All In with Chris Hayes, 3/25/2016

Michael Ware, Linda Sarsour, Gabe Sherman, Betsy Woodruff, Ben Jealous

Date: March 25, 2016
Guest: Michael Ware, Linda Sarsour, Gabe Sherman, Betsy Woodruff, Ben


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN –

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This garbage does not belong
in politics.

HAYES: Just when you thought things couldn`t get any lower.

CRUZ: It is a smear that has come from Donald Trump and his henchmen.

HAYES: The incredible new depths of the Republican primary as the stakes
of Donald Trump and Ted Cruz come into high relief.

Plus, Donald Trump`s stunning admission to “The Washington Post.”

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I buy a slightly smaller than
large glove, OK?

HAYES: Hillary Clinton continues her pivot.

JIMMY KIMMEL, COMEDIAN: Try to have some fun. This is like your dream.
Pretend you`re enjoying yourself.

HAYES: As crowds keep flocking to Bernie.

little bird doesn`t know it.


HAYES: Tonight, why Elizabeth Warren is suddenly making waves.

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: I`m still cheering Bernie on.

HAYES: All that and journalist Michael Ware on his new documentary on the
birth of ISIS.

MICHAEL WARE, JOURNALIST: Oh, my God, I`ve not seen this.

HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

If there is one single solitary lesson in this campaign so far,
particularly on the Republican side, it`s that whenever you think it`s hit
rock bottom, there`s always a new low. Whenever you think you`ve found the
final Russian nesting doll ignominy, there`s another one there.

And today was no different. Ted Cruz today responding to a “National
Enquirer” story, one that has not been confirmed by any other outlet or any
named sources or any reproducible documentation, a story that claimed
private investigators are investigating allegation that Cruz had several
extramarital affairs.

This afternoon, he said the allegations were completely false and


CRUZ: Let me be clear: this “National Enquirer” story is garbage. It is
complete and utter lies. It is a tabloid smear. And it is a smear that
has come from Donald Trump and his henchmen.


HAYES: The senator from Texas went on to blame Trump`s long-time former
aide Roger Stone, who was quoted in the “Enquirer” piece for planting the

Trump responded, asserting his campaign was not involved, saying in part,
quote, “I have nothing to do with `The National Enquirer` and unlike Lyin`
Ted Cruz, I do not surround myself with political hacks and henchmen and
then pretend total innocence. Ted Cruz`s problem with `The National
Enquirer` is his and his alone, and while they were right about O.J.
Simpson, John Edwards and many others, I certainly hope they are not lying
about lying Ted Cruz.”

While Donald Trump may have had nothing to do with “The National Enquirer”
story, he has had quite a relationship with the magazine and its CEO, the
Dickensian named David Pecker. In 2013, Trump tweeted, quote, “Time
Magazine should definitely pick David Pecker to run things over there.
He`d make it exciting and win awards.”

Two years later, he wrote an exclusive column for the tabloid. Earlier
this month, the paper actually endorsed Trump saying, “Trump must be

But if “The National Enquirer`s” totally unsubstantiated allegations
dominating the campaign trail wasn`t enough, Ted Cruz`s campaign manager
this afternoon questioned Trump`s mental health, tweeting, quote, “Missing,
#sleazyDonald. Why no events in four days; none planned for 8. Ever had
psychological eval? What is hiding in medical records. Exclamation point.
Release, exclamation point. Why is everyone tweeting like Donald Trump?”

Donald Trump followed by retweeting someone saying, #lyingTed blames real
Donald Trump for so many things I am starting to think he is having a
mental health crisis.

Meanwhile, the real estate mogul`s connection to David Pecker, the CEO of
“Enquirer”, have alienated some of his biggest supporters. Today, Michael
Savage, the right-wing radio host urged Trump to distance himself from the


MICHAEL SAVAGE, RADIO HOST: I go where the truth is. I`ve supported Cruz
– I mean, I`ve supported Trump and probably still will. But if he won`t
disavow this guy Pecker and this story, I may withdraw my support from
anyone in this campaign, I`ll tell you right now.


HAYES: Joining me now, Gabe Sherman, national affairs editor at “New York
Magazine”, who has written in the past about Donald Trump`s relationship
with “The National Enquirer.”

And, Gabe, I was actually reading your work that revealed these connections
to me. I had no idea about – that Trump and Pecker went back as far as
they do.

GABE SHERMAN, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: Yes. It`s a fascinating relationship.
And it really is another window into how Donald Trump has used his
understanding of the New York media to sort of short-circuit this political
campaign and call on these relationships and really use it to his

HAYES: The Trump campaign of course says they had nothing to do with this
piece. Do you find that credible?

SHERMAN: Well, I think – I think both sides can kind of – it`s a win-
win. They can deny it. Although my reporting I`ve heard from sources
inside the David Pecker has told the staff not to write negative articles
on Donald Trump.

So, whether or not he`s spoon-fed these rumors to the “National Enquirer”
it`s clear that these two men are friends and that the coverage reflects
the “Enquirer`s” favorable treatment of Trump when you look at the way it`s
covered the other candidate. It`s gone after Ben Carson. Today,
obviously, it`s gone after Ted Cruz. It`s gone after Jeb Bush in the past.
So, really, the coverage speaks for itself.

HAYES: And we should also put this in a broader context, which is that
Trump is basically a creature of tabloid media, has been since he was a
kind of young heir.


HAYES: And also is someone who is on close personal terms with a great
many large and powerful media figures.

SHERMAN: Of course. And I think this is just another example of how
Donald Trump is rewriting the rules of American politics.

You know, every other presidential candidate would run away from a tabloid
story. Donald Trump runs towards them. He loves this stuff. Look at the
way he`s been engaging Ted Cruz on Twitter. Look at the way he goaded Ted
Cruz and tweeted that he would, quote, “spill the beans” on his wife.

This is the terrain that Donald Trump wants to play on. He is comfortable
in the mud. And other candidates who try to get down in there with him
just flail around and slosh around. Trump is the only one who can stay on
balance down in the muck.

HAYES: Yes, but he stays on balance but the problem of course is that it
also does hurt him. It hurt him not in the short run project he has of
securing the Republican nomination, although I think it does hurt him a
little bit there, and we should all keep in mind this is heading into
Wisconsin, which is neck and neck. But it does hurt him in his favorables.
I mean, it turns out that when you play the heel the audience starts to
boo. When you play the difficult house member in the reality show who`s
not there to make friends, you become a villain.

SHERMAN: Yes, that is true. I think the unfavorables, his standing with
women, obviously there are some longer-term liabilities he has if he does
get the nomination going into the general election.

Although I do think it`s another example, just once again, how Donald Trump
is a lot smarter and savvier of the mechanics about the way our media
culture works. He understands the American media in a way that no other
modern presidential candidate has. And whether or not this gambit is
successful, I think the fact that we`re talking about it today is another
reason that he is sort of on new terrain here. Something we have not seen

HAYES: What does he understand? What is the key insight he has about the
American media?

SHERMAN: Well, he understands that conflict and controversy are not
necessarily liabilities. He actually stokes them. He knows that
reporters, producers, anchors need storylines. At his heart, Donald Trump
is a producer, and he is producing this show.

HAYES: What he gets, and I`ll say this as someone who works in the media,
he gets more than anyone else, the desperation that comes from a media
environment that is more competitive now than it has ever been. The
competition for attention across all spheres, not just in media but in
politics for everyone, attention is the most valuable and scarcest
commodity in the 21st century, and he understands that I think better than
anyone I`ve ever seen.

SHERMAN: Without a question. I think that is why his campaign has from
the moment he announced been the topic of conversation, because he`s
willing to go places that no one else is willing to go.

HAYES: Gabe Sherman, thanks for being here. Appreciate it.

SHERMAN: Good to be with you.

HAYES: Today, Donald Trump did not have any public events, instead
weighing in on the day`s events via statement.

Cruz, on the other hand, had three events in Wisconsin, turning his
attention to that winner-take-all primary election. With the latest
polling has Cruz and Trump essentially tied with less than two weeks to go
and 42 delegates at stake. Trump now has 752 delegates while Ted Cruz is
at 470, and there are a whole bunch of different models from different
sources and platforms that show that basically Trump is right on the cusp
of being able to make it to that magic number of 1,237 and clinch the
nomination outright.

But a winner-take-all loss in Wisconsin would do quite a bit to bump him
off track.

Joining me now: Joy Reid, MSNBC national correspondent, Betsy Woodruff,
politics reporter at “The Daily Beast”.

Betsy, let me start with you. You`ve got a byline in a piece that
basically says there were a bunch of people looking into the subject of the
“National Enquirer” today, even Breitbart, who refused to run it because it
was too thinly sourced.

BETSY WOODRUFF, THE DAILY BEAST: Exactly. And it was kind of funny. We
thought about writing this story several months ago but we didn`t want to
broadcast baseless rumors that had no connection to reality by saying, hey,
these rumors are going around. So, when the story broke and when it really
blew up on Twitter today, we thought, all right, let`s pull the trigger.

The reality is operatives who oppose Cruz and in certain cases operatives
who are supporting Rubio, they`re not part of his campaign, had been
pushing this story for at least six months. They`ve pushed it to almost –
to a significant number of major media outlets in this country. Of course,
it would be a huge scoop if it was true. Put it in the realm of true
category. But nobody was willing to even touch it. Except of course for
“National Enquirer”, and here we are.

HAYES: I have to say, Joy. I`m trying to figure out how to cover this.
Take people behind the curtain here.


HAYES: When you`re a political reporter, people come up to you. Sources
come up to you. People e-mail you, in bars. People – rumors about a
politician having affairs, there is not a single politician that I`ve not
heard scuttlebutt about. There`s a rumor, oh – even things like oh, that
shoe`s about to drop. It`s going to come out.

REID: Yes.

HAYES: The fact of the matter is rumors are rumors for a reason.
Reporting is reporting for a reason. And there`s a distance between two.

REID: No, absolutely. But here`s the problem, is that we are no longer
the gatekeepers of that stuff, right? Even if you go all the way back to
the Gary Hart era where you have these things come out, there`s some sort
of a funnel that it goes through that is called the mainstream media that
can decide what`s worth covering.

By the time I heard about this, it had been – the hashtag had been used
more than 300,000 times on Twitter. Social media is already advancing
something into the atmosphere that is not really even controlled. The
problem for Ted Cruz is that it doesn`t matter whether or not it gets
picked up by a mainstream media source, whether or not people run with it
or not. It`s in the ecosystem, while he`s in Wisconsin trying to campaign.

HAYES: Right. And I will say this, Betsy. I think part of the reason
that this story achieved the level it had today was because he on the
record addresses it, right? So, in some ways that gives everyone a news
story, right? Because then you talk about it, you can`t talk about it
without the predicate for it.

At the same time, Betsy, he is in an impossible situation for the reason
that Joy said. I can`t believe how sympathetic I find myself to Ted Cruz
on this Friday evening. But he has to sort of address it.

And I do think the context of Wisconsin`s important here. I mean, this is
actually a real like nail-biter battle. And I think the Trump people think
they could lose it.

WOODRUFF: Certainly, without a doubt. And the Cruz folks, their view is
that as long as they`re talking about policy and as long as they`re talking
about concrete issues, they`re in good shape. Remember particularly in
Waukesha County in Wisconsin, which is Scott Walker territory, Cruz is
doing quite well. A lot of the conservative infrastructure in Wisconsin,
which might be better organized and more mobilized than the conservative
infrastructure, almost any other state, we`re seeing those folks align
behind Cruz. Charlie Sikes who`s perhaps the most influential conservative
radio host in Wisconsin, a big Cruz booster.

So, the stars are kind of aligning in Cruz`s favor. He`s slashed Trump`s
lead over the past few weeks. But now, of course, all of the sudden, Trump
seems to at least be enjoying this sex scandal story because it undercuts
Cruz`s basic appeal, which is Cruz can say, I`m a good guy, I`m like you, I
share your faith, I share your values.

If this story is true and if the doubt is effectively introduced, it gets
tougher for him.

HAYES: You know, I`ve got to say this is a theme now, which is you have
someone who acts in such sort of anti-social ways I guess is the politest
way I can describe Trump`s behavior, right? Monstrously would be the
uncharitable way to describe the behavior sometimes.

You have someone who acts that way towards people. It makes them sort of
sympathetic. You lose sight of the fact that Ted Cruz from a political
perspective would be if he were the nominee so off the charts in terms of
how extreme he is. I think very difficult to elect in a general election,
holds a variety of views that I personally find deeply objectionable, was
talking about surveilling Muslims. But because it ends up – it does
becomes the psychodrama every day, I do wonder if it does have this Overton
window effect where Ted Cruz seems like he`s a sort of stand-up guy and
he`s not Donald Trump.

REID: Maybe. Except Ted Cruz doesn`t have much of a rear guard. Ted Cruz
rose to fame as the tea partier who came to Washington to burn down the
Republican establishment, shut down the government, with no regard for the
brand of his own party. And remember the two groups that are in place to
come to Cruz`s defense, the two groups upon which he`s building his Trump
alternative, are evangelical Christians – but not just any evangelical
Christians, white evangelical Christians, frequent churchgoers.

So, the most religious of the evangelical Christians and movement
conservatives. The sort of Erick Erickson wing of the party that says we
need to put a real movement guy in.

He is completely now being distracted from that movement conservative brand
by this story because now he`s having to sling mud like a tenth-grader with
Donald Trump, which you can`t win against Donald Trump. And then the other
part of it, the evangelical piece, any grain of doubt in a state like
Wisconsin that has a significant evangelical base, that is part of why
Scott Walker`s popular, Scott Walker is a extremely doctrinaire religious
conservative. Any crack in that gives Trump the opening.

That is the problem with this story. And we weren`t talking about him
being at Lambeau Field today. And that`s a problem for ked Cruz.

HAYES: Or getting a big Green Bay Packer endorsement as I saw right before
I went to air.

Betsy, I guess my question to you is, in what kind of shape is that Cruz
campaign right now?

WOODRUFF: Spirits seem to be decent. You know, not – people are nervous,
of course. It`s not to say it`s a stress-less situation.

But things in Wisconsin look good. One source of confidence for them, the
sense that I get-s that they`re very well-connected with conservative
activists. They`re connected with a lot of party leaders at the state
level. Which means if this goes to a contested convention, which, of
course, is their only road to the nomination – speaking realistically –
they think they have an edge there just because of those relationships.

As Joy was saying, the hardcore movement conservatives, people who door
knock, people who are really invested and have been invested in
conservative politics for years, those folks are much more on board with
Cruz than they are with Trump. Cruz`s team thinks that that`s going to
help them out if we get to a contested convention.

That said, they`ve got to do well in Wisconsin. And this story is not
great for them. It`s not what they want to be dealing with. There might
be some positive backlash, whatever the good version of that is. But it
doesn`t help.

HAYES: I do think people have been wrong so often talking about backlash
and beat Trump and all that stuff. I am a believer that there`s backlash.
I`m just going to put that out there. And I think there will be some.

Joy Reid, Betsy Woodruff, thanks for joining me.

REID: Thank you.

HAYES: Still ahead, Bernie Sanders` unique position in the Democratic race
and the comment from Elizabeth Warren that has everyone talking.

Plus, Donald Trump opens up about his harrowing fight to prove his hands
are perfectly normal. Lucky for us, it`s all on tape at length.

Later, the accidental voting bloc. How anti-Muslim rhetoric from both
Republican front-runners is driving Muslim Americans to vote.

Those stories and more ahead.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think Bernie Sanders can still win. Is it time for
him to consider dropping out or should he stay in all the way to the

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Bernie`s – he`s out there. He
fights from the heart. This is who Bernie is. And he has put the right
issues on the table for the Democratic Party and for the country in
general. So I`m still cheering Bernie on.


HAYES: Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren says she thinks Bernie
Sanders should stay right where he is, campaigning to be the Democratic
nominee for president.

But the current president is reportedly, at least privately insinuating
otherwise. According to “The New York Times”, the president has told
donors that the time is coming to unite behind Hillary Clinton. While he
did not explicitly call on Mr. Sanders to quit the race, a private fund-
raiser last week, some attendees took his remark as a signal to Mr. Sanders
that perpetuating his campaign could only help Republicans recapture the
White House.

There`s no doubt that Sanders` path to victory right now is an uphill climb
but at this point in the race, it`s certainly not impossible. Right now,
Hillary Clinton is up by nearly 300 pledged delegates, meaning that Sanders
will need to win around 64 percent of the remaining 2,000 or so pledged
delegates to win.

His best shot at getting there is in caucus states where he`s already beat
Hillary Clinton seven out of nine times. And three states hold caucuses
tomorrow – Alaska, Hawaii, and Washington. A total of 142 pledged
delegates are up for grabs.

And on April 5th, there`s the Wisconsin primary, where he`ll be battling
for 86 pledged delegates. While Sanders` odds of getