All In With Chris Hayes, Transcript, 7/11/2016

Guests:
Stuart Stevens, Dan Rather, Heidi Przybyla, DeRay Mckesson; Heather McGee; Eugene O`Donnell
Transcript:

Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES
Date: July 11, 2016
Guest: Stuart Stevens, Dan Rather, Heidi Przybyla, DeRay Mckesson; Heather
McGee; Eugene O`Donnell

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN –

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I am the law and order
candidate.

HAYES: Seven days from Cleveland.

GOV. MARY FALLIN (R), OKLAHOMA: I think he is trying to campaign as a
racial healer.

HAYES: The auditions for Trump`s veep continue.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think women have to be able to choose.

HAYES: Tonight, where the search stands amidst the chaotic convention
planning.

Then, my interview with the Black Lives Matter leader arrested in Baton
Rouge.

And as political backlash grows –

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NYC MAYOR: When you say Black Lives Matter, that`s
inherently racist.

HAYES: Tonight, what the Dallas police chief is getting right in the wake
of last shooting`s shooting.

CHIEF DAVID BROWN, DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT: We`re asking cops to do too
much in this country.

HAYES: Plus, the plans for Bernie to endorse Hillary.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It`s huge.

HAYES: And the Notorious RBG goes there on Donald Trump.

RUTH BADER GINSBURG, SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: What`s this all about?

HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

We`re looking at live pictures of protests around the country tonight just
under a week since Alton Sterling was killed by police in Louisiana, days
since the fatal shootings of Philando Castile during a traffic stop in
Minnesota, and also five police officers guarding a demonstration in Texas.

Today also marks exactly one week until the Republican convention in
Cleveland where the party will formally select its nominee for president,
and it`s coming at a time as you can tell, of crashing grief, anxiety,
tension, anger in this nation after what can only be described as a
traumatic week and after volatile and often dark year in politics unlike
anything we`ve ever seen at least in a long while.

Right now, a lot of people are looking for a leadership and a path forward
from this moment. So, next week presents a real opportunity for the GOP to
frame its vision for the future and reintroduce the public to its
presumptive nominee, Donald J. Trump.

But a week out, the convention still appears to be very much a work in
progress. Not too long ago, on July 2nd, Trump tweeted, “The speakers
slots at the Republican convention are totally filled with a long waiting
list of those that want to speak. Wednesday release.”

Wednesday rolled around, Trump tweeted that actually the speakers are
coming out the following Thursday. Now, it`s Monday night and still no
list. A handful of names were already public. “Politico” confirmed that
House Speaker Paul Ryan is officially set to address the convention,
joining Trump`s former rival Ted Cruz, Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker, and
Iowa Senator Joni Ernst, according to reporter for “The Boston Globe.”

Trump told GOP House members in a meeting last week, speakers will include
his wife, Melania, his daughter Ivanka, and golf legend, Jack Nicklaus.
While Nicklaus did endorse Trump last month, he said Mr. Nicklaus is
traveling internationally in the next couple of weeks, touching down in no
fewer than six countries. He will not be a attending any portion of the
RNC.

Like Nicklaus, most of the Republican Party`s elder statesmen aren`t
planning to attend the convention, much less speak, including the party`s
last two presidents, both named Bush, its two previous presidential
nominees Mitt Romney and John McCain. According to a tally from Talking
Points Memo, 16 GOP senators are skipping it including the most vulnerable
up for election, even John Kasich, Republican governor of Ohio, the state
that is hosting the convention, does not plan to set foot inside the arena.

One person we can expect to be there, Trump`s pick for vice president when
he told the “Washington Post” he was planning to announce in the next three
to four days. According to Trump, quote, “someone respected by the
establishment and liked by the establishment would be good for unification.
I do like unification of the Republican Party.”

Much more on Trump`s fateful choice later in the show. In the meantime, in
the meantime, the GOP`s platform committee started meeting today to
determine just what exactly what the party stands for. Among the issues
debated today, according to various reports, calling for reversal of the
Supreme Court decision on same sex marriage, rejecting two-state solutions
for Israelis and Palestinians, declaring online pornography a public health
crisis, and barring the use of food stamps to purchase junk food, which
according to “Times” Zeke Miller devolved into the debate as to what counts
as junk food, Oreos or chocolate-covered Oreos.

Reportedly, the platform committee is poised to endorse Trump`s border
which along which along with the Muslim ban was about as close as Trump has
come to sticking out a genuine policy position albeit one totally avoid of
practical details. According to prominent Trump backer and former Texas
Governor Rick Perry, Trump is not talking about a physical wall. Perry
told Snapchat in an interview, quote, “It`s a technological wall, it`s a
digital wall.”

