All In With Chris Hayes, Transcript, 7/13/2016

Guests:
Keith Ellison, Cornell Belcher, Anita Dunn, Molly Ball, Nick Confessore
Transcript:

Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES
Date: July 13, 2016
Guest: Keith Ellison, Cornell Belcher, Anita Dunn, Molly Ball, Nick
Confessore

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN –

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: This man is the
nominee of the Party of Lincoln. We are watching it become the Party of
Trump.

HAYES: After a week of escalating racial tension, Clinton calls Trump
ignorant and dangerous.

CLINTON: His campaign is as divisive as any we have seen in our lifetimes.

HAYES: We`ll look at her attack strategy as polls tighten in some swing
states.

Then, Trump meets with his V.P. finalists.

NEWT GINGRICH (R), FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: It`s a little bit like the
apprentice.

HAYES: But as he selects his latest team member, news he`s seeking
millions in legal damages from a former aide.

Plus –

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: She didn`t earn the nickname
Notorious RBG for nothing.

HAYES: Trump`s response to Justice Ginsburg`s criticism. Spoiler alert,
he doesn`t take the high road.

And one rogue tenor`s all-star fail.

When ALL IN starts right now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

With polls showing racial tensions reaching new highs and the country
reeling from a week of violence and pain that expose said raw differences
between Americans, Hillary Clinton today went to the old state capital in
Springfield, Illinois, where nearly 160 years ago, Abraham Lincoln
proclaimed that a house divided against itself cannot stand, to give a
speech about race and division that doubles as a full-out assault on the
politics of racial white grievance that are inseparable from Donald Trump`s
presidential campaign.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: His campaign is as divisive as any we have seen in our lifetimes.
It is built on stoking mistrust and pitting American against American.
It`s there in everything he says and everything he promises to do as
president. This man is the nominee of the Party of Lincoln. We are
watching it become the party of Trump.

And that`s not just a huge loss for our democracy. It is a threat to it,
because Donald Trump`s campaign adds up to an ugly, dangerous message to
America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Trump has actually been, by the standards of Donald Trump,
relatively restrained in his reaction to last week`s events. But even when
Trump is moderating his rhetoric in an attempt to seem more, quote-unquote,
“presidential”, even when he seems to be trying to reach out to African-
Americans, he ends up, as Clinton pointedly noted today, making it all
about himself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL O`REILLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: There is still some black Americans who
believe that the system is biased against them. What do you say to them?

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Well, I`ve been
saying, even against me, the system is rigged. When I ran as a – well,
for president, I could see what was going on with the system, and the
system is rigged.

What I`m saying is they`re not necessarily wrong. I mean, there are
certainly people where unfortunately that comes into play. And I`m not
saying that, I can really relate it very much to myself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Trump is also returning to one of his signature tactics,
fabricating events to demonize his political opponents and push for his
agenda. Trump has previously claimed for instance that thousands of New
Jersey Muslims were seen on television celebrating the September 11th
attacks, a claim that flies in the face of all evidence PolitiFact could
find or anyone else for that matter.

Last night in two different appearances, he was at it again, this time
regarding the man who murdered five police officers in Dallas.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The maniac that some people asked for a moment of silence, for him,
for the killer! For the killer.

When somebody called for a moment of silence for this maniac that shot the
five police, you know, you just see what`s going on, and it`s a very, very
sad situation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: As TPM notes, there is no evidence this moment of silence ever
happened. Even Trump aide Sam Clovis admitted he`s seen no evidence of a
moment of silence for the shooter.

Last night, House Speaker Paul Ryan who has at time criticized Trump but
has also endorsed him was asked how he can support a man like Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTIONER: It concerns me when the Republican leadership is supporting
somebody who is openly racist and has said Islamophobic statements, wants
to shut down our borders. How can – can you tell me, how can you morally
justify your support for this kind of candidate, somebody who can be very
destructive for our country?

REP. PAUL RYAN (R-WI), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Well, first of all, a few
things, that basically means you`re going to help elect Hillary Clinton,
and I don`t think Hillary Clinton is going to support any of the things
that you stand for if you`re a Republican.

I`m going to go fight for the principles and the solutions that I believe
in and the candidate that I think is so much more likely to put those into
law because I know Hillary Clinton won`t do that. It`s a binary choice.
It is either Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton.

You don`t get a third option. It`s one or the other. And I know where I
want to go.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: It`s that attitude among conservatives and Republicans and no
matter what outrageous thing Trump says or does, or how he comports
himself, that Hillary Clinton is automatically no matter what, somehow
worse, that is probably a large part of what is keeping this race as close
as it is.

The latest national poll shows Trump within three points of Clinton and a
slew of new battleground polls show a tight race in key states, with Trump
with a small edge in Florida, and the candidates tied in Ohio.

Joining me now is Democratic Representative Keith Ellison of Minnesota, an
early Bernie Sanders supporter who today endorsed Hillary Clinton. So, you
know a thing or two about binary choices.

Let me start with that – I thought that was such a good question to Paul
Ryan. You have said he has said racist things. He has comported himself
in a racist manner. How can you support him? Paul Ryan says, yes, but
otherwise it`s Hillary Clinton. What`s your reaction as someone who has to
work with Paul Ryan? That`s a colleague of yours.

REP. KEITH ELLISON (D), MINNESOTA: You know, I like Paul Ryan, and to a
certain extent, I feel bad for him. But this is a moment of moral choice.
And if he says that Hillary Clinton is worse than a openly racist, Muslim-
hating misogynist who wants to build a wall to exclude Mexicans, who thinks
that a judge, an American judge because of his Mexican lineage cannot be
fair to him, if you`re saying that Hillary Clinton is worse than all that,
then I just think that that just is ridiculous, it`s absurd, and it really
starts to damage the speaker`s credibility.

And I don`t say that easily, because I think that, you know, Paul Ryan, you
know, could be a great leader for our country. But I think that he is in a
moral choice moment, and so far, he`s choosing wrong.

HAYES: You know, I wanted to go through some of the polling on race in the
country right now, because obviously, you know, race and – is always a
subtext in American politics, sometimes it`s just right out there in front
and it sort of fluctuates. In the era of Obama, it`s been impossible to
avoid, in any day. It`s probably true for the country`s entire history.
Polls showing Americans worried a great deal about race relations has
spiked, recently, particularly in the wake of the Black Lives Matter
movement.

Percentage of Americans who view race relations as generally bad, today,
it`s 69 percent, last year, it was 38 percent.

So, how do you – you`re someone who represent black, white citizens,
people of color, people of all faiths. How do you think about this – the
politics of this in this particular moment?

ELLISON: You know, this is a moment where leaders just have to call for
human solidarity. We have to focus on what we all share. So, when I go
back to the fifth congressional district of Minnesota, which is Minneapolis
and the suburbs around it, including St. Anthony, by the way, I talk to
constituents about what matters to them most. And I listen to them.

What I hear people talking about are things that anybody of any color or
any religion or any sexual orientation can get with. They cannot earn a
decent living if they`re working class folks. They`re worried about
retirement if they`re in their 40s and 50s. They`re worried about sending
their kids to college. If we focus on what really matters, we can get
there.

Now, you have to talk about the issue of race, but I can talk to white
constituents about racism, if I at least acknowledge that life is not a
crystal stair for them either.

HAYES: Right.

ELLISON: So if I say, look –

HAYES: You`re not giving them a long lesson in their privilege in those
interactions.

ELLISON: Right, right. Well, how do you go to somebody white looking at a
foreclosure of their home and tell them that it`s worse for African
Americans. They`re like, well, maybe so, but I`m the one looking at being
homeless. So, you better – you got to talk to people about the fact that
all Americans, of all colors, this economy`s not working for any of us.
And, you know, the fact is, yes, statistically, African Americans and
Latinos are getting hit harder, but it`s something that we can have real
solidarity across racial lines on, to raise the minimum wage, to lower the
cost of going to college, to make sure there`s real consumer protection.

This is – we have a chance for racial solidarity because all of us, unless
you`re in the top 1 percent, are really struggling in this economy. Like
you take for example the environmental movement is a big deal in my
district. You know, you might say, yeah, more African Americans are
suffering from asthma and air pollution-related illnesses, but there`s a
lot of white folks, a lot of white kids with inhalers.

So, you just got to talk to the reality of everyone, not exclude anyone.
And make sure that people know that you care about them too. I think if
you do that, we can get there.

HAYES: All right. Representative Keith Ellison, always a pleasure to talk
to you. Thank you for your time.

ELLISON: Yes, sir.

HAYES: All right. Joining me now, Democratic pollster Cornell Belcher,
president of Brilliant Corners Research and Strategies, and Anita Dunn,
who`s a senior adviser to President Obama`s 2008 campaign and served as
White House communications director for the Obama administration.

Anita, let me start with you. The speech today by Hillary Clinton, which I
thought was quite good, you know, she is trying to do this very difficult
thing which is, of course, to try to re-create the Obama coalition, which
is a coalition that knits together a minority white voters and massive
majority of all other voters to form a majority and she`s doing it as a
person who is going to succeed the first black president.

ANITA DUNN, FORMER OBAMA WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Well, she
also is running to be the first woman ever elected president, and I think
if you look at recent polling, you see that that gender gap is really
widening. Not the least of which because of Donald Trump and what he
stands for and everything he has said. No, it`s an interesting dynamic
right now.

Hillary Clinton in the last week has addressed character issues, not by
going out to talk about character issues, but showing her character, going
out and at this time of great divisiveness and unrest in our country, you
know, talking about what we need to do to move forward. I think, you know,
we always tell candidates, show, don`t tell, what you`re all about. I
think her speech today was an important speech that people are going to
look at and they`re going to see not just the attacks on Donald Trump, but
also her admission that maybe she`d been part of the polarization problem
as well and she could do better.

