All In With Chris Hayes, Transcript 3/28/2016

Barry Bennett, Mickey Edwards, John Nichols, Jess McIntosh, Josh Barro, Susan Sarandon, Dan Savage

Date: March 28, 2016
Guest: Barry Bennett, Mickey Edwards, John Nichols, Jess McIntosh, Josh
Barro, Susan Sarandon, Dan Savage


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN –

CHARLIE SYKES, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I expect that from a 12-year-old
bully on the playground, not somebody who wants the office held by Abraham

retweet by somebody else.

HAYES: Donald Trump`s welcome rocky to Wisconsin.

SYKES: Do you stand by what you said about Scott Walker?

TRUMP: I can only say what I took out of `Time Magazine”. If “Time
Magazine” is wrong, then they should apologize.

HAYES: How the Badger State become the front lines of the stop Trump

Plus, why the Trump campaign now plans to file a legal complaint with the

Then, Bernie Sanders just won three states by a land slide.

path toward victory.


HAYES: Sanders backer Susan Sarandon tells me something that should worry
team Clinton.

SUSAN SARANDON, ACTRESS: I think a lot of people are sorry. I just can`t
bring myself to do that.

HAYES: And we`ll tell you who`s actually behind the petition to have guns
at the Republican Convention when ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

There are two races under way right now in the Republican presidential
election. The one for the votes of citizens who actually go cast a primary
ballot for the candidate of their choice. That race gets the big headline
in the flashy election night coverage. That`s where campaigns post most of
their energy and resources and we in the news media dissect every detail.

But after the candidates and the cameras have all moved on from the state,
the other race unfolds behind the scenes. It`s the process of selecting
the actual delegates, the real people and representatives from each state
to go to the Republican convention this summer in Cleveland. In the anti-
Trump forces want any hope of stopping Trump, this is the race they cannot

Now, the first race, the one playing out in public is all about getting to
the magic number, 1,237 delegates. And Trump is still the only candidate
within striking dance.

Next primary is in Wisconsin a week from tomorrow, it`s winner take all
which means the tiniest margins could decides whether he gets all 42
delegates or nothing at all. He`s making his first campaign stop there
tomorrow, but Trump has already run into a buzz saw with Wisconsin`s robust
conservative establishment recently empowered by the political battles of
the Scott Walker years. In a tough telephone interview with prominent talk
radio host, Charlie Sykes, a vocal Trump critic, the Republican front-
runner refused to apologize for recent comments about Ted Cruz`s wife and
it did go over well.


SYKES: I failed in my effort to introduce you to Wisconsin and tradition
of civility and decency by getting in an apology from you for Heidi Cruz or
for what you said about Scott Walker –

TRUMP: Well, am I getting an apology by somebody to sent out a picture of
my wife? Again, I didn`t start it. He started it. If he didn`t start it,
it would have never happened. Nothing like this would have ever happened.
But he started it. So –

SYKES: But remember we`re not – we`re not –


SYKES: We`re not on a playground. We`re running for president of the
United States.


HAYES: More in the battle for Wisconsin, which I should note is winner
take most, not winner take all, as I just said a moment ago. We will talk
about that later on the show.

But even after voters go to the polls next week, it won`t be the end of the
story, far from it, because that`s when the second race, the behind the
scenes race is just getting started. Just look at what`s happening in
Louisiana, where an ugly fight over delegates is now developing. Even
though the state GOP held its primary over three weeks ago, it was a solid
victory for Trump who finished three points ahead of Ted Cruz. Then, last
week, “The Wall Street Journal” reported that Cruz could ultimately win the
delegate count, potentially picking up the five delegates awarded to Marco
Rubio, plus the state`s five unbound delegates. Trump threatened to sue on
Twitter, which is a thing he likes to do.

But then, today in an interview on MSNBC, senior advisor Barry Bennett said
the Trump campaign plans to follow through.


having here is there`s a secret meeting in Louisiana of a convention
delegation and apparently all the invitations for our delegates must have
gotten lost in the mail. I`ve been with our legal team most of the morning
now and we`re moving forward with the complaint to decertify these


HAYES: OK. It is hard to overstate what an impact and bloody battle this
could become if campaign starts suing the Republican Party to decertify or
block other candidates` slates from the convention. And that`s only part
of behind the scenes intrigue in Louisiana and across the country.

A week after the primary, the state GOP convention, Louisiana delegates
elected representatives to the three RNC committees that will decide how
things work in Cleveland, including the all important rules committee,
which has control over the nomination process. It could, theoretically,
for instance, decide that no one with the initials D.T. can be the
Republican nominee, if it wanted to. And according to “The Journal”, Cruz
supporters seized five of Louisiana`s six slots on those three crucial
committees. If Trump`s opponents continue to sue that, all bets are off
when we get to Cleveland in July.

And one prominent Trump supporter is already predicting dire consequences.


DR. BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If there are shenanigans, if
it`s not straightforward, all of those millions of people that Donald Trump
has brought into the arena are not going to stay there. And the
Republicans are going to lose and it`s going to be not only the presidency,
but it`s gong to be the Senate. It could even been the House. It`s going
to be absolute destruction.