A week before the convention, the candidate is still trying show he`s
capable of the gravitas expected of a major party`s standard bearer. After
his response to the Orlando massacre horrified much of the political class,
including many members of his own party, Trump`s reaction to the events in
the past week has been remarkably restrained by his standards. He made his
first extended comments on the subject in a scripted speech earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The attack on our Dallas police is an attack on our country. Our
whole nation is in mourning and will be for a very long time. At the same
time, the tragic deaths in Louisiana and Minnesota make clear that the work
must be done to insure and a lot of work that Americans feel that their
safety is protected. We have to do it. We have to get better – better,
sharper, smarter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Trump campaign even so far as released a copy of those remarks,
complete footnotes. But as unlike the candidate who shows up for the
campaign rallies and shoots from the hip, this version of Donald Trump was,
well, far less compelling to watch.

Joining me now, MSNBC political analyst, former RNC chairman, Michael
Steele, Stuart Stevens, chief strategist to the Romney campaign in 2012,
author of the new novel about a brokered convention, “The Innocent Have
Nothing to Fear.”

Maybe – I`ll start with you Stuart, because you`ve been through the
process. I mean, from the outside, this does not look like this – it
looks like people are scrambling, that`s the way it looks from the outside.
As someone who has experience, do you think that`s accurate?

STUART STEVENS, FORMER ROMNEY CAMPAIGN STRATEGIST: Sure. I don`t think
it`s determinative, though. As – Lorne Michaels used to have a sign up in
“Saturday Night Live” saying, the showing goes on not because it`s great,
because it`s 11:00 and it`s Saturday night. And they seemed to put on
pretty good shows.

I think this will work out in the wash. They will have better some
speakers than others. I think it will be okay.

HAYES: You don`t think there will be any serious – there`s a court ruling
today about these delegates unbound, there`s been this kind of steering of
some sort of coup movement, some sort of floor action. Do you think that`s
going to happen?

STEVENS: I have no idea. I was really surprised at the numbers of people
who are opened to not having Donald Trump, the number of delegates, how
close it was to those who want Donald Trump. It`s very tough to pull this
off, a kind of stage coup. But unless something really happens between now
and next Monday, I would doubt it would happen.

HAYES: Michael, I want to hone in on something. I was watching reporting
by the platform committee. And it occurred to me that you`ve got this guy
at the top of the ticket, whose policy ideas are fairly barebones. If I
were to say what Donald Trump stands for, the two things I would say is,
build a wall, Mexico pay for it, and the Muslim ban. I think those have
been the two sort of high profile.

If you go to his website, there`s a few others, U.S.-China trade reform.
But it just occurred to me, and this seems like a banal point, but a week
from the convention, the Republican Party nominee has no education policy,
zero, none. Like there`s all these areas normally the things a major party
candidate does checking the boxes that are total blanks to fill in.

MICHAEL STEELE, FORMER RNC CHAIRMAN: Yes. This is different. It`s one of
those feelings you get when you open up the Cracker Jack box and what is
this prize.

HAYES: Right.

STEELE: I think that`s what this convention in large is going to be. You
know, I agree with Stuart, there may be surprises. But I`m not going to
bet the house on it. Republicans will tend to be a little bit orderly
about these things. The platform committee is meeting.

I understand the TPP language is on its way out. “America first” language
is on its way in. So, Donald Trump is having his impact on the party.
He`s shaping the party and molding it.

Will there be some plank on education? I don`t know. The question is,
does it really matter in the overall scheme of things in the core message
that he`s been articulated? He hasn`t talked about education as a
substantive issue so far this campaign. Is there a real push for that?

HAYES: Well, Stuart, this occurs to me as I`ve been watching the
Democratic platform fight emerge, is that it seems the Democratic platform
from a political standpoint is essentially a free pass because Donald Trump
has shown no ability to prosecute a policy case against anyone. So, you
can imagine a candidate who could say this tuition plan will have these
unintended consequences, the $15 minimum wage at the national level, here,
I can marshal economic reasons why that might be a problem.

There`s – that doesn`t exist in this campaign. We are running a campaign
in the total absence of substantive policy debates.

STEVENS: Well, you know, I don`t think you get Donald Trump away from a
teleprompter, I don`t think he can put together five coherent sentences to
argue for policy. The Muslim ban is an absurd idea. How are you going to
tell who`s Muslim and not Muslim.

But, I`d say, you know, Cat Stevens shows up and says, you know, I`m not a
Muslim anymore, I`m a Quaker, what are you going to do? Ask him trivial
questions about William Penn? It`s an absurd idea and as Governor Perry
pointed out, the idea that we`re going to build this wall, much less Mexico
is going to pay for it, you know, some massive wall.

I mean, this is sort of silly stuff you throw out in small time primaries
that he skated on. I think the most important policy that Donald Trump has
hit on and seems really to believe is on trade.

HAYES: That`s right.