HAYES: So, that is – Cornell, that to me is what continues to be so
striking about the polling data we`re seeing. I mean, here you got someone
– this is someone who basically isn`t running – in Donald Trump, isn`t
running a campaign by any standard of anyone else, 50 employees to 800,
he`s spent zero dollars on ads to tens of millions. OK? He has said
things that have offended every different group, many different groups of
the country.

And you know, it`s a 4.5 point ball game at this point. And just the
gravitational force of that polarization, we are getting to see just how
powerful it is up close.

CORNELL BELCHER, DEMOCRATIC POLLSTER: No, if you are the Clinton campaign,
there has to be some concern here for Democrats across the board. When you
do see that we Democrats are spending money and running, I think, a fairly
good campaign, and you see the public polling that`s out today, you know,
she`s not pulling ahead. And she`s still running behind sort of Obama`s
performance numbers.

But what she`s doing right now, I think, is important. She is defining
him. And one thing we know about politics, if you get to define your
opponent, you`re probably going to beat your opponent. I think she`s done
a very good job of defining him. I think he`s helped along the way with
that, you know?

And to that speaker who was given a question to Speaker Ryan earlier – I
mean, I hear the same thing in focus groups all the time, with young voters
who rejected Donald Trump because they see him as a racist. And one young
woman referred to him as KKK. But the problem has with some of that Obama
coalition, their disqualification of Donald Trump has not automatically
meant they move and support Hillary Clinton. So, she still has to turn a
corner here and I think give them something to vote for, which I got a
feeling she will start to do here fairly shortly.

HAYES: A huge part of the fluctuation we`re seeing in the polling is post
him wrapping up the election. He`s sort of gone around 39, 40, 41 percent,
that`s basically the floor for a general – for a major party nominee.

DUNN: The floor.

HAYES: Right. It`s her that`s sort of moved up and down, right? I think
the e-mail story last week, extremely careless in people`s minds, has been
part of what`s been difficult for her to pull ahead.

DUNN: Well, you know, Chris, I think that`s a huge part of it. What we
have coming up, though, is we have the two conventions. There are really
three places during this process where people`s attention is focused on
kind of leadership issues, vice presidential selection, conventions and
debates. The convention is the opportunity to kind of tell America what
you are about.

I think going to Cornell`s point, which I totally agree with, it is not
going to be enough to disqualify Donald Trump, who does a pretty darn good
job of that on a daily –

HAYES: Right, because he can`t sink below 39 or 40.

DUNN: But she does need to go out there and tell people what she`s about.
I think the convention will be the beginning of that process.

HAYES: Cornell, I want you to react this the beginning of this person`s
speech, where she talks about imaging yourself as a Trump supporter. Take
a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: Let`s put ourselves in the shoes of Donald Trump`s supporters.
We may disagree on the causes and the solutions to the challenges we face.
But I believe, like anyone else, they`re trying to figure out their place
in a fast-changing America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: What`s your reaction to that?

BELCHER: I think the fast-changing America is something that is gripping a
lot of middle America. And I think part of that fast-changing America is
the demographics.

HAYES: Right.

BELCHER: I mean, to your point, Chris, we have a president in Barack Obama
who got – who is the first president to ever win that office with such a
low percentage of the white voters. And, look, in a decade, two decades,
you`re talking about a close to 50/50 country. So there`s a lot of
anxiousness out there. And I think that`s where most of Donald Trump`s
support rests, in that anxiousness.

Democrats need to give voice to that anxiousness. One of the things you
see going on at the same time is voters, top-tier issue concern, rising
about the division in our politics. So, that`s a place for opportunity, I
think.

HAYES: I had a thought today, wasn`t it crazy that period of time when a
bunch of people convinced us the most pressing issue in America was the
deficit. That seems really odd. That seems like another universe right
now and seemed preposterous at times for me.

Cornell Belcher and Anita Dunn, thanks to you both.

All right. Still to come, with the Republican convention just five days
away, organizers are $6 million short of their budget, speakers` list is
still TBD. More on that ahead.

But, first, why is Donald Trump seeking $10 million from a former campaign
aide?

Plus, an update on the search for Trump`s V.P. That story right after this
two-minute break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: We have just learned that Donald Trump will announce his V.P. pick
on Friday in New York, according to campaign manager Paul Manafort. This
news coming on the same day Trump is demanding $10 million in damages from
a former campaign staffer, accusing him of trying to spread suggestive
rumors about senior campaign staff.

The legal claim first reported by the “Associated Press” is against former
senior campaign consultant Sam Nunberg, who was fired last year. The
arbitration claim alleges Nunberg leaked confidential information to
reporters in violation of a nondisclosure agreement. NBC News has
confirmed that in return, Nunberg has asked the judge to block Trump from
pursuing a legal claim against him.

