and were put into key positions, they`re no longer with us and
they were completely turned the tea party. I think that Trump realized
very quickly and his campaign realized very quickly that as he maybe made
that pivot the other day about not being on the deportation, the brakes got
put on that really quick and all of a sudden he now comes out with again
charged rhetoric, trying to change the story, trying to divert attention
that Hillary Clinton and some of her challenges. It`s – yes that`s the

HAYES: Are the margins going to hold, do you think, given though the sort
of trajectory of all this, this like 1 percent, 2 percent numbers, those
things possible to you?

GREER: They do.

HAYES: As a political scientist?

GREER: Yeah, as a scholar.

HAYES: Yes, I mean seriously?

[08:15:01] GREER: With no job, no education, no house, right?

HAYES: That`s right. Yes, that`s exactly .

GREER: Just an Ivy League PhD.

HAYES: Right.

GREER: But that`s OK. So they will hold. I really do because he has been
feeding his audience red meat and he cannot turn back. And this is a
saying and he says, you know, the streets are dangerous but at the same
time he`s like but we know what that means. And so, he constantly has this
urban racialized language. And he.

HAYES: You can`t dog whistle without the other – with the people everyone
else hearing it, right?

GREER: Exactly.

HAYES: I mean, people understand what the coded language is.

GREER: Right. And so, and at the same time, saying he wants to keep the
police militarized. Well, that`s a major issue of Black Americans who live
in cities, right? And these are the people who we look at the map, as
Michael said blue states, red states, but, they aren`t red stat states.
It`s – They`re all red states. It`s blue cities in red states.

HAYES: That`s true.

GREER: Right. Do you have enough blue cities in red states to flip it
blue? So, he loses in the 270 race.

HAYES: Michael Steele, Kurt Bardella, Christina Greer, thank you all for
joining me.

Still to come, as Rudy Guilliani ascends the ranks to Donald Trump`s inner
circle, a look at depths he sank to get there. But first, a new twist in
the center piece of Donald Trump`s campaign, his latest comments as Kurt
just mentioned is elusive immigration policy right after this two-minute



TRUMP: We`re going to build a wall, folks, we`re going to build a wall.
We`re going to build a wall. Don`t worry, we`re going to build a wall.
That wall will go up so fast your head will spin. And you`ll say, you
know, he meant it. And you know what else I mean? Mexico is going to pay
for the wall.


HAYES: It has been one of the few quasi consistencies of his campaign from
the moment he drifted down that escalator, Donald Trump has repeatedly
vilified the immigrants. He`s mentioned building a wall along the southern
boarders so many times that crowd at his rallies like the one just last
night greet the phrase, build the wall with thunderous applause and
sometimes finish his sentences about who`s going to pay for it.

He has been uncompromising in his advocacy from mass deportations even
pitching the idea of an – of a deportation force to remove some 11 million
undocumented immigrants in the US.

Over the weekend, there seemly a few sign that some of his positions may be
starting to shift. After Trump met with a group of Hispanic leaders, some
of the room seemed optimistic Republican nominee who`s going to modify his
position on mass deportations. One attendee telling innovation, “I really
liked that Trump acknowledged that there`s a big problem with the 11
million undocumented people over here and that deporting them is neither
possible nor humane.”

His newly minted campaign manager Kellyanne Conway added a speculation,
Trump might be starting to shift his position.


CONWAY: As the weeks unfold he will lay out the specifics of that plan
that he would implement as president of the United States.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will that plan include a deportation force, the kind
he – you just heard them that sound bite and then he talked about during
the Republican primaries?

CONWAY: To be determined.


HAYES: Even the hands of a possible pivot on immigration sent him Trump
the Fox News this morning consist he was not “flip-flopping” on the issue
even thought he still had no specifics somewhere he currently stands.


[08:20:04] TRUMP: I will tell you, we`re dealing with people. We have to
be very firm. We have to be very, very strong when people come in
illegally. We have a lot of people that want to come in through the legal
process. It`s not fair for them. And we`re working with a lot of people
in the Hispanic community to try and come up with an answer.


HAYES: Just in case the message wasn`t clear, Eric Trump also dispatched
to assure supporters there was no softening on immigration.