STEELE: Right.

STEVENS: And he`s for a 45 percent tariff, which no one`s ever been
before.

HAYES: Michael, this point about of sort of where we are on policy or lack
of policy, I mean, it gets to this question about what exactly the
Republican Party as party is running on this year, right? That`s part of
the issue. You have this cycle of senators out of there. You got this
platform fight, you got this sui generis character of Donald Trump, but
usually what the convention is, is partly kind of like this is message,
this is what our party stands for, it stands for A, B, C, D, is there going
to be any answer to that?

STEELE: You articulated that very well. Like, what? No.

But, Chris, here`s the rub. This has not been that election. This has not
been the election about policy, this has not been a big driver, really, on
either side.

I mean, the Democrats have focused more on it than Republicans have, for
sure, no doubts about that. But I`m very curious, as we roll into the
fall, will you marry up a campaign more Seinfeldian in the Trump campaign,
a whole lot of nothing. And then, the other side, Clinton campaign, here`s
my 12-point plan on fill in the blank –

HAYES: Yes.

STEELE: – where the public sides itself up because this has not been that
kind of election so far.

HAYES: I am just so curious to see how this shakes out, if the campaign
about nothing can continue or how long it can continue.

Michael Steele and Stuart Stevens, thank you both.

STEELE: All right.

STEVENS: Thank you.

HAYES: I`m joined now by former “CBS Evening News” anchor Dan Rather, now
managing editor and anchor of “Dan Rather Reports” on AXS TV.

Mr. Rather, you`ve covered more than a few conventions in your time. What
do you think about – what are you thinking as we go into these
conventions? There was a period everyone said conventions have become
essentially four-day infomercials, there`s no intrigue, there`s chaos,
nothing unexpected.

Do you think that chain will be broken this year?

DAN RATHER, FORMER ANCHOR, CBS EVENING NEWS : I have no idea. It is true
modern conventions have mostly been infomercials, that the balance of power
switched after 1968. Before 1968, conventions had the balance of power,
after 1968, caucuses and primaries. But I do expect them to be big
infomercials.

But given what`s preceded to these conventions, I`m open minded. Anything
can happen and expect the unexpected.

I will say that with the Republican convention in Cleveland, there`s more
unpredictability with it, because as you pointed out, Donald Trump has the
wall and the opposition to Muslim immigration to the two main anchors he
stands for. Beyond that, it gets very confusing.

However, I think he caught a break today, to tell you the truth, the last
few days, because with the Democratic platform, Hillary Clinton has at
least in the abstract been pulled to the left. Fortunately, for her, Trump
is so far to the right this pull to the left may not affect her as it might
under other circumstances. That`s something to look out for. The
perception is she moves definitely to the left in order to accommodate
Bernie Sanders and his followers and that gives Trump an opening.

HAYES: You know, you say that in the context of normal politics, right?
What I was saying, these positions are far to the left, right? You can
imagine a Republican making that case.

Have you ever covered a general election or election in this case of Trump
particularly that has been so devoid of this kind of substantive rhetoric?

RATHER: Well, you`d have to go back to the George Wallace campaign.
People tend to forgot George Wallace was at least mildly successful in
1968, less so in `72.

HAYES: Won a number of states.

RATHER: But that`s the closest we`ve come to having this kind of campaign.
It`s been almost 50 years ago but 1968 is the closest to what we`re
experiencing in 2016.

Again, most Americans alive today were not alive in 1968 and those that
were don`t remember. The country really felt wrecked at the time. Anti-
war demonstrations, assassinations not only of President John Kennedy, but
Robert Kennedy, Martin Luther King, there were race riots in the streets.

So, this will be the closest parallel we have, not an exact parallel by any
stretch of the imagination. There was no social media in 1968, that made a
big difference here.

Getting back to the platform for a moment, it occurs to me, having said,
that I think the Democratic platform now as it is formed, jerks Hillary
Clinton some what to the left. I operate under the creed of beware of
pastries, easy credit and politicians` promises particularly on platforms.

HAYES: Yes, the big question for all the Sanders supporters who worked
very hard and we will talk about later in the show to make those
commitments is what exactly, if that check will clear once – should she be
elected?

RATHER: Well, if the past is prologue, the party platforms don`t amount to
much. They`re about as useless as old nail clippings, once in office,
sometimes a candidate will give a slight bow to the platform. But you and
I are going to make a lot about the platforms that the Republicans and
Democrats come out with. But going forward, it is not going to amount to
much in the long poll.

HAYES: Yes. We will see, unless there are people who effectively make it
amount to something in terms of how they pressure.

RATHER: Exactly.

HAYES: Dan Rather, a pleasure.