Meanwhile, Trump`s lawyers are fighting to keep Trump`s videotape testimony
in a lawsuit about Trump University, which many have accused to being
fraudulent from being released. A decision that is left up to, and you
probably remember this name, U.S. District Judge Gonzalo Curiel, the one
who Trump has said poses a conflict of interest because of his, quote,
“Mexican heritage,” since, you know, Trump is building a wall.

A couple of hours ago, Curiel delayed his ruling on whether to release the
testimony and did not say when he would make a decision.

All of this is happening just days before the GOP`s convention, while Trump
has spent the day in Indiana, trying to narrow down candidates for running
mate. He met with Indiana Governor Mike Pence, Newt Gingrich, Alabama
Senator Jeff Sessions, while Trump`s oldest children met with Chris
Christie yesterday.

Joining me now, Howard Dean, former chair of the Democratic National
Committee, MSNBC political analyst, who is supporting Hillary Clinton for
president.

Howard, you`ve been in politics a long time. Have you ever heard of the
principle essentially initiating legal action against the staffer mid
campaign for $10 million?

HOWARD DEAN, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: The answer is no, but this is so
classic Trump. Trump has used lawsuits as a weapon throughout his entire
business career, and whether they`re frivolous or not has nothing to do
with any of it. What he knows is if he can sue somebody for $10 million,
that somebody, especially if it`s a consultant is not likely to have the
money to defend it. So, then it goes away as long as he signs a non-
disclosure act agreement and so on and so forth.

This is so classic Donald Trump.

HAYES: It is also – I mean, remember, we recall here that it`s the
lawsuit against Trump University that has precipitated his week-long rant
against the ethnic heritage of the American judge who is presiding over it,
which is probably his campaign`s low point. Being immersed in a whole
bunch of ongoing legal matters is part of who he is, but also can be quite
politically damaging.

DEAN: I agree. And I was chortling to myself as you were playing the
video, the pictures of the judge and Trump. So, here`s Trump`s tactic: he
slanders the judge and goes after his ethnic heritage, then he says he
can`t give him a fair trial because he slandered him and gave him his
ethnic heritage. I think the judge is thinking over this pretty carefully.
Obviously, he didn`t want to get reversed. No judge does.

My hope is, for the sake of the judicial system, he`ll slam Trump as he
deserves to be in this case. But your basic point, this is not a good
thing for any candidate. On the other hand, this is a candidate who seems
not to be able to – not to have to apply any of the rules that normally
you apply in campaigns to himself.

HAYES: So you`ve got now, it looks like the field has been narrowed,
right, for this V.P. position. You`ve got Mike Pence, governor of Indiana,
who seems sort of the most traditional. It`s little interesting to Jeff
Sessions, the senator from Alabama came in, he`s an early supporter, and
then you got Christie and Newt Gingrich.

How do you think this decision should be made, whether or not, how he`s
making it?

DEAN: You know, I can`t tell you, because first of all, I don`t know how
he`s making it. I know Newt fairly well. He`s very funny about this. At
one point he said, yes, I don`t expect to be vetted, because he`ll probably
make up his mind on a whim with a day to go.

Who knows? I mean, this guy is totally unorthodox. Maybe he`s flipping
coins or playing three-card Monty to see who he wants to pick.

HAYES: You know, we got some news today that Sean Hannity chartered a
flight for Newt to visit Trump in Indiana, which I thought was a sort of
the perfect singularity of everything. Like, Hannity`s on his air being
like, I`m really going to be disappointed if it`s not Newt Gingrich. Now,
he`s flying Newt Gingrich to Indiana where Trump`s plane broke down, which
is why they`re meeting in Indiana, to make sure he gets his audition.

DEAN: Yes, I mean, you know, we`ll find out on Friday. This is too
difficult to handicap. Trump is so unorthodox that I think it`s almost
impossible to have any reasonable prediction about who he`s going to pick.

HAYES: Do you think that there`s – I mean, one of the interesting
political science results we got out of 2008, was that the Sarah Palin
choice actually really did hurt McCain, that there were points that came
off him, which is a rare thing to happen in either direction. There is
actual downside risk if you pick the wrong person, but it doesn`t seem like
any of these people will be that for Trump.

DEAN: I think that`s probably right. What McCain didn`t realize was that
Sarah Palin was his demographic. He thought he was appealing to younger
women, and in fact, Sarah Palin appealed to people who were like McCain,
old white guys, who thought she was sexy to skin a moose. That was a
miscalculation, it didn`t work. They didn`t do the vetting, they didn`t do
the polling.

I doubt Trump`s done polling either, but I do think he probably wants a
more establishment person so he can connect and have a dialogue with these
people he`s offending every single day in his own party.

HAYES: I`m personally rooting for Gingrich because I think they`ll be the
most entertaining. Howard Dean, thanks for joining us. I appreciate it.

DEAN: Thanks, Chris.

HAYES: Still to come, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg isn`t backing down from
her criticism of Trump, and Trump is rapidly escalating his attacks on
Justice Ginsburg, as you might imagine. The latest on that after this
short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: It`s pretty rare that politicians, much less the speaker of the
House, are asked to remark on comments made by a sitting Supreme Court
justice, comments that have nothing to do with that justice`s official
capacity. The justice in question in this case is Ruth Bader Ginsburg. It
was not part of lawyers arguing before the court or part of the Ginsburg
majority or dissenting opinion. They were instead just interviews about
Donald Trump.

And Justice Ginsburg`s comments got some pretty pointed criticism of the
presumptive Republican nominee for president.

So, House Speaker Paul Ryan was asked to respond.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RYAN: I find it very peculiar, and I think it`s out of place for an
appointed branch of government. That shows bias to me.

Now, those of us who are in the elected branch of government, who get
elected to things, I think that`s perfectly in the realm. But for someone
on the Supreme Court, who is going to be calling balls and strikes in the
future, based upon whatever the next president and Congress does, that
strikes me as inherently biased and out of the realm. I don`t think that -
- I think that`s something she should not have done. I don`t think that
shows she intends on being impartial in the future.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest was also asked about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Does the White House have any concerns about that kind of
language from a Supreme Court justice, or feel that it`s appropriate for
her to be making those kinds of – opining in that way about the
presidential election?

EARNEST: Well, Josh, she didn`t earn the nickname Notorious RBG for
nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Eye roll.

So, what did Justice Ginsburg say about Donald Trump? We`ll tell you next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PAUL RYAN, (R-WI) SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: I don`t think it was good for
him, and I don`t think it`s
something that a Supreme Court judge should do given the fact that they`re
probably going to be facing some kind of decision in the future. And this
clearly calls into question her bias.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: So, Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg isn`t mincing words
when it comes to Donald Trump. She`s drawn criticism from Trump and other
Republicans, but also the Washington Post and New York Times editorial
boards.

In an interview with the Times, Ginsburg said, “I can`t imagine what this
place would be, I can`t
imagine what the country would be with Donald Trump as our president. For
the country, it could be
four years, for the court it could be, I don`t even want to contemplate
that.”

She added that her late husband would have said, “now it`s time for us to
move to New Zealand.”

Justice Ginsburg made similar comments about a Trump presidency to the
Associated Press: “I don`t want to think about the possibility, but if it
should be, then everything is up for grabs.”

That`s not all, most recently as Monday, Ginsburg said this: “he`s a faker.
He has no consistency about him. He says whatever comes to his head at the
moment. He really has an ego. How has he gotten away with not turning
over his tax returns? The press seems to be gentle on him for that.”

So, no surprise that Trump himself responded, telling the Times, “I think
it`s highly inappropriate a United States Supreme Court judge gets involved
in the campaign, frankly. I think it`s a disgrace to the court and I think
she should apologize to the court. I couldn`t believe it when I saw it.”

Then he literally went in for it on Twitter, “Justice Ginsburg of the U.S.
Supreme Court has embarrassed all by making very dumb political statements
about me. Her mind is shot. Resign.”

And this: “is Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg going to apologize
to me for her misconduct? Big mistake by an incompetent judge.”

And this: “if I win the presidency, we will swamp Justice Ginsburg with
real judges and real legal opinions.”

Even went so far in an interview as to question her mental faculties.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: For her to come out and to say the kind of things, there`s almost
something wrong with her. I don`t think anybody`s ever seen that before.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So are you questioning her mental capacity?

TRUMP: Yeah, I think I am. I think I`m questioning perhaps her mental
capacity, yeah.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Sure, why not, I`ll do it.

Joining me now, MSNBC national report Irin Carmon, co-author of the best-
selling book “Notorious RBG: Life and Times of Ruth Bader Ginsburg,” an RBG
expert.

What is going on? Here`s – so, tell me this, you know her better than I
do. You have a bit of a personal relationship with her. You`ve written a
book about her. The first time I read the first interview, I was like, oh,
I guess she just kind of got out over her skis or she – but like she`s now
done this two more times. Like she wants to attack Donald Trump.

IRIN CARMON, MSNBC NATIONAL REPORTER: My experience of her, she does not
get out over her skis. She is extremely deliberate in every public
pronouncement.

I think it needs to be seen in the context of someone who has played by the
very rules she si being criticized for violating. She`s been playing by
those rules her entire career. She`s an institutionalist. She believes in
the norms of the constitution, of the court. She has all of the high-
minded ideals that we`re seeing invoked right now to criticize her.

And I believe, based on her statements, that she is incandescently furious
about the normalization of Donald Trump, because he stands as an affront to
everything that she has worked for her entire life, including respected
norms, including respecting the judiciary, including civil rights and
including her commitment to feminism.

And I think that that has made her so angry, that she`s broken from
anything, any sort of precedent to put it in a legal way, that has ever
existed before.