HAYES: Joining me now is Barry Bennett, senior adviser of the Trump
campaign, former campaign manager for Ben Carson.

Mr. Bennett, what`s the lawsuit about?

BENNETT: Well, after the convention on Sunday or this weekend, 27 of the
46 delegates got together and with a vote of 22 of the 27, they decided
that the Cruz delegates should be on the rules committee and all of the
standing committees except for one slot. Our delegates, 18 of them, the
invitations must have gotten lost in the mail for the meeting.

HAYES: I`ve heard you say that line before. But specifically, what`s the
legal problem with that? I mean, it is the party. Didn`t you guys get
caught napping or outhustled?

BENNETT: No, I mean, the rules of the state party require that all of the
delegates be gathered, not just the ones that you think will vote the way
you want to vote. That`s the first violation.

So, you know, we`re going to move forward with certification challenge to
those delegates. They should have had a meeting with all the delegates, 22
votes, which isn`t even a majority of 46, shouldn`t be deciding who gets
the most powerful slots at the convention.

HAYES: Are you guys getting outhustled at the ground level because the
Trump campaign has so little on the ground organization, and it`s frankly
so distant from the institutional Republican Party?

BENNETT: Well, I think, you know, four years ago, Louisiana had problems
as well. So, I don`t think it`s a ground game problem for us. We have a
pretty good team now and we`re moving around the country rapidly. And when
we find things like this, we are going to fight it. But, you know, what
happened here just wasn`t on the up and up.

HAYES: Who is the ultimate authority here? Who`s the ultimate arbiter?


HAYES: The RNC. I mean, in some strict, important sense, right, the party
does decide its own nominee. I mean, if the party wants to screw you, they
probably can.

BENNETT: Yes. I mean, eventually, it goes – you can appeal then to the
delegates at the convention, but yes.

HAYES: So, what`s the strategy going forward here? I mean, you can file a
lot of lawsuits but it seems like we`re running towards a situation like
famously in `68, there were two slates of delegates from Mississippi.
There was the Mississippi Freedom Democrats and the Institutional
Mississippi Democratic Party. There was a floor fight over who is gong to
get seated there. Is that the kind of thing – you know, two sets of
delegates showing up at rules meetings, two sets of delegates trying to get
behind closed door meetings?

BENNETT: It`s not horribly uncommon that you run into the problems going
into the convention. I think it`s settled out right before the convention.
But we hope this is a rare occurrence and isn`t repeated in other states.
But like I said, 22 people should not decide for 46 people.

HAYES: Donald Trump has basically said that if he gets just below 1,237,
the magic number which signifies the majority of the delegates that are
gettable, that it would essentially lead to riots or unrest or tremendous
disaffection if he were not to get the nomination, but that number is there
for a reason, right? I mean, it wasn`t pulled out of thin air. It`s just
the majority of the delegates.

BENNETT: Right, it`s majority plus one. We`re going to get to 1,237.
That`s not a problem. Our projections have us at 1,450 to 1,460. You
know, after the last primary, they have 40 days to woe the – at will or
free delegates. And then you`ve got the first three days of the convention
before the ballots.

So, there`s plenty of time to woe those who are willing to be wooed, if you
will. But I don`t – we`re not going to have two ballots at the
convention. It will be the first ballot and it will be decided.

HAYES: Can I ask you why you`re doing this?

BENNETT: Doing what?

HAYES: Working for Donald Trump.

BENNETT: Because I think Washington needs a big time makeover. I think
the Bernie Sanders supporters and the Donald Trump supporters have that in
common. They both believe that the establishment in Washington, both
Republican and Democrat, have done a lot to harm our country. We have two
separate solutions, but we have a common problem.

HAYES: We`ll see how the solutions play out. Barry Bennett, thank you
very much. Appreciate it.

BENNETT: Thank you.

HAYES: I`m joined now by Mickey Edwards, the former Republican congressman
from Oklahoma, who has some experience at conventions.

What do you think about the blithe assurances from Mr. Bennett that they`re
going to get what they need?

FORMER REP. MICKEY EDWARDS (R), OKLAHOMA: You know, I think there`s very
slim chance that that will happen. I think Trump knows it. That`s why
they are threatening to cause disturbances or riots, you know, at the
convention because they`re afraid the rules will stand.

He wants like any bully or any cry baby, what the Trump campaign wants to
do is say, maybe it`s a hundred yard dash. Maybe I won`t get quite that
far, but if I come close, you ought to give it to me. He wants to change
the rules rather than – you know, there`s a reason, as you said, there is
that number. You have to reach that number. If you don`t reach it, nobody
reaches it, there`s not a nominee. And then the convention decides who
they want representing the Republican Party.

HAYES: Mr. Edwards, this is what I can`t decide. I love your insight into
this. Is the institutional Republican Party such as it continues to exist
going to roll over and basically allow themselves to be bullied into a
Trump nomination even if the guy is getting 40 percent, 50 percent, 45
percent, or are they actually going to do everything in their power to –
at every marginal delegate make sure they are taking delegates away from

EDWARDS: They`re going to do everything in their power, because this is
not game, and we`re not talking about who gets the nomination of a club to
run for president. We`re talking about who could potentially be the
president of the United States.

And the prospect of having somebody who knows so little, is so cavalier
with the truth, who is so nasty and demeaning and potentially very damaging
to our relationships around the world. You can`t let somebody like that
become president of the United States because, as your previous guest just
said, you know, we need change. Well, maybe we need change, maybe we don`t
need change, but Donald Trump is not the change we need and the Republican
Party knows that.

You know –

HAYES: Let me stop you for one second, though. When you say that this to
me seems a key point, when you say the Republican Party knows that. What
are you referring to specifically? When you say Republican Party as an
entity, what does that mean?

EDWARDS: Chris, there`s been 32 conventions, caucuses, primaries held so
far. Over 21 million votes have been cast, overwhelming number of them, 60
percent of them against Donald Trump. And for months and months, it has
been Donald Trump versus not Donald Trump. And the not Donald Trump votes
have been all split up because there`s so many candidates running.

But, you know, every poll shows that Donald Trump is very unpopular with
the Republican Party and for him to say, if I don`t get the magic number, I
don`t finish the race, I`m a loser, which is basically what he`s facing,
you know that rules have to be changed, because – you know, the voters,
the Republican voters have rejected him so far by nearly six million votes
that have gone against the margin between those two voted against him and
those who voted for him. That`s why he should not be representing the
Republican Party.

HAYES: It`s been a very long time since we had an open convention. `76 is
sort of the closest. Does anyone know how to do this anymore? Are you
confident that a convention, a modern political convention can exist
without a determined nominee going into it?

EDWARDS: Well, sure. These people – we`ve done there. I`ve been to lots
of conventions. We know how to do it. We know how to run a convention.
It`s a lot more peaceful. A lot calmer if you already know who your
nominee is before you get there and do a TV show.

But as it happens, this is serious business. And delegates know – the
final say is in the hands of the delegate themselves. They can change the
rules. They can keep the rules as they are.

After the first ballot, you know, they can vote for anybody they want. A
lot of these people, you know, are party regulars who got assigned to vote
for Donald Trump because he won their primary. That doesn`t mean they`re
for him.

HAYES: Yes, that is one of the things we`ll find out as we get further in
this process.

Mickey Edwards, thank you very much.

EDWARDS: Thank you, Chris.

HAYES: Still ahead, given everything we told you about the Republican
convention this July, do you think that allowing firearms into that
Cleveland arena would be a good idea? Why almost 50,000 people signed a
petition saying go for it.

Plus, it was a big weekend for Bernie Sanders. Susan Sarandon is here to
tell us why she`s more optimistic than ever.

But, first, we`ll take a closer listen to one of the worst interviews
Donald Trump has given this campaign. That`s two minutes away. Set your
iPhones and don`t go anywhere.



SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Now, I`ve got a very simple
suggestion: Donald, why don`t you show up and debate like a man?


Now, listen, I recognize that Donald prefers to communicate in 140
characters or less. And there`s a reason Donald doesn`t like debates,
because it`s one thing to yell about the problems in America. But what
becomes evident in the debate is that Donald has no solutions to the
problems we`re facing in this country.


HAYES: Senator Ted Cruz tonight challenging Donald Trump to a one-on-one
debate in Wisconsin tomorrow night. It`s the state with 42 delegates up for
grabs in next week`s primary.

And Cruz has been pushing hard to win them, campaigning across the state,
following as “The Chicago Tribune” put it, a winning road map drawn by
Wisconsin governor and former 2016 presidential hopeful, Scott Walker, in
2010, up Wisconsin`s rural and working class midsection, the same
demographic that`s driven Trump`s success thus far.

Scott Walker won three times. Donald Trump today made his own attempt to
connect with Wisconsin voters by calling into three separate conservative
radio shows, not realizing perhaps that as Dave Weigel of “The Washington
Post” puts it, the worst kept secret in Wisconsin`s primary is that its
most influential conservative radio hosts are hostile to Donald Trump.

Here are just some of the awkward interview between Trump and radio show
host Charlie Sykes, a self-described never Trump guy.


SYKES: Since you`re here in Wisconsin, last august you said some things
about conservatives, the conservative revolution here in Wisconsin, Scott
Walker, that I wanted to give you a chance to respond to. You said
Wisconsin is doing terribly. It`s in turmoil. They projected a $1 billion
surplus. It turns to be a deficit of $2.2 billion. The schools are a
disaster. The hospitals and education was a disaster.

Mr. Trump, do you stand by that now that you`re going to be talking to

TRUMP: I can`t tell you, I got that from “Time Magazine”. It was taken
out of there verbatim. It was actually taken out of “Time Magazine”.

SYKES: OK, but you said it, Mr. Trump. You`re running for president. Do
you stand by what you said about Scott Walker?

TRUMP: I can only say what I took out of “Time Magazine”. I took a story
out of “Time Magazine” and the story was exactly what it said. It said
that $2.2 billion deficit –

SYKES: Which turns out to be false.

TRUMP: Now, if “Time Magazine`s” wrong, then they should apologize. Then
I would certainly apologize for reading “Time Magazine”.


HAYES: That was one portion of Trump`s first radio interview of the day.
Gave two more interviews. The last one with conservative radio host Vicki
McKenna, where he appeared to hang up on her.


VICKI MCKENNA, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: “The National Enquirer” is not
respected. That article about the alleged affairs was as well-sourced as
game of telephone.

TRUMP: I didn`t put it in. Somebody put it in. It wasn`t me.

MCKENNA: How about this? How about wives and kids off limits?

TRUMP: Well, that`s OK. All you have to do is tell that to Cruz because
he started it.

MCKENNA: If I can get Senator Cruz on the program, I would say the same.

TRUMP: Best of luck to you, Vicki. Best of luck.

MCKENNA: I appreciate the time.


HAYES: Donald Trump will be arriving in person in Wisconsin for the first
time tomorrow, just in time for Governor Scott Walker to make his
endorsement on Charlie Sykes own radio show.

Joining me now, John Nichols, Washington correspondent for “The Nation”,
associate editor for the Wisconsin paper, “The Capitol Times”.

And, John, I`m fascinated by the way that the entire kind of Walker machine
such as it is, is mobilizing against Trump. Is it surprising to you or is
this what you would have expected?

JOHN NICHOLS, THE NATION: Well, it`s certainly not what we expected at the
start of the race. Everybody thought that Scott Walker would have his team
mobilized behind it.

But when Walker`s campaign collapsed, it really threw all the elements of
his coalition in different directions. A lot of them, a lot of the
legislatures went to Marco Rubio.

Talk radio was kind of all over the place, but as all these other
candidates starts to drop out, you saw Charlie Sykes and a few other folks
kind of start to edge stronger and stronger toward the Cruz position. And
there`s simply no question now that talk radio is aligned with the Walker
or at least a lot of the Walker/legislative Republican establishment behind
Cruz or at least encouraging Cruz whether they have endorsed or not

And then you have the old school, Tommy Thompson, somewhat more moderate
Republicans very strongly aligned with Kasich. Now, Trump, he doesn`t have
– he has hardly anybody except perhaps a good chunk of blue collar voters.

HAYES: Yes, I wonder how much the Walker, looks like he`s going to say
he`s not endorsing anyone or he`s going to endorse, and I presume it would
be Cruz because he`s already on the record saying Cruz is the only way to
beat Trump.

How much – how much will that matter?

NICHOLS: I`m not sure. It`s a very complex game that`s in play.

Remember, Wisconsin has been on an incredible roller coaster for the last
five, six years because of Scott Walker`s governorship. And from the
outside, it may look like the Republicans are a united grouping. In fact,
there`s a lot of Republicans who have not been all that enthusiastic about
Scott Walker. They backed him when he was fighting the Democrats and they
back him when he was fighting the unions, but now that you`re in an
internal fight, you have a complex division developing where some of the
old school Republicans, people like Tommy Thompson, former Congressman
Scott Klug, really want to have a Republican nominee who can potentially
win the state in November.

HAYES: Right.

NICHOLS: So, they`re showing up with Kasich.

Then, you have the Walker people aligning a lot with talk radio and just
trying to stop Trump without a real vision of where they go next.

HAYES: Do you think that Trump`s lack of any actual sort of institutional
support in the state will ultimately spell his demise because it seems to
me like this really is a never Trump kind of landmark battle. I mean, you
really got everyone arrayed against this guy. And he`s got essentially
nothing but just the degree to which he has genuine appeal to the base.

NICHOLS: Yes. This is a big deal. I think that one thing that hasn`t
been talked about enough is that Donald Trump has under polled in Wisconsin
from the start of this race. He`s always been weaker in Wisconsin than in
other states.

And the November pairing shows him being wiped out by Bernie Sanders and
Hillary Clinton. And so, I think there`s always been a problem there for
Trump much like there was in Minnesota.

The one thing I would emphasize is that if we – I was at a Kasich event
just before I came over to do this show. It was packed to the rafters.
There was no room to fit anybody else in. And I saw a lot of, you know,
hard core, real Republicans there, active Republicans.

And I don`t say casually, but I think there`s an outside chance Trump could
really do very poorly in Wisconsin.

HAYES: That is fascinating.

NICHOLS: Losing some congressional districts.

HAYES: All right. John Nichols, thank you so much for joining us.
Appreciate that.

NICHOLES: Thank you.

HAYES: Still ahead, I sat down with Susan Sarandon to talk about her
support for Bernie Sanders and whether Sanders supporters could eventually
come around and vote for Clinton.


SARANDON: I think a lot of people are sorry. I just can`t bring myself to
do that.

HAYES: How about you, personally?

SARANDON: I don`t know. I`m going to see what happens.

HAYES: Really?




HAYES: A question to you, dear viewer. Am I, Chris Hayes, to blame for
Donald Trump? You maybe wondering, but it is a question I`ve asked myself.
It`s a question that has been asked of me when I`ve been out on the road,
talking to folks in Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, and in Houston,
and it`s been a question particularly from viewers of this network, of this
show. Some of whom do feel I am partly to blame or certainly part of the

Today, a prominent member of the media tribe placed the blame on us, the
media tribe. I have some thoughts on that, ahead.


HAYES: Big victories for Senator Bernie Sanders this weekend for the
Democratic nomination for president. Sanders swept the caucuses of Alaska,
Hawaii and Washington state by wide margins, netting at least 35 delegates.

Part of Sanders` job is to convince voters that this fight is far from


SANDERS: And that is how we win when working people and young people, when
people have given up on the political process get back in and demand the
government that represents all of us, not the 1 percent. That`s how it




HAYES: Sanders still trails Clinton by about 250 pledge delegates, but his
campaign sees a path to victory. And with the delegate rich states of
Wisconsin, New York next up on the calendar. Today, Sanders aide Tad
Devine told reporters, I think it`s clear now to anyone that knows how to
count delegates that neither candidate, Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders
is going to win a majority of the delegates at the Democratic convention
with just pledged delegates.

The math doesn`t bear that out. As we mentioned, Clinton is ahead of
Sanders in pledged delegates, collecting 56 percent of those delegates so
far, and could, in fact, reach the magic number of delegates by the

But here`s a plot twist, the Sanders campaign is now saying it also
believes that it can persuade super delegates already committed to Clinton
to flip, something that super delegates are of course at liberty to do.
And that would mean a campaign that extends even past the final primaries
on June 7 and into the convention in July.

It would be a long ride for Sanders campaign, but if his most fervent
supporters have shown anything over this campaign it`s that they are ride
or die for Bernie.

Earlier I spoke with ones of those people who has been a very vocal
surrogate for the campaign from early on, actress Susan Sarandon.


HAYES: So, you`ve been on the campaign trail with Bernie Sanders quite a
bit, a bunch of states. I`m always curious what you feel like, what do you
get from that?

much connection with an America that I haven`t seen.

I mean, I`ve driven across country a while back and I worked in Iowa, but
to actually have the opportunity to talk to people and so moved by their
passion and there`s a lot of independent thinkers in the middle of this
country. And to see them give their time and their passion and be so
vulnerable that way to want to be engaged again after not having anyone
really that they trusted or spoke to them and see thousands upon thousands
of people turn out and also thousands of volunteers from other places and
to visit those little offices and to introduce him in the beginning when he
didn`t have any security whatsoever and now there`s also these guys, secret
service traveling with him and everything.

But I really want to be on the right side of history, and this is a shot
that we`re not going to have again in my lifetime to have a candidate
that`s so morally consistent, makes decisions, whose judgment proves to be
true, but does it at a time when it`s not popular, when it`s not
comfortable, a candidate whose not taken any money from fracking or
Monsanto, or, you know, super PACs or Wall Street or all of the farm, big
farm, you known, which all the other candidates have.

And those are issues that are really important to me. So, to have a guy
that`s that consistent, that is that clean, is just not going to happen

HAYES: You just said on the right side of history, which is interesting to
me. I think in certain quarters there`s growing concern that the folks
that are into Bernie Sanders have come to despise Hillary Clinton or reject
Hillary Clinton and that should she be the nominee, which is as yet
undetermined, they will walk away.

SARANDON: That`s been a legitimate concern, because they`ve very
passionate and very principled. And…

HAYES: But isn`t that crazy?

If you believe in what he believes in.

SARANDON: Yeah, but she doesn`t. She`s accepted money for all of those
people. She doesn`t want to fight for a $15 minimum wage. So, these are
people that have not come out before. So, why would we think they would
come out for her.

HAYES: You really that?

SARANDON: I think there`s a good possibility. I talk to people who either
want to write – I talk to Republicans who have written him in already.
And they just feel like she`s not authentic. That she`s a liar. That they
don`t trust her so what difference does it make.

You know, if you`re a small farmer and you`re worried about fracking on
your property. In Idaho they just passed a bill where they can frack on
private land, and you know that she`s taken money from fracking, why would
you think that that`s – she`s going to have your back?

HAYES: Well, because they make the argument that there are all kinds of
politicians, Barack Obama is the one that Hillary Clinton cites all the
time, who have done things to effectively reign in industries, or reform
industries, that they have taken money from.

SARANDON: I`d like to see that…

HAYES: You don`t buy it at all.

SARANDON: No, I don`t buy it all, because she`s been selling fracking all
over the world. There`s her talking about Monsanto and how clean not
talking about Roundup or what they put in it or what it`s done to our
economy. and they know that jobs are going out, you know, Bernie doesn`t -
- voted against NAFTA, you know, TPP, you know all these things coming up
that know effect their jobs. And she`s not on the right side of that. She
hasn`t voted right.

So, what would you make think that once she gets in she is going to
suddenly go against the people that have given her millions and millions of
dollars. I think that`s being incredibly naive and ecotistical to think
suddenly she`s going to see the right, you know.

HAYES: Right, but isn`t the question always in an election about choices,
right. I mean, I think a lot of people think to themselves well if it`s
Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, and I think Bernie Sanders probably would
think this…

SARANDON: I think Bernie probably would encourage people because he
doesn`t have any ego. I think a lot of people are sorry, I can`t bring
myself to do that.

HAYES: How about you personally?

SARANDON: I don`t know. I`m going to see what happens.

HAYES: Really?


HAYES: I cannot believe as you`re watching the, if Donald Trump…

SARANDON: Some people feel Donald Trump will bring the revolution
immediately if he gets in then things will really, you know explode.

HAYES: You`re saying the Leninist model of…

SARANDON: Some people feel that.

HAYES: Don`t you think that`s dangerous?

SARANDON: I think what`s going on now. If you think it`s pragmatic to
shore up the status quo right now, then you`re not in touch with the status
quo. The statue quo is not working, and I think it`s dangerous to think
that we can continue the way we are with the militarized police force, with
privatized prisons, with the death penalty, with the low minimum wage, with
threats to women`s rights and think that you can`t do something huge to
turn that around. Because the country is not in good shape if you`re in
the middle class. It`s disappearing.

And you look if you want to go see Michael Moore`s documentary, you`ll see
it`s pretty funny the way they describe it. But you`ll see that health
care and education in all these other countries, we`ve been told for so
long that it`s impossible, it`s like we`ve been in this bad relationship
and now we have to break up with the guy because we realize we`re worth it.

We should have these things. We have to stop prioritizing war – and I
don`t like the fact she talks about Henry Kissinger as being her go to guy
for the stuff that`s happened in Libya and other things I don`t think is


HAYES: That was Sanders supporter Susan Sarandon. You can see more of our
interview in which we talk about her work with some refugees in Greece and

Still to come, Republican presidential candidates are put on the spot.
Should guns be allowed in their national convention arena. What they said
and who is behind the open carry petition, just ahead.


HAYES: Earlier today there was a very scary moment at the U.S. Capitol in
Washington, D.C. Initial reports of shots fired at the Capitol. As they
usually are, those reports were foggy and incomplete, lots of chaos. It
turns out, according to police, that man who was previously known to
security approached the Capitol screening checkpoint in the visitor`s
center, which right down there in that video you`re looking at where that
guy is looking down, and he took out what appeared to be a weapon and was
shot by a police officer.

He has since been identified as Larry Dawson, 67-year-old from Tennessee.
And sources tell NBC he had a realistic looking pistol type pellet gun.
After being rushed to the hospital he later died.

Now, the only reason this man wasn`t running around potentially with a gun
in halls of Congress itself is because there are metal detectors for every
person who enters the Capitol. It is, simply put, a gun free zone. And
it`s something that even the strident pro-gun lawmakers who work in that
building are okay with.

In fact, I`ve talked to them about it on the show. But many of those same
lawmakers will be at the Republican National Convention this summer in
Cleveland, Ohio where being pro-gun and anti-gun free zone is certainly the
majority position. The Quicken Loans Arena, which is hosting the
convention, does not allow guns inside even though Ohio is an open carry

Now there`s a petition calling on Republican candidates to speak out and
allow convention attendees to openly carry firearms inside the convention
hall this July.

All three staunchly pro-open carry candidates have now weighed in. Did
they stick to their guns? I`ll tell you in 60 seconds.


HAYES: So, almost 50,000 people who have signed on to a petition calling
for the right to openly carry firearms at the Republican National
Convention in July. It`s a tough little test to just how strongly held the
candidates hold their second amendment positions. It demands that all
three Republican presidential hopefuls all notably open-carry and anti-gun
free zone advocates urge the RNC to rectify this affront to our Second
Amendment freedoms and insist upon a suspension of the Quicken Loan Arena`s
unconstitutional gun free zone loophole to allow convention goers to bring
their firearms into the convention.

Today, when asked about the issue, Ted Cruz said he would certainly want to
get the recommendations from Secret Service.

John Kasich concurred saying “all that matter is what the Secret Service
says.” While Donald Trump said he would need to read the fine print.

Luckily for Republicans who may not welcome a potentially contested
convention with delegated armed to the teeth, but maybe hesitant to speak
out against that manifestly terrible idea, this afternoon Secret Service
let them off the hook announcing firearms will not be allowed past a
predetermined outer perimeter checkpoint.

Now, it appears the petition, which notes the arena`s no gun policy doesn`t
even begin to factor in the possibility of an ISIS terrorist attack on the
arena during the convention, may have been created more as satire than

The description for the Twitter account apparently linked to the petition
reads, quote, “speaking truth to stupid since well, since now.”

But if the goal was expert trolling and making Republicans squirm on their
interpretation of the Second Amendment and gun safety, well, well done.



sweeping anti-LGBT bill in the nation and it will not stand the test of
time or the test of federal court.


HAYES: Today, a coalition of LGBT groups and activists, including the
ACLU, said they were suing to stop the implementation of an anti-gay law
signed last week by North Carolina Republican Governor Pat McCrory, which
overrules local LGBT non-discrimination protections and explicitly limits
which bathrooms transgender people can use.

That law has been met with an outpouring of outrage and disapproval not
just from voters and activists on the street, but also from corporations,
including Apple, IBM, Google, the NBA, American Airlines, Dow Chemical and
our parent company Comcast NBC/Universal.

Now, in Georgia lawmakers passed also an anti-gay bill, a bill that like
the one in North Carolina faced widespread condemnation from the business
community, but there the Republican Governor Nathan Deal defied social
conservatives announcing today he would veto the bill.


NATHAN DEAL, GOVERNOR OF GEORGIA: I do not think that we have to
discriminate against anyone to protect the faith-based community in
Georgia. It is about the character of our state and the character of our


HAYES: Joining me now nationally syndicated sex advice columnist Dan
Savage, editorial director of the Seattle Alternative Newspaper, The

Dan, what`s your understanding of what happened in these two states in
terms of the different outcomes we got?

just say I`m for Bernie or Hillary or both, and come November I plan to
vote for the Democratic nominee whoever it is, because of the lesser of two
evils is less evil. And I don`t think Donald will bring the revolution.

What happened differently in those two states is in one state you had a
governor who is facing re-election, facing a conservative electorate and
was willing to really knife vulnerable people in his state for political

And you had a governor in Georgia who had a little bit more time to think
about it, and decided to veto this legislation under pressure, particularly
from Hollywood, a whole bunch of production companies said that they would
– and famous directors and studios said they would not produce films in
Georgia anymore if this was passed into law.

And North Carolina`s just beginning to come under the assault, the brunt of
the assault it`s going to come under from activists, from corporations,
from businesses, from its own university system. Universities have a hard
time attracting, or like to be able to attract talent. And a lot of that
talent is lesbian, gay, bi, or trans. And people are not going to move to
a state where they are not allowed to use the goddamn bathroom.

HAYES: For folks that have not been following that part of this issue,
talk for a moment about how much these forces have focused on the bathroom
as the kind of site of this political battle.

SAVAGE: They`re just repackaging old crap in a brand new bag. It used to
be early in the beginning of the gay rights movement, before it became the
LBGT civil rights movement, that social conservatives would scream and yell
about predatory gay men, predatory gay men going into bathrooms, seducing
boys, raping boys, preying on boys, and they`ve just taken that. And now,
they say, it`s predatory straight men – it`s important to emphasize that
point, they say that there`s so such thing has transwomen, that these are
straight men in dresses and their whole goal undergoing this transition is
to have access to women`s restrooms where they can then prey upon women and

But there are actually arguing that this is straight men doing this. And
it`s the same anti-gay calumny, repackaged into a anti-trans calumny and as
people get to know more trans people, as trans people come out, as we have
this fight, we will win this fight. It`s important to remember that every
time we have an anti-gay marriage referendum pass, we saw the needle move
in the direction of marriage equality. And as states like North Carolina
pass measures like this attacking trans people, it forces the national
conversation about who transpeople are and who are the predators in

There are many incidents of people being assaulted in restrooms always by
cis gendered straight men, not by transwomen.

HAYES: As someone said on Twitter, Cameron Eeposito (ph), I think, you`ve
already used a bathroom with a transperson and you were fine.

Dan Savage, thanks for your time. Always.

Up next, it`s time for the reckoning, my reckoning. Who is the blame for
Donald Trump? Do not go anywhere.


HAYES: A list of people who have been blamed for the rise of Donald Trump
is pretty darn long. It includes GOP presidential candidates like Jeb
Bush, tower political figures like Franklin Delano Roosevelt, somehow the
Buffalo Bills football team, and of course President Obama.

The New York Times has now given us two new articulations of just who is to
blame for Trump`s success. Columnist Nick Kristoff (ph), like many, puts
the blame squarely on the media writing that television in particular
handed Trump the microphone without adequately fact checking him or
rigorously examining his background.

While Nick Comfessore (ph) in a deeply reported piece, argues that GOP
elite lost its voters to Trump by ignoring their economic frustrations.

Joining me now to hash out the unified field theory of the rise of Trump is
MSNBC contributor Josh Barro, senior edtior at Business Insider; and Jess
McIntosh, spokesperson for Emily`s List, which of course has endorsed
Hillary Clinton.

So, what do you think of media argument?

JESS MCINTOSH, EMILY`S LIST SPOKESPERSON: I think that media certainly
didn`t help anything, but I`m not here to j`accuse you. I think that the
Republican Party did this and they`ve done it slowly over decades. Like, I
believe that Lee Atwater started it. I think that Newt Gingrich gave us
the tone and call your opponents bizarre weirdos and that okay if that`s
how it`s going to win.

I think Karl Rove gave us this divide the elites and pander to that base
and make them as big and powerful as they possibly can be, and no one
realized that eventually they were going to swallow everything whole.

And then you have Donald Trump himself, who I honestly, like, that man is a
phenomenon. He – if he weren`t who he is – I mean, Chris Christie has
tried this shtick. Lots of people have tried this shtick. He`s real good
at it.

JOSH BARRO, BUSINESS INSIDER: You know, I think a lot of these theories
can all be true at once.

HAYES: Yes. It`s an over determined phenomenon.

BARRO: Right, voters are for Trump some all sorts of different reasons.
Some are upset about trade, some about immigration, some have these racist
impulses that Donald Trump is finally letting them let out. These things
can all be true.

But I also – you know, we can`t let the voters off the hook. And I don`t
just mean that in the tautological way that like when somebody wins an
election it`s because people voted for him. But, you know, everybody has
impulses that they try to resist and you know you`re not supposed to eat
the second doughnut and sometimes you succeed at that, and sometimes you

Donald Trump is really good at convincing people to be bad. He`s built his
whole career on this. Even in his real estate. Like, you`re not supposed
to cover
everything in brass. You`re not suppose to go around bragging about how
much money you have. But Donald Trump does these things and makes them
seem joyful.

He talks about greed, which is a sin as a positive thing.

So, I think he`s really found a weakness in the voters as an institution

HAYES: Yes. But so here`s the argument – and I guess I`m taking up for
the purposes of the media is to blame side of this.

This study of how much – you know, he has been covered quantitatively more
than any other candidate by margins that are very difficult to find
precedent for, right, 1.9 billion in, quote, free media.

Now, the key thing I think to add to that is lots of that has been
intensely negative. And in fact, as evidence of that, look at his
favorables/unfavorables. The guy is like deeply unpopular with the general
electorate. He`s, you know, 30 points under water, which is not – so if
this was all pattycake he would not be 30 points…

MCINTOSH: I think the question who created President Trump is completely
different than who created this phenomenon that is Donald Trump right now.

I don`t think anybody would be blaming the media if that man actually won
the popular vote and the right number of votes…

HAYES: …blame the media. It`s like, can you blame it more.

MCINTOSH: America has done it. Like, at that point, yeah the media might
have – might be responsible for him having higher name ID, but they`re not
responsible for majority of the country wanting to vote for him because the
majority does not want to vote for him.

HAYES: People think it is a self-perpetuating machine. This is what I`ve
been told in angry conversations I`ve had with viewers of this program –
some of you right now sitting at home watching this yelling at the
television, is that – and I think a good analog is like Kim Kardashian.
People talk about Kim Kardashian this way. Like, she`s famous for being
famous. It`s like, well, at a certain point she is doing something.

MCINTOSH: Yeah, she`s a really smart businesswoman.

HAYES: Right, there is part of that with Trump as well.

BARRO: Yeah, I know, I mean, the same people who say the media created
Trump and by giving him all this coverage they let him get ahead, these are
people who look at that coverage and see Trump as self-evidently awful and
every extra minute that he talks, he seems worse.

The coverage – if you looked at it objectively, if you showed somebody
just the news segments and didn`t show them the polls or anything, people
would assume that this coverage was destroying him, because it is negative.

The problem is these voters, they don`t trust any institutions, including

MCINTOSH: And that`s why fact checking doesn`t matter. Pointing out that
he`s lying doesn`t matter, because the person pointing it out is not a
trustworthy person.

HAYES: But there is also this – there is also this way in which in sort
of like there is this kind of way that he`s hacked a certain part of the
competitive environment in which people need new things, and he creates new
things all the time. And that creates attention.

If the goal is to as cynically as possible manipulate attention, he has
done that incredibly well. And I don`t think the competitive news media
has done any job of resisting that even when editorially there`s some part
of them thinking they should.

MCINTOSH: To the point that the news media has become more entertainment
based, he was perfectly conditioned to come in and take it over.

So, I think to that extent, yes, the 24 hour cable network, yes all of that
did contribute to this environment where Trump could thrive.

But you`ve got to put it on him and you`ve got to put it on the fact that
voters are actually deciding.

BARRO: But the other important thing here is he`s not always wrong. A
number of the big stinks he has made in this election have been him saying
things that other people won`t say that are true, about the way that people
buy influence in politics in America. He`s staked out a position on
immigration that I quite
disagree with but that represents…

HAYES: There was actual demand and appetite for.

BARRO: Right, yeah.

HAYES: And was not being articulated in the way he was articulating it by
anyone else.

BARRO: Right. And if somebody had a more respectable way to make a less
extreme version of that position.

MCINTOSH: Build the dang fence. We ignored it. Every other Republican
have said they wanted to build the dang fence on the border. We were like,
oh, that`s cute. But he did it.

HAYES: All right, Josh Barro and Jess McIntosh, thanks for being with me
tonight. Appreciate it.

That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow show starts right now.
Good evening, Rachel.


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