RATHER: Thank you very much, Chris. Thanks for having me. s

HAYES: Still to come, protests around the country over the police
shootings lead to mass arrests, including Black Lives Matter organizer
DeRay McKesson who joins me ahead. But first, the latest twist in the ever
evolving list of potential running mates for Donald Trump, where the search
stands for his number two right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

RATHER: Donald Trump says he`ll decide on his V.P. pick by the end of the
week, this coming after a whirlwind 72 hour news boomlet that retired
Lieutenant General Michael Flynn might be on the presumptive nominee short
list. Flynn is a registered Democrat. Friday, “The Washington Post”
reported Donald Trump is leading towards the idea of a military figure that
after his contentious with the GOP lawmakers last Thursday on the Hill,
he`s more open than ever to a non-politician, even going so far as to say
the potential ticket out loud Trump-Flynn.

Then, yesterday, Flynn said this when asked about his position on abortion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RET. LT. GEN. MICHAEL FLYNN: I think for women, these are difficult
issues, I think women have to be able to choose what they – sort of the
right of choice, but I think that`s a difficult legal decision that – and
I think that women are so important in that decision-making process.

REPORTER: Same sex marriage?

FLYNN: They`re the ones that have to decide whether to bring that child up
or not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: His answer prompted backlash from abortion opponents as you might
imagine. So, today, Flynn tried to clarify, telling FOX News he`s a,
quote, “pro-life Democrat”.

Still the damage seems to be done. Donald Trump gave a 25-minute phone
interview with “The Washington Post” this morning saying how he`s leaning
way from a military V.P., saying of his choices, quote, “I have five people
including the general. I do like the military, but I do very much like the
political.”

Some of those political sources have had audition of sorts, Bob Corker held
a rally with Trump last Tuesday before withdrawing his name from
consideration. Then, on Wednesday, Newt Gingrich joined Donald Trump at a
rally in Cincinnati. Today, Chris Christie joined Donald Trump on the
campaign trail in Virginia, Beach. And rounding up the list, Indiana
Governor Mike Pence gets his shot tomorrow. Right now, he`s probably the
front-runner although this year, who the heck knows?

Joining me now, Heidi Przybyla, senior political reporter for “USA Today.”

Heidi, let`s talk about the sort of field as it stands right now. It does
seem for all the speculation that cast of characters, it seems like there`s
some agreement that is who is in the final running.

HEID PRZYBYLA, USA TODAY: And a lot of these names are actually names that
we`ve been hearing all along. Now that he tells us it`s down to five, you
throw a couple of wild cards in there and one of them is Flynn. So, you
take him out and you`re down to this list of about three.

I agree with your assessment that Pence looks to be probably among the most
desirable of the three. He brings the social conservative pedigree that
Donald Trump is really looking for going into this convention and just into
this race in general to try and unify the party.

As you know, he`s very strong anti-abortion, remind your viewers he signed
that 2015 bill on LGBT services denying – allowing businesses to deny
services to LBGT individuals which became kind of a watershed fight for a
lot of people on the religious right. So, he`s looking to be, you know,
potentially one of the topics here.

And part of the speculation is being driven by the fact that Donald Trump
has spent so much time with him. He spent time with him over the Fourth of
July holiday, and he`ll be back out there again tomorrow, kind of an
unplanned last minute scheduled event that was put onto the calendar.

HAYES: You know, it strikes me, though, that also part of it, when you saw
the Bob Corker, there was a sort of a crescendo of Corker talking and we
all watched that Bob Corker event, it`s so evident that Corker, A, did not
want to be there. Trump gets him to give remarks and begins by saying, I
wasn`t going to say anything. He flounders around with saying something
positive about him and says his family seems kind of nice.

It strikes me that they haven`t – he hasn`t done events together with
Pence yet, and I do think for someone like Trump who is so focused on
performance and the crowds, that is a kind of final test whoever it is
going to be, that they can go in and amp up one of these crowds.

PRZYBYLA: Well, the chemistry is always important. But here`s the big
difference between Corker and Pence. I think Pence may actually want this.

Look at the precarious position pence is in back home. It`s very unclear
he would win re-election as governor. And what would that be, that would
be the end of his political career whereas if he went onto a ticket with
Trump, even if it were a losing ticket, that would be an elevation of his
national profile and put him in the lineup for a 2020 run.

HAYES: This is important because the number of people Donald Trump can
select from is fairly limited because of people`s fears about their
political future. Chris Christie is essentially a lame duck in New Jersey.
He`s so far under water in approval ratings. Pence is also under water,
Newt Gingrich is 73 and I don`t think has a tremendous political future.

I mean, those are sort of the people that`s kind of who you get to choose
from, because someone with a bright future in the Republican Party, it is a
very high leverage bet to attach yourself to Donald Trump.