HAYES: Right. I mean, I think…

CARMON: …of hers.

HAYES: His response is not surprising at all. I mean, we will swamp her
with opinions – I don`t even know what that means.

CARMON: It`s interesting verb usage there. I don`t know what the swamp is
there.

HAYES: that`s not surprising.

But I think, yeah, right – I mean, we`ve seen Ruth Bader Ginsburg now in
public life and particularly on the court for a long time. And this is not
– Scalia would occasionally say a thing that was sort of controversial
when he went and talked to some students…

CARMON: Clarence Thomas went on Rush Limbaugh.

HAYES: Clarence Thomas went on Rush Limbaugh. There was, of course, also
the Scalia duck hunt with Vice President Cheney in 2002.

CARMON: Sat at the Fox News table at the White House Correspondents
Dinner.

HAYES: Exactly. So there have been politicization. I think it`s
surprising it`s coming from her.

And I do think – the point Ryan makes – the things I wonder is, look, if
we had a Bush v. Gore situation, this – it doesn`t create any tangible
problem, because justices can do whatever they want, but it does create
political and perception problems.

CARMON: Right.

And I do think, you know, we`re hearing from some of the people who admire
her who wish that she had maybe been more specific in her critique.

But again, I think that this is a product of how angry and upset she is.
And she believes that extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures.

I want to point out to you that she`s usually the master of the sub-tweet.
She is not somebody who levies insults against people lightly.

HAYES: Right, right.

In her opinions, particularly, you can tell who it`s at, but it`s just up
to the – right.

CARMON: It`s very polite.

She was close friends with Scalia. And when she was asked about it, she
would talk about how this shows we can disagree without being disagreeable.

She`s out there calling Trump a faker. She`s not treating him like a
polite adversary, because clearly she doesn`t think he merits it. And she
thinks the risk is very great.

HAYES: Well, and also she clearly thinks that if he wins, it`s all gone,
like basically the eventuality of him winning is so cataclysmic that
there`s just no – it`s like some inverse Pascal`s wager. Like I might as
well just say what I believe, because lord all-mighty if he wins, the house
is on fire.

CARMON: Right.

HAYES: I do think – it is – it`s going to be interesting, also. I just
want to remind people, when we talk about the norms of the court, that
there`s 120 days into a nominee who has not even gotten a hearing, which is
a pretty egregious violation of of a really important norm, which is advise
and consent. this has never happened before, at least not in recent times.

CARMON: Justice Ginsburg talks all the time about how the Senate vote to
confirm her was 97-3, that obviously included many Republicans.

Yes, it was a Democratic-controlled senate and a Democratic president who
appointed her, but Orrin Hatch note – I noticed Orrin Hatch did not
condemn her this week. He was her grand champion on Judiciary.

So those norms are gone too.

The norms in which a president a year before the end of his term nominates
someone and the Senate holds a hearing, judiciary holds a hearing and the
senate votes, those norms are long since gone.

And I think – I`ve always thought – I have not discussed this with her,
but I have long thought that that is a deep affront to how she thinks the
judiciary should function. What is more politicizing than saying, quote,
as Mitch McConnell said the American people have to decide.

That`s not an independent judiciary if you`re putting it up to a vote.

HAYES: Irin Carmon, thank you very much.

CARMON: Thank you.

HAYES: Still to come, as the Republican convention faces a slew of
logistical problems from speakers to fundraising to protests, new signs
today the stop Trump effort may be within striking distance of, at the very
least, making it interesting. Don`t go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(SINGING)

HAYES: Thing one tonight, performing the national anthem in front of a
large crowd is not easy. The Star Spangled Banner has tripped up many an
entertainer. As you just heard, sometimes the lyrics are difficult to
remember.

Now, our kinder, gentler neighbors to the north have perhaps a less
demanding national anthem to sing, but they, too, have a history of botched
performance. Canadians, they`re just like us.

And now they can add a new entry to that list. Last night, before Major
League Baseball`s all-star`s game in San Diego, this group of gentlemen, a
Candian quartet known as The Tenors were invited to sing “O Canada.”

Everything was going swimmingly until about the fourth line into the song.

(SINGING)

HAYES: If you`re not familiar with the Canadian National Anthem, I`ll
spare you the tease and
just tell you right now, those are not the lyrics to the Canadian National
Anthem.

A quasi-explanation as to why the anthem was altered in thing two, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: That`s the Romegio Pereira (ph) of the Canadian quartet The Ttenors
altering the
lyrics to the Canadian National Anthem before last night`s baseball All-
Star game. “We`re all brothers and sisters. All lives matter to the
great.” Pereira (ph) sang, instead of the lyric, “glowing hearts, we see
thee rise the truth north strong and free.”

The rogue tenor also held up a handwritten sign that read “United We
Stand,” and “All
Lives Matter” a refrain which is sometimes used to essentially undermine
the message beyind Black Lives Matter.

As you can see Pereira (ph) caught the other tenors by surprise during his
solo. They continued on singing the anthem in French.

Not surprisingly, the group received backlash from their fellow Canadians
for failing at both national anthem performance and political protest.

The group apologized for Pereira (ph) altering the lyrics and inserting a
political and what
many consider a dismissive statement in its place, called Pereira`s (ph)
actions selfish, noting the other members of the group were shocked and
embarrassed by the incident. And here I`m quoting, “the tenors are deeply
sorry for the disrespectful and misguided lack of judgment by one member of
the group acting as a lone wolf.”

The group says that Pereira (ph) will not perform until further notice.
The singer released an audio statement noting black lives do matter and
tweeted he had hoped for a positive statement that
would bring us all together.

“That was my singular motivation when i said all lives matter.”

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: Five, count them, five days until the Republican convention kicks
off in Cleveland. I will, of course, be there. Organizers are still $6
million short of their budget for the big event while the host committee
managed to raise around $50 million earlier in the primary cycle, according
to Cleveland.com, they`ve only brought in about $1 million since Donald
Trump became the presumptive nominee in early May.

Trump`s candidacy isn`t just hurting fundraising, most of the GOP`s elder
statesmen are staying away from the convention, including its past two
presidential – past two presidents and presidential nominees.

As Politico reported this week, many of the operatives who form the
lifeblood of the party are dreading what`s usually a big party. One
strategist telling the publication, and I`m quoting here, “I would rather
attend the public hanging of a good friend.”

It`s now been a week since Trump said he would be releasing his list of
convention speakers, and still with just a few days left until the thing
starts, there`s no sign of an official lineup.

Today, Arkansas Senator Tom Cotton confirmed he`d be speaking at some point
while former New York Mayor Rudy Guiliani is reportedly set to speak as
early as Monday night.

They join the small group whose names have already managed to trickle out,
including Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, House Speaker Paul Ryan,
and Trump`s family.

In the meantime, some of the convention`s all-important committees have
already started meeting in Cleveland. In Cleveland yesterday, the platform
committee signed off on changes to the Republican platform with a few nods
to the presumptive nominee, including new language to manage
better trade deals that, quote, “put America first,” and an immigration
plank calling for a physical wall along the southern border, and changing
the term illegal immigrant to illegal alien.

With a few exceptions, the platform lurched hard to the right, endorsing
quote, unquote, traditional marriage and rejecting any mention of the LGBT
people, encouraging public schools to teach the bible, and describing coal
as a clean energy source.

Now, tomorrow poses the last remaining hurdle in Donald Trump`s path to
formally accepting the Republican nomination. That`s because that is when
anti-Trump forces on the rules committee will try to pass a measure
unbinding GOP delegates, allowing them to vote their conscious instead of
following their state`s primary results.

According to an NBA news whip count, that stop Trump effort may be within
striking distance of forcing a big messy debate next week on the convention
floor.

And as chaotic as that could get, the real mess may be happening outside
the Quicken Loans Arena, protesting the convention in an open carry state
next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRANK JACKSON, MAYOR OF CLEVELAND: The law of the state of Ohio is we have
open carry, which means we`ll follow the law. If the law says people can
have open carry, that`s what it says.

Whether I agree with it or not is another issue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Now, no guns will be allowed inside the Republican convention,
which is, of course,
controlled by the secret service.

But outside the secure perimeter, in the rest of Cleveland, the laws of the
state of Ohio still apply, as you heard the mayor just say, which means
anyone who legally owns a gun can openly carry it in public. That includes
the 5,000 delegates, 15,000 journalists and countless other protesters and
interest groups already starting to descend on the city.

The Oathkeepers, a militant anti-government group told the New York Times
they`re planning to bring weapons with them, while the New Black Panther
Party, a somewhat fringe, militant group disowned by many of the original
Panthers`s founders, described by the Southern Poverty Law Center as anti-
Semitic, they say its members will be armed too.

Hundreds of law enforcement officials from around the country will be there
to keep the city secure. But in case that`s not enough, Bikers for Trump
says there will be on hand to help.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS COX, BOKERS FOR TRUMP: We are in a position if we need – if need be
to stand with and help protect the police from these…

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With your own guns.

COX: Well, I myself won`t be carrying a gun, but I can`t speak for the
rest of the guys. I know many bikers do carry concealed permits.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Well, if that weren`t troubling enough as environmentalist Bill
McKibbon tweeted today, “we`re expecting a massive and potentially record-
setting heat wave across America next week.”

Joining me now, Molly Ball, political correspondent for The Atlantic. And
Nick Confessore, political reporter for The New York Times and an MSNBC
contributor.

And Molly, since you`re there in Cleveland, how does it look, in terms of
where all these people
are going to go, because I know a lot of people, obviously people descend
on a place for a convention, but given the kind of atmosphere of frankly
really intense violence that`s happened this year in the United States, but
then also the violence that we`ve seen in some protests and Trump events,
what`s the physical lay-out feel like there?

MOLLY BALL, THE ATLANTIC: Well, look, even the barriers have not been set
up yet. The preparations are still in
relatively early stages, as far as the logistics. So, you know, what you
describe is certainly the potential for a combustible mix, but I don`t
think most of those people have landed yet.

I personally have been in the basement of the convention center watching
the platform committee meetings, and that has been peaceful, except for
rhetorically. But – so, yeah, the streets of Cleveland, there are no
signs of actual disturbance or gathering yet.

You don`t see people camped out here in preparation. I think that will all
be next week.

HAYES: Nick, you had a great piece in The New York Times today. And it
was sort of about – you know, it wasn`t new terrain. I mean, it`s about
the sort of white grievance and the Trump campaign, but it gets at a lot of
the things that we`ve seen in this campaign. And particularly one aspect
of the wrenching towards the middle of the discourse, what were extremely
fringe parts of American political life, avowed anti-Semites, avowed white
supremacists, those sorts of things.

NICHOLAS CONFESSORE, NEW YORK TIMES: It`s not that Trump has pulled them
in, it`s that he`s laid the groundwork. He set a predicate for a certain
kin of discussion by talking about Mexicans and Muslims and a Muslim ban
and talking about Black Lives Matter in the way that he has.

I think he has made people feel, and I`ve talked to them, but they say is
it`s OK to talk about the way I feel from now on. It`s OK to talk about
these things. And that in turn, has driven people towards – some people -
- towards a sense of whiteness as a political identity. And it`s normally
kind of submerged and subsumed in other things – patriotism, America.

He has encouraged people to think of themselves a little bit as kind of
their own special interest
group.

HAYES: Someone uses the phrase identity politics for white people.

CONFESSORE: Yeah, this is a white nationalist figure. And he`s delighted
by Trump. He says the fee that Trump has introduced millions of people to
our ideas in a way that they can grasp and flock to.

HAYES: And a lot of those people are going to be in Cleveland.

CONFESSORE: Yes, some number of them are. You know, the people you`re
talking about in the earlier segment, I mean are provocateurs in a real
way. You know, a lot of the people who were involved in the part that I`m
writing about, are online, they`re in obscure conferences. They`re
anonymous. They don`t really often have the courage to come out of the
shadows.

I`m very curious to see if we see that kind of combustion on the train of
the convention.

HAYES: Molly, you know, we`ve been talking so much. There`s been this
conversation, I think it`s been a useful one in many ways, about empathy,
right, and particularly in the wake of what was such a horrible week last
week, putting yourself in someone`s shoes.

And I have been obsessing over, if I was the person who was charged with
security for the Cleveland convention, given what happened last week, how
unbelievably impossible the task would seem in certain respects.

I mean, how is Cleveland going about preparing for this?

BALL: Well, I mean, we`ve seen the reports that they are preparing for a
very heavy security presence. I don`t know the details of the police
training and to what extent they`re going to make sure that the officers
try to deescalate whatever conflicts there are.

I think that we`ve seen in a lot of protests that have happened that that`s
a really important thing. And the police have a big role to play in how
these conflicts play out.

But, you know, as Nick was saying, we have no idea who is going to show up
for this thing. We have no idea what kind of anger is being unleashed.
We`re certainly seen in this campaign, and also in just the national events
of recent months how much seething anger is out there, and how the efforts
to
unify have been mostly temporary and not that well received.

So it will be interesting – I certain had a lot of my friends and
relatives tell me, be careful out there, other reporters bringing gas masks
and bulletproof vests and really taking precautions for what could be a
really scary situation and of course we hope it`s not.

HAYES: Yeah. I mean, I should say this.

Look, there was – you know, I remember there was 2004 Republicans in New
York, and there was a huge, huge amount of protests and demonstration. And
I think a lot have actually – the NYPD some things very well and some
things I think not well at all with a ton of arrests that they were unable
to justify later. In fact, a huge lawsuit from all that.

I mean, I think we should be clear about the fact is, there`s an important
kind of focusing role
of these conventions, in terms of public dissent. And it`s sort of also
important while the powers that be provide security that they provide a
platform and outlet for that.

CONFESSORE: Yeah, there`s nothing more American I think than the ability
to protest power in power under the protection of power in America. It`s
one of the great things you can do in this country. Not many places.

I will say, you know, the more radical adherents of open carry say that it
create politeness, that an armed society is a polite society.

Well, there`s a pretty good chance to see in Cleveland how polite these
protests are if both sides are armed.

HAYES: Yeah. And we should also make the point that even if the law
allows it, most people don`t go around – we have not had the cultural
shift or cultural sort of, you know, conversion that would be necessary for
that to be a sort of normal thing.

Molly Ball in Cleveland. I`ll see you in a little bit.

Molly and Nick Confessore, maybe I`ll see you there as well.

All right. That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow show starts
right now. Good evening, Rachel.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
BE UPDATED.
END

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