ERIC TRUMP, DONALD TRUMP`S SON: My father hasn`t flip flopped on anything.
I meant, this was all the auspices and one article that came out that
didn`t really – wasn`t grounded in any substance. But, again, my father
is going to be in this big speech on Thursday and so he`ll be talking a lot
about the specifics.


HAYES: Well, it turns out we won`t be getting those specifics on Trump`s
immigration policy any time soon late today. Trump`s big immigration
speech planned for this Thursday in the formerly battleground state of
Colorado was called off. No word on when and it will be reschedule.

Joining me now NBC and MSNBC political reporter Benjy Sarlin, who`s been
documenting this confusional Trump campaign. His latest piece is entitled
“Solving the Mystery of Donald Trump`s Missing Immigration Policy”.

Benjy, you`ve been covering immigration policy for awhile, you`ve also been
covering Trump for awhile. What do you think is going on here?

of trump`s signature issues. You played the clips. You heard him say,
build the wall again, build the wall, build the wall, make Mexico pay for

Here`s the funny thing, Trump talks about building the wall a lot but he`s
actually often than sort of vague and even flexible on what to do with
people already here. Now, why does this matter? You probably heard the
most about the wall if you`ve been following his campaign. But if you
covered the immigration debate in 2013, by far the biggest issue was legal
status or a path to citizenship or no legal status for undocumented

And in fact, if you went to Democrats and said, hey, we`ll give you a deal,
we`ll build Donald Trump`s wall but in exchange we`ll give you a path to
citizenship, they almost certainly would take it. In fact, the gang is
(inaudible) attached in 2013 included a requirement for 700 miles of
fencing. It was put in there just to bring in Republican voters. Trump
doesn`t seem to understand this.

HAYES: And literally billions of dollars, billions of dollars of extremely
militarized weaponry to be deployed to the border as well.

SARLIN: Exactly. They were going to actually double the border patrol,
add another 20,000 people. I mean, the basic idea for Democrats was that
OK, you know, it`s like the equivalent of, you know, land for peace as the
basis of Israeli-Palestinians are, enforcement for legalization as the
basis for all immigration negotiations that are bipartisan.

So, the Democratic idea is, you know, basically name your price on
enforcement and on immigration as what you know if it`s just money, or just
money we don`t care, we`ll take the rest as part of the deal. Trump,
however, does not have a strong working knowledge of these kinds of
subtleties. He just kind of barreled you know, cannon ball them to the
debate late. As late as 2013 and 2012, he sounded like he might even be
pro-immigration reform. It`s actually relatively reason and only during
his presidential campaign that we started hearing this talk of mass
deportations and things like that and deporting entire families.

In fact, he met with a group of dreamers in 2013 and they came away just
like the Hispanic Republicans who met with Trump this week convinced that
he was on their side. So, this is just an issue we thought about all that
much compared to a border wall.

HAYES: Right. And what is hilarious to me, darkly comical, I suppose, is
watching him try to square the circle that everybody who`s been working in
this area, reporting on it, thinking about it, legislating about it has
been trying to square for years.

I mean, all these problems have been there. I covered the McCain-Kennedy
fight in 2006, 2007. You and I both cover the conference immigration fight
of 2012 and 2013, all of this stuff is tough and thorny and doesn`t have
easy solutions and all of a sudden it`s like – he`s like a college kid
with the deadline with a speech on Thursday. It`s like, yeah, we`re going
to work this out in time.

SARLIN: Exactly. If you were covering his debate, I mean it was like
pulling teeth getting answers out of so many lawmakers on what their
position was on this simple question of do people who are here, who came
here illegally get to stay?

Senator Ted Cruz maintained total ambiguity on this for years. It was only
during primaries when he was getting pushed really hard by Rubio and by
Trump that he actually officially said my policy is all this have to leave,
basically the Mitt Romney self-deportation position.

But, yes, this is an area where people choose their words very carefully.
Trump is not one of those guys. He just kind of go shoots from the hip,
explains it later and now it`s getting into some real problems he does not
have a policy that particularly makes sense or it fits together on this

HAYES: And David (inaudible) sort of taunting Trump who had attacked Mitt
Romney for his self deportation rhetoric as essentially that he`s going to
end up painting himself into precisely the same corner because it`s the
only way that he could kind of pull all these various threads together in a
way that makes any remote policy sense.

SARLIN: Right. And this is one of those ironic things here. Before Trump
announced, he would have this deportation force that rounds up everyone and
he said in under two years you can get rid of all 11 million undocumented
immigrants, basically no one was calling for that, even among the groups
that were opposed to the gang of eight.

HAYES: Yeah, even the hardest right edge of American immigration politics
did not .

[08:25:01] SARLIN: Right. That was basically – their idea was basically,
we just won`t give some kind of “amnesty.” Hopefully if we make it harder
for them to live there, they`ll leave. He just like ignored that debate
entirely and went for something much further and now, it`s much tougher to
walk it back as a result. He – you end up with a very confusing policy.

HAYES: All right, Benjy Sarlin, thanks for that.

Still to come, Donald Trump tonight in Ohio to the crowd he had a feeling
he`s going to win the landslide. Tonight, why the numbers right now do not
agree an electoral gut check, ahead.


HAYES: Hillary Clinton`s health is now a full-scale fringe internet
conspiracy theory, along the same level as the 2008 insanity that Sarah
Palin didn`t actually give birth to her own baby which made the rounds
during that presidential cycle, thanks Andrew Sullivan for that ride away.

The difference of course is that the Palin nonsense was never actually put
front and center by the actual campaign of Barack Obama. But, in this
election cycle the kind of fever swamp fantasies provide by Alex Jones and
pedaled by Sean Hanny tin segment after excruciating segment along with
assorted doctors is also insinuated again, again by Donald Trump himself
when he talk about things like Hillary Clinton`s sleeping.


TRUMP: Let me just say she`s totally protected. I`ve never seen anything
like it by the media. And she doesn`t really do that much to give a speech
on the tele prompter and then she`ll disappear. I don`t know she goes home
and go to sleep. I think she sleeps.


HAYES: Trump even tweet, “Where`s Hillary, sleeping?” Just be clear it`s
not just insinuation, the campaign talks about Hillary health conspiracy
theory, as if they are ann actual thing.


KATRINA PIERSON, ACTIVIST: He had said that she doesn`t have the strength
or the stamina for a very long time. That part is nothing new. What`s new
are the other reports of the observations of Hillary Clinton`s behavior and


HAYES: Reports of observations. One of the most zealous pushers of the
health conspiracy theory appears to be Trump surrogate Rudy Giulliani, the
former mayor of New York. Just how far Guiliani has fallen, right? After
the break.



RUDY GIULIANI, FRM. MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: Several signs of illness by
her. All you`ve got to do is go online.

UNIDENITIFIED FEMALE: Her campaign and a number of people defending her
saying there is nothing factual to the claims about her health and that`s
speculation at best.

GIULIANI: So go online and put down Hillary Clinton illness and take a
look at the videos for yourself.


HAYES: Let me Google that for you. Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani
slipping in references to Hillary Clinton`s health this weekend. Even when
he wasn`t asked about her health and even when the anchor is fact checking
him in real-time, it`s a tactic Giuliani employed again this morning.


GIULIANI: I think Hillary is tired, I do. When I saw Hillary at the press
conference sitting down with the police – with the Democrat appointed
police chiefs pretending she`s pro police, it was one of the most pathetic
press conferences I have ever seen.

UNIDENITIFIED MALE: What do you mean?

GIULIANI: Well first, she looks sick.


HAYES: This is the gotcha video to which Giuliani refers. Hillary Clinton
was sitting during a conference with law enforcement officials in New York
last Thursday, as was everybody else. It would have been weird if she were

It`s worth noting that on the spectrum of change, Giuliani is pretty far
along. Low lights include not just Clinton health conspiracy theories,
also such things as defending Trump`s most bigoted policy positions pointed
out by Jelani Cobb, staff writer for The New Yorker, and his recent piece
“The Appalling Last Act of Rudy Giuliani.”

Jelani joins me now. What do you mean by the appalling last act?

JELANI COBB, THE NEW YORKER: Well, I mean, this is a really quick kind of
preface point. One of the interesting things that New Yorkers remember is
that Guiliani was actually supposed to challenge Hillary Clinton for that
Senate seat and he pulled out in 2000. He pulled out because of his

HAYES: That`s right.

That`s true. I forget about that.

COBB: He had that a projection there. He had prostate cancer at the
time., to give you
health projection going on here.

But the other thing I think that`s the case with him is that there were –
I mean, he was an abrasive person. He was a polarizing person when he was
mayor here. Certainly, there were many African-Americans who were off put
by his inability to recognize issues excessive force among police officers.
But there were things that you had to give him credit on, at least
redeeming kind of qualities, one of which was that he – when proposition
187 happened in California, which would have denied crucial social services
and emergency services, paramedics all those things to people who were in
the country who were undocumented immigrants, Guiliani said that was
inhumane, not once but three different times.

HAYES: In fact, here is a quote from your piece 1996 on immigration. This
is Giuliani himself.

COBB: Giuliani, right.

HAYES: The anti-immigration issue now sweeping the country in my view no
different than
the movements that struck the country in the past. You look back at the
Chinese Exclusionary Act and the Know Nothing Movement, these were
movements that encouraged Americans to fear foreigners, to fear something
that is different and to stop immigration.

COBB: That`s right.


HAYES: A long way from build a wall…

COBB: A long way…

HAYES: The immigration force, yeah.

COBB: And one of the other things I think that he did that people didn`t
remember, right after 9/11, when there were these reports of people of Arab
descent or people who were Muslim being targeted and attacked, Giuliani
spoke out against that vocally, and now to come full circle and to have
embedded himself essentially with the most prominent xenophobe in recent
American history, that`s the appalling part at the end of his career.

HAYES: And Josh Marshall (ph) at Talking Points Memo makes this point,
which I think is so true, is that everyone who – is in the Trump orbit
ends up kind diminished or humiliated by the experience.

I mean, Chris Christie seems to have wisely sort of distanced himself after
he didn`t get the VP slot. We have not seen him sort of by the side, but
there was such, you know, everyone was covering the way that Christie
seemed to be like the errand boy. And now, you have Giuliani who – it`s
like everyone – something about the sort of magnetic political force of
Donald Trump, darkly magnetic, is that when you get in the orbit, you end
up in the vortex.

COBB: Right.

And what`s interesting is that even recently, Giuliani had spoken out
against some of Trump`s policies, which was that in May, when Trump was
talking about creating the ban on Muslim immigration, Giuliani said that
would violate the First Amendment and was unnecessary.

And then, a few months later he was saying, well, perhaps I would consider
leading the commission that Trump says he wants to put together on this

HAYES: What I – what is also striking to me, as aside from telling people
to Google, I mean, you can tell them to Google controlled demolition in
Building 7.

COBB: Or Area 51.

HAYES: Right, as Dave Wygl (ph) pointed out in a very good tweet. I mean,
there`s lots of stuff you can Google.

Is that in some ways Giuliani is sort of the microcosm of the broader sort
of the way in which the Republican Party is being held together, which is
that it all seems essentially essentially focused on
Hillary animus.

What he really relishes, what he sort of gets passionate about, is that
part of the equation.

COBB: Right, that election that he never got to run in, yeah.

And I think that one of the kind of more interesting things about him is he
does not have any constituency that he has to appeal to. He does not have
to worry about the RNC pulling funds from his re-election campaign, none of
these things.

I think that he is just kind of desperate for relevance at this point.

HAYES: That bruise you saw Rudy Giuliani addressing was the result of an
injury sustained in circumstances that are not quite unclear. And it
would be sort of appalling for me to sit on television and suggest to
people that they like speculate or Google about that.

Giuliani Cobb – Jelani Cobb.

COBB: Oh my god, seriously?

HAYES: That was quite a slip. Jelani Cobb. Thank you very much.

Coming up, we got a look at just how the Trump campaign is spending its
money. There`s a detail there we think you should know more about. More
on that after this break.


HAYES: Thing one tonight, the Trump campaign filed their July fund-
raising report Friday submitting it just minutes before the midnight
deadline. The filing showed the campaign is bringing in money with $36
million in donations, the highest yet for the campaign. Although, still
less than the Clinton campaign`s $52 million haul.

The Trump campaign spent $18 million, that`s the highest monthly tally yet,
although still less than the $32 million spent by Clinton.

So, has the Trump campaign the funds to do the fundamental, most basic
operations necessary to compete in a national general election.

Not exactly. They spent $0 on TV ads in July, purchasing $4 million in ads
last week that are not reflected in the last report. Clinton has so for
spent $61 million on TV ads.

And the Trump campaign staff and field organizers increased by just six
people from June to 83 people compared to over 700 paid Clinton staffers.

So, if they weren`t on the air or beefing up staff, what did the Trump
campaign spend its money on? And that is Thing Two in 60 seconds.


HAYES: The Trump campaign spent more in July than any previous months
since Trump launched his campaign 14 months ago, doling out $18 million,
none of that money went to TV ads and they added just six staff members.

So, where did all that money go? Well, the bulk of it went into raising
more money. A full 45 percent, or $8.4 million, went to Giles Parsco (ph),
it`s a digital marketing firm that has done Trump`s online advertising.
You may have seen ads like this soliciting donations at the top of Drudge
Report, or this big donate button ad on Breitbart`s website.

That strategy, spending money to raise more money is similar to the Ben
Carson campaign model, which directed the bulk of its spending on fund-
raising. We know where that got him once the voting began.

Other were big expenditures for Trump`s campaign included over $3 million
for travel, nearly 800,000 to reimburse Trump-owned companies and $1.8
million on merchandise like Trump hats, which is notably more than twice as
much as he spent on staff.

But perhaps the strangest expenditure was $20,000 that went to a CNN
contributor, a man
who is being paid by that network to give his analysis while also receiving
a check from Trump`s
campaign. Of course, we`re talking about ousted campaign manager Corey
Lewandowski who received his regular $20,000 monthly fee on July 6, two
weeks after he was jettisoned and had been hired as a CNN political

Which is strange. But the Trump campaign told The Washington Post the
payment was for work Lewandowski did weeks before when he was still at the

Of course, since it has been reported that Lewandowski still talks to Trump
regularly, gives him advice. I suppose it wouldn`t be surprising if he is
still getting paid for his services next month as

It`s nice work if you can get it.


HAYES: I`ve got to say, these headlines were so stark they even caught my
attention on vacation last week. Aetna announcing it will pulling out of
Obamacare in 11 of 15 states, one month after the Justice Department sued
to stop them from buying another health insurer called Humana.

Humana has also pulled out of many Obamacare markets. And United
Healthcare scaled back in April, which means that as of right now, come
2017, at least four states: Alaska, Alabama, South
Carolina, Wyoming will be down to just one Obamacare insurer in those
exchanges. And at least one rural community, Pinal County in Arizona, will
have no Obamacare insurers after losing Blue Cross and Blue Shield and
HealthNet too.

So, what happens with Obamacare and what can be done to fix it? Slate
magazine`s Jim Newell just took a comprehensive look at that. He joins me

And Jim, I was sort of following this story a bit. I was on vacation. But
I had to kind of like, well, this doesn`t all look very good, feeling
generally about it. What`s your assessment?

JIM NEWELL, SLATE: I think Aetna sparked talk that`s been simmering for a
little while, because earlier this year, United Healthcare and Humana
dropped out of a lot of markets at once.

It seems like it`s an opportunity for Republicans to say the law has failed
completely and needs to be gotten rid of right now, and that`s not true.
In most parts of the country it`s working really wellm it`s just in some
rural areas where you have sicker or older populations, where insurers are
finding they can`t necessarily make any money here and they`re backing out
for now. So, there are limited options.

The problem is that though you`re seeing some movement at the top of the
Democratic Party – you`ve had President Obama and Hillary Clinton each
come out in support for a public option and a list of other fixes to this,
you`re not hearing much from Democrats further down the ballot. They are
still fighting this on the battleground of Republicans are trying to
eliminate the law completely. And we need to defend what we have here.

But it`s looking like this law is going to be coming for some fixes, which
is not unusual – big
pieces of legislation require legislative maintenance, but it`s something
that is going to have to be considered and more thoroughly gotten down to a
list of a few possible fixes before next year.

HAYES: So that`s the question to me. I mean, this is normal – the
legislation has legislative fixes. A lot of times things are creaky or
don`t work, or parts of it work, parts of it don`t. The problem that`s
fundamentally seems to me is that there doesn`t seem any interest by
Republicans to fix the law.

I mean, you have to have some sort of buy-in before you could actually have
a legislative
fix. And that just seems absent. So, it`s like, what`s going to happen?

NEWELL: Right. I mean, it`s a tricky spot, because you do have to –
since Republicans haven`t bought in yet, you do still have to defend and
point out the good things the law has done, but you also can`t see this
entire Rhetorical terrain to them where they`re saying there are these
flaws. The whole thing is doomed. And you just say, well, we`ve done all
of these – it`s done all these great things and sort of ignore the flaws
that are there, not the majority of the program, but that are still there.

So, it`s a tricky needle to go through.

I think it`s probably a little more helpful if – you know, there are some
states – some Senate races – Arizona which you mentioned is being
pummeled by some of these insurers leaving. The Democratic candidate there
is just being attacked on this a lot, and, you know, doesn`t necessarily
want to talk about it a lot.

In North Carolina, I asked where there`s going to be one insurer for most
of the state next year. The Senate candidate there if she would support a
public option or some other remedies and the subject was changed sort of to
a message about defending Medicare.

So, I mean, it`s something like I understand the difficulty of it but, you
know, the book is sort of being reopened with some good metaphors someone
used in this story.

HAYES: Democrats have to be proactive about actually making the law as
good as it can possibly can be and spell that out.

Jim Newell. It`s a great piece at Slate. Check it out. Thanks so much.

NEWELL: OK, thanks, Chris.

HAYES: Up next, an electoral map gut check and the truth behind those
tightened national polls after this break.



TRUMP: Look, these are very greedy people. These are people that have
skirted the law for a long time. Hard to believe that, you know, somebody
like this has a good chance, a fairly good chance of being president,
although if you look at the most recent polls, I think things are turning.
I think they`re turning rather rapidly.


HAYES: In an interview this morning on Fox and Friends, Donald Trump, as
he often does, exaggerated his poll position.

Well, it`s true, he has recently seen a slight improvement in his national
numbers. For example, in the RealClearPolitics average, Clinton was up
eight points August 10 and now that lead down to 5-and-a-half

There is a discrepancy between national and state polls. The statistician
Nate Silver points out national polls show the race tightening, but state
polls don`t.

In fact, three recent swing state polls still show Trump losing to Clinton
– 6 points in Ohio, 9 points in Florida, 11 points in Virginia.

The question here is with 77 days to go until the election, do marginal
increases in national polls actually seem to find anything for Trump when
the state polls still show significantly down.

Joining me now Joan Walsh, national affairs correspondent of The Nation,
MSNBC political analyst and Harry Enten, senior political analyst and Harry
Enten, senior political writer and analyst for FiveThirtyEight.

And Harry, let me start with you, what is the sense of the degree to which
there should be a lockstep relationship between national polling and what
we see in battleground state polling.

HARRY ENTEN, FIVETHIRTYEIGHT: Well, what we saw four years ago, right, was
the national polls right to the end showed a really tight race between Mitt
Romney and Barack Obama, but the state polls, in fact, showed Barack Obama
easily winning the electoral college, and the state polls were right.

In fact, if you were to do a study over the past few election cycles, what
we know is that the state polling, when you ad is all together, gives you a
more accurate idea of what`s going to happen on election day, not just in
the states themselves, but when you tally them up and weight them by
population, what`s going to happen to the nation as a whole.

HAYES: That is fascinating. Here`s what I think is so interesting, Joan,
we`re basically getting what you – you can never convince someone to run a
natural experiment in a big high stakes election, which one side didn`t
campaign and one side did to study what the effects of a campaign are.

But you`re basically getting that. I mean, things might change in the 77
days, but it`s like,
the Clinton campaign, they`ve got 200 people in Ohio and they`ve spent all
this money on ads and Donald Trump has spent nothing.

So, we`re kind of going to get to see.

JOAN WALSH, THE NATION: Yeah. And that`s why I think – I mean, I
personally believe – and you know full disclosure, my daughter is a
regional organizer for Hillary Clinton.

HAYES: Right. She`s doing this work. Work my brother did for years.

WALSH: Maybe it`s meaningless. Maybe it all means nothing.

HAYES: Well, we are going to find out.

WALSH: We are going to find out.

But I mean, that`s why I`m so confident that state polls are more reliable,
as Harry said, and also that the gaps could be bigger because the ground
game that she has in Ohio, in North Carolina, in Virginia is really
formidable. And he`s doing almost nothing.

We heard about the 12-year-old who is running an office for Donald Trump in

I mean, god bless 12 year-olds. I think it`s great, we like youth. But,

I mean, political scientists will have a lot to study and maybe we`ll all
learn that it doesn`t matter. But I don`t think so.

HAYES: Well, let`s take a look because you raise this, and it is the sort
of best curio of the day
from the campaign. Here is the aforementioned 12-year-old running a county
for Donald Trump. Take a look.


UNIDENITIFIED MALE: In one of the most important elections of our

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand you signed up to volunteer for the Trump

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In one of the most important counties for the state…


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Donald Trump campaign is relying on 12-year-old
Weston Aymer (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am the co-chair for the Jefferson County Trump

UNIDENITIFIED MALE: We found him Friday putting the final touches on the
Jefferson County field office, opening tomorrow in Wheatridge (ph), a place
where volunteers will gather to get out the vote.


HAYES: That`s a real news report, I just want to be clear.

So, one thing we should note, Harry, is that – you do have a situation in
which the state parties are running a lot of the field operation, right?
So, it`s not like there`s no one knocking on doors in the state of Georgia,
it`s not like there`s no voter contact happening in the state of North
Carolina, it`s just
not that being done for the campaign, it`s possible the state parties do
enough of that they sort of, you know, can replace it.

ENTEN: Right. There`s a real question of what is the minimal level. Have
they reached it? I should point out, of course, Jefferson County I believe
is where South Park takes place. So, it feels like this is almost out of
South Park, this entire campaign.

But I do wonder whether or not the state parties can do enough. It`s going
to be very clear, it`s very clear right now, that the Clinton campaign is
just vastly out organizing.

I do believe that the state polls that do show Hillary Clinton doing better
than she`s doing
nationally may be a reflection of that at this point.

HAYES: Yeah, right. That is the big question. There`s also the fact that
we`ve seen now – you know, they pulled out of Virginia and Colorado. And
once you start doing the state math – and those numbers, one interesting
task for me was we are going to see collapse when they pull their ad money
out of those two states. So far they haven`t seen it.

WALSH: Right. And it`s only ad money, they haven`t pulled their
organizers out.

HAYES: Very good points. Excellent piont.

In fact, Robby Mook was just in Colorado making calls.

WALSH: Right. They`re absolutely still working in those states. But ad
buying is drying up.

HAYES: Yeah. And now the question becomes do we see the move of ad money
into Arizona and Georgia, which is the sort of like would show the most
confident projection?

WALSH: And expanding the map. The things that the Obama team said they
were going to do in 2012 didn`t quite do but, you know, four years later.

HAYES: They started to in 2008 with Georgia.

WALSH: Right.

HAYES: They had sort of staffed up Georgia very early on, but had sort of
been beaten back in retreat when the polling didn`t materialize.

ENTEN: If they can move in to Arizona – we know that the senate polling
there is relatively close. John McCain is running a little bit ahead. But
that could be a state where they put another state another race on the map,
especially as Ohio has been shifting away from Ted Strickland. If they can
put Arizona on the map, that`s just another way that you can get the 50
seats you need if Hillary clinton wins the presidency.

And obviously if you have the Senate, makes confirming a supreme court
justice that much easier.

HAYES: Are we seeing polling – do we have good metric for tracking what
advertising is doing to polling here? Because one thing that occurred to
me also is there`s a lot of ads that have been dropped in these key
battleground states that maybe those are having a real effect as well,
particularly because it`s so one-sided.

WALSH: Already, yeah.

ENTEN: I would say, you know, when you see a state like New Hampshire,
which had been much closer before the convention and all of a sudden
Hillary Clinton is jumping out to a huge lead there, and Donald Trump in
his initial advertising buy isn`t even going into New Hampshire.

This to me is a real sign that this stuff may in fact be working.

HAYES: That`s really interesting.

WALSH: And it is so limited.

HAYES: It is so limited.

And also the ads have been so devastating.

Yes, four states in that first initial buy.

WALSH; That`s not going to work.

HAYES: All right, Joan Walsh, Harry Enten, thanks for joining us, good to
have you.

That is ALL IN for this evening.


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