PRZYBYLA: Right. Gingrich, you have to put Gingrich in that camp. He
really wants this. But all the reporting we`re seeing now from over the
weekend, for example, Trump attended this fun razor and apparently
reportedly said he himself thinks that Gingrich has, quote, “issues” and
that would come to light pretty soon in terms of the Democratic opposition
file that would come to bear on Newt Gingrich. So, I think that`s
something also – if Trump had his druthers, I think he`s signaling to us
takes Newt Gingrich to the second tier.

HAYES: I want to play Mary Fallin doing her best to audition for the role.
I don`t think she`s on the short list. Oklahoma Governor May Fallin, she
has better approval ratings in her home state than others. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Do you think Donald Trump has campaigned as
racial healer?

GOV. MARY FALLIN (R), OKLAHOMA: I think he is trying to campaign as a
racial healer. I think that has been part of his message.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Almost got through that sound byte unscathed. But I don`t think –
we don`t think Fallin is in that finalist.

PRZYBYLA: I`ve seen her at the bottom of some lists. I hate to say this
as a woman, I think that`s kind of a gender pick, here she is, she`s a
governor, she`s a woman, she`s strongly anti-abortion, let`s put her on the
list. I don`t think she`s really one of the top tier candidates.

HAYES: Heidi Przybyla, thanks for your time. Appreciate it.

Still to come, one of the most powerful and popular people in our
government has added their name to the list of people ready to lead the
country in the event of a Donald Trump presidency. That story is just
ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: Tomorrow, President Obama will visit Dallas to meet with some of
the relatives of the police officers slain in Thursday`s attack, and to
join former President George W. Bush in speaking at an interfaith memorial
service.

In an intensely personal news conference this morning, Dallas Police Chief
David Brown said he was not sure how he would make it through the week and
he lamented the expectations placed on police officers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Every societal failure, we put it off on the cops to solve. Not
enough mental health fun funding, let the cop handle it. Not enough drug
conviction fun funding, let`s give to it the cops. Here in Dallas, we have
a loose dog problem. Let`s have the cops chase loose do dogs. You know,
schools fail, give it to the cops.

Seventy percent of the African-American community has been raised by single
women, let`s give to it the cops to solve that as well.

That`s too much to ask. Policing was never meant to solve all those
problems.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: If there is one point of emerging consensus between police critics
and public themselves is precisely that.

Up next, former NYPD officer would be here to discuss what task police have
been given that they shouldn`t have. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: You`re looking at some protests in Atlanta for, I think, probably
the third or fourth night in a row there are street protests under the
banner of the phrase, Black Lives Matter. Those three protests, of course,
been happening all across the country last night, the night before and last
night. And it seems there has been a state of perpetual backlash from
Black Lives Matter from the beginning. And after the events of last week,
and particularly after the brutal murder of those five cops, some were at
it again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, FRM. MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: And when you say black lives
matter, that`s inherently racist.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think their argument.

GIULIANI: Black lives matter, white lives matter, Asian lives matter,
Hispanic lives matter. That`s anti-American and it`s racist.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: As a phrase, black lives matter has had a remarkable degree of
resonance across politics and culture like very few political formulations
in recent memory. It inspires pride and defiance, criticism, debate, even
contemplation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENITIFIED MALE: It is time for this nation to stand up with one voice
and to condemn and shun this movement called Black Lives Matter.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it`s ridiculous that here in America all
lives matterhas now become politically incorrect.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think actually Carly Fiorina got it right this
week, Eric, that individuals matter. We`re a country of individuals.

WAYNE ROGERS, WAYNE ROGERS & CO: What do you mean all lives matter doesn`t
matter? All lives do matter.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think the reason that the
organizers used the phrase “black lives matter,” was not because they were
suggesting nobody else`s lives matter, rather, what they were suggesting
was there is a specific problem that is happening in the
African-American community that`s not happening in other communities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: But beneath it all there has also been an interesting conversation
happening around what to do about the problem of policing in America
specifically.

And joining me now, Heather McGee, president of Demos Action, and former
New York City Police Officer, Eugene O`Donnell, professor of law in police
studies at John J. College.

It is remarkable to me how much this conversation quickly like even on
Facebook threads veers into the phrase, like this phrase.

When you see – when you hear people make the argument that Rudy Guiliani
has made, how do you respond to that?

HEATHER MCGEE, DEMOS ACTION: Well first, I think it`s important to note
our country`s hearts are big enough to hold grief for the men and women who
were injured and hurt in the Dallas police force and the daily assaults and
often killing of unarmed black men by police officers. Our hearts are big
enough for that.

HAYES: well said.

MCGEE; And I think it`s important to note that our hearts are big enough
to understand that
while you`re grieving at your cousin`s funeral saying my cousin`s life
mattered, if someone comes up and says, hey, what about my uncle who`s
sick, that`s actually not that relevant, right.

We are talking about in this country black lives mattering not just because
it happens to be what is visible to us on social media right now, but
because of the founding of this nation, black people were not people. Our
ancestors were not people. They were in fact property. And so that is how
our economy was built, that is how our democracy was built. And so this
nation has unfinished business to do to say that black lives actually
matter beyond what they were first created to do in this country, which is
actually to benefit white land owning men.

HAYES: I think, Heather – Eugene, I think one of the things I have come
to believe in the process of reporting on this and writing on this, I think
that there is a way that people interpret the critique of policing that
puts policing in some special category, right? So, it`s like there`s
American life
and then there`s policing and policing is especially toxic, especially
racist.

And one of the things I think – I think that`s wrong actually as a
critique, right. I mean one of the things I`ve heard some of the Black
Lives Matter folks say policing isn`t that different from other American
institutions. It is the institution which people are entrusted with
committing violence in the state and having a gun.

EUGENE O`DONNELL, JOHN J. COLLEGE: You know, it is important to say Rudy
Guiliani is in a special category. This is a person that made a study out
of the most divisive inflammatory rhetoric with the African-American
community and sadly, is a two term mayor. So, we`re not talking about
crazy people speaking in the recesses of special media or somebody saying,
you kill one of us, we`ll kill two of you in a crowd, we`re talking about
somebody who ever time he speaks on race hits a new low. I`m not even and
African-American, I find one of the things, because I know his playbook
that I find particularly offensive is when he pretends to be talking to the
African-American community, when he`s really talking at the African-
American community and has nothing to say to them.

He has poisoned race relations in New York City almost irreparably. So,
we`re trying to get a handle on this. He is one of the most extremist,
divisive people – I think I remember when he contemplated running for
senate against Mrs. Clinton, I believe the polls showed the African-
American
community he had zero percent. David Duke would have 1 percent. That`s
the kind of mayor he was.

And people who saw him in action – and we can talk about how he destroyed
the police profession as a labor mayor. But people of good faith should be
calling this guy out. And what`s scary is we go into – we have people
running for high office here. If they said what they`re saying out loud on
Facebook as cops they`d be terminated tomorrow morning.

We have to come to grips – and the media is not a corrective. There`s no
– these are people that have been successful saying these things over and
over again.

HAYES: Can i follow up on that and get a response, Heather. When you say
– when you destroy the police profession, I think that sync up with
something chief David Brown, Chief David Brown was talking about, which is
there was a tremendous amount from the policy on down to push officers to
do more. That meant more citations, it meant more, quote, proactive
policing, broken
windows policing, it meant that assuming officers were lazy and having them
do more. And the more they did, then that was – they were doing their job
best.

And a lot of that did start here in New York City – Eugene.

O`DONNELL: Oh, I`m sorry, Chris. Yes, it did, absolutely. This was –
listen to Chief
Brown. It`s so instructive. A white chief can`t quite do what he can do
but he can come very close. The difference we have humanistic, heart-to-
heart, concerning conversation with people that`s empathetic and really
grasps issues. There is an unlimited appetite for that in inner city
America.

But what we saw during – with the broken windows policing – and by the
way, this was imposed by think tanks, never really validated. A lot of it
was quackery, to be honest with you. not the idea the police proactively
are important, the idea that there was some science to it, that if you did
100,000 stops, the city was a certain level of safety and 200,000, it was
twice as safe, that was quackery.

And that was impose – and by the way, some people would be very surprised
if they talked to
cops, a lot of old time cops actually would have resisted this whole
simplistic thing. It was imposed on them by political people and
outsiders. This was never something the police came up with.

HAYES: Heather, this is the key thing, because we focus on the moment that
a person`s life ends understandably, right. But that is the small tip of a
huge spear, which is zooming out to think about how often do we require
citizens and police to interact and what do we want the police to do in a
broad sense, which is do we want them writing, pulling people over for
taillights and writing tickets, do we want them – what do we want them to
do? That to me seems the fundamental question here.

O`DONNELL: And I think the desire for safety and justice and community,
real community policing has been one of the central cries of the Black
Lives Matter movement. What that has been so contraposed with is the
reality of mass incarceration and mass criminalization, where you have
police departments using working class people, black people, but also other
people of color and working class white people, to fund the revenue for
their systems.

How deeply messed up is that? And that`s one of the ways that trickle down
economics and austerity actually has led to the overpolicing of
communities.

HAYES: All right, Heather McGee and Eugene O`Donnell, thank you both.
Appreciate that.

All right, you`re looking at some images, disturbing images from Baton
Rouge this weekend. Still to come, Black Lives Matter organizer DeRay
Mckesson will be here to give a firsthand account of the protests over the
weekend in Baton Rouge. Over 100 people were arrested. He was one of
them. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Of course, every time we have a presidential election our friends
to the north have to
brace for an exodus of Americans who swear they will move to Canada if the
guy from the other party wins. And so – but typically it turns out fine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Thing one tonight, it`s a trope of American politics that if a
certain person gets elected then there`s a whole group of Americans who are
going to leave the country, some willing to head to our neighbors to the
north Canada. This election cycle is no different, after all, as one
Twitter user pointed out Canada appears to be the opposite of America these
days.

And on super Tuesday that became abundantly clear as Donald Trump won seven
out of 11 states and seemed to have taken Chris Christie hostage, so it
wasn`t surprising to see that U.S.-based Google searches for move to
Canada, most popular Canadian immigration related search term, reached
their highest point in more than 10 years that evening.

But it`s not just Canada facing a potential influx of American citizens if
Trump becomes president, celebrities like Miley Cyrus have mulled over
leaving the country destination unknown at
this point if Trump took the White House. Jon Stewart has been more
specific in his plans, contemplating a move from planet Earth.

And now another prominent person arguably one of the most powerful people
in our government is threatening to move away if Donald Trump wins in
November. Thing two, the identity of that person in 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: So, lots of people have pledged to or at least expressed interest
in moving to another country if Donald Trump is elected president. Now, a
Supreme Court justice is adding her voice to the mix.

In a rare and extremely candid interview with the New York Times, Justice
Ruth Bader Ginsburg did not hold back on her opinion of the presumptive
Republican nominee: “I can`t imagine what this place will be – I can`t
imagine what the country would be – with Donald Trump as our president,”
she said. “For the country, it would be four years, for the court it could
be – I don`t want to contemplate that.”

Justice Ginsburg then added something her late husband would have to say
about the situation, “now, it`s time for us to move to New Zealand.”

If she ever actually followed through on that, the Supreme C ourt would be
down to just seven
justices thanks to the Senate`s – well, Republicans in the Senate`s
refusal to act on a replacement for the late Justice Antonin Scalia.

Judge Merrick Garland, nominated by President Obama 118 days ago is still
awaiting for even
a hearing. Justice Ginsburg told The Time that he would be a great
colleague, saying, “I think he`s about as well qualified as any nominee to
this court.” And when asked if the Senate had an obligation to assess
Judge Garland`s qualifications, her answer was immediate, “that`s their
job,” she said.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: After a long and sometimes brutal primary battle, Hillary Clinton
and Bernie Sanders are finally going to appear at a campaign event together
tomorrow morning in Portsmouth, New Hhampshire. And he`s expected to
endorse her after a recent agreement to a number of issues on the
Democratic Party platform.

At least one area of controversy still remains after the Sanders camp lost
an attempt to have explicit opposition to the TransPacific Partnership
trade agreement out of the party platform draft on Saturday night even
though both Clinton and Sanders officially opposed TPP.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CORNEL WEST: And let`s be clear if it were not for the Sanders campaign we
wouldn`t even be having this kind of debate. Let us not be deceived the
tentions between the corporate wing and populist wing of this party is one
in which we don`t want window dressing in talking about working people, we
want opposition that`s concrete. We want unity, but we want it real. We
don`t want it on the backs of working people, we want opposition of TPP in
this platform.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: One clear area of agreement between the Clinton and Sanders camps,
a need for criminal justice and policing reform. The daft platform
includes a commitment to ending mass incarceration, investment in training
for police officers on issues of deescalation and the appropriate use of
force.

Back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: Across the country this weekend, hundreds were arrested in ongoing
protests over police shootings of black citizens. Largely peaceful
protesters blocked roadways in several cities including St. Paul,
Minnesota. Philando Castile was fatally shot by a police officer in a
suburb of St. Paul last Wednesday.

On Saturday around midnight St. Paul police deployed smoke bombs as
protesters threw objects, refused to leave interstate 94. Police reported
there were 21 officers injured, one officer suffering a spinal fracture
after police say a concrete block was dropped on his head.

More than a 100 protesters were arrested, with 46 adults being charged with
third degree riot, a gross misdemeanor.

In Baton Rouge where Alton Sterling was shot by officers while pinned to
the ground last Tuesday, protesters there were confronted by a militarized
police force reminiscent of scene in Ferguson in 2014 – police using
tactical vehicles, riot shields and gas masks.

On Twitter, video was posted that appeared to show an officer with her
weapon raised in the
direction of protesters. More than 100 people were arrested in Baton Rouge
with police saying they confiscated multiple guns, largely blaming
protesters who came from out of town for causing problems.

Among those arrested were nurse Ayesha Evans, charged with obstruction of a
roadway and seen here surrounded by heavily fortified police in an
instantly iconic image.

Also arrested, prominent Black Lives Matter activist DeRay Mckesson, who I
will speak with shortly.

Perhaps the most intense scene occurred as SWAT teams ascended on the front
lawn of a private home where hundreds had gathered with the permission of
the person who lives there.

Some report police forced them onto the street and then arrested them for
being on the street.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is private property. You cannot do this. Back
up!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Back off!

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s private property! This is private property.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, no! No!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my god. Oh, my god. Oh, my god.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Joining me now, civil rights activist DeRay Mckesson.

DeRay, tell me about what went down the night that you were arrested.

DERAY MCKESSON, BLACK LIVES MATTER ACTIVIST: So, in Baton Rouge, what we
continue to see, what we saw in that video you just showed, and what we saw
the night that I was arrested is the police provoking protesters so they
can create a context of conflict that they can exploit.

So, when I was arrested earlier in the day, protesters were just standing
at the barricade, no
street was blocked, nobody doing anything and the police just came out and
started engaging in snatch and grabs so that they could get people riled
up.

And when I think about my own arrest, the officers gave me an order and I
actually followed the order that time and I was arrested nonetheless.

What we know to be true here in Baton Rouge and definitely in towns like
Ferguson and other
cities is that the police are provoking the protesters with the hopes of
creating a conflict, so that then they can say the protesters are violent.

But in Baton Rouge the only violent people I have seen have been the
police.

HAYES: The images out of Baton Rouge have really looked a lot like
Ferguson. I mean, obviously, there`s been police response to protests
around the country, but I haven`t quite seen anything quite as militarized
– the large vehicles, the very intense gear, the gas masks, I haven`t seen
anything quite like that in a while since Ferguson.

What do you think is driving that?

MCKESSON: Yes. So, I think that in Baton Rouge the police are trying to
intimidate protesters so that they will be afraid to speak out and the
people will feel like there`s nothing they can do. And I`ll tel you from
sitting in that cell for 16, 17 hours is that if anything, the arrests are
actually just making more people confident they have to speak out, that
they must act and they have to push back on this police department that is
going about their business unchecked.

And we know that there`s no group of public servants, there`s no group of
citizens in the country that should be able to operate outside the confines
of the law. And here in Baton Rouge and in other
cities, the police can essentially do whatever they want and the law
doesn`t matter. I`m hopeful that the DOJ will intervene and not only the
current investigation in the death of Alton Sterling but they`ll expand
that to look at the policies and practices of this police department here
in Baton Rouge.

HAYES: Yeah, there have been complaints in the past, this story from `Nola
about Baton Rouge state troopers from other states who come into Baton
Rouge in the wake of hurricane Katrina, one
state trooper from michigan said Baton Rouge policemen tried to thank him
for his help by letting him, quote, beat down a prisoner. That is not my
allegation, that`s the allegation of a fellow member of law enforcement who
had gone there.

What have you heard from the folks on the ground there from Baton Rouge
about their experiences with the police department independent of what
happened on that night to Alton Sterling?

MCKESSON: Yes. So, you know, we had a lot of time to talk for those 17
hours that I was in jail and heard story after story of people talking
about getting pulled over, about their property being taken, about being
hit, about all of these things that we`ve heard both here in Baton Rouge
and across the country.

And I think that there`s a breaking point that`s happening in Baton Rouge
where people are like I`m not going to be silent anymore. And I think that
that is at the heart of what protest is. Protest is the idea of telling
the truth in public. And what we see in Baton Rouge is people finding
their voice and using that voice to tell the truth about the terrors of the
police that they continue to see in the – are inflicted upon them daily.
And they`re saying we`re not going to let this go unchecked. And I think
that`s important. It was important in Ferguson. It`s important in Baton
Rouge.

And again I think that the president has an onus to direct the DOJ to
really do a deep, thorough analysis of this police department.

HAYES: Quickly, I`m curious what your response to Chief David Brown in
Dallas talking about his response to protesters that were – you know,
we`re accepting resumes. You should come apply and be a police officer,
which I`m not – what do you think of that?

MCKESSON: Yeah, I don`t have to be in a profession to have expectations
for that profession. I am not going to be a doctor. I`m not a doctor. I
have expectations about how my doctor performs. I am not a police officer,
but I have expectations about how police officers – especially given the
immense power they have to take lives – how they perform in communities.

So, I think that the sentiment is a funny sentiment from the police
department. I think it`s a cheeky thing to say. I think it is wholly
dismissive and misses the point of police accountability that we have been
pressing for two years.

HAYES: All right, DeRay Mckesson it`s a pleasure. Thank you very much.

MCKESSON: Good to see you.

HAYES: That is All In for this evening. “THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW” starts
right now. Good evening, Rachel.


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
BE UPDATED.
END

Copyright 2016 CQ-Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein are protected by
United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed,
transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written
permission of CQ-Roll Call. You may not alter or remove any trademark,
copyright or other notice from copies of the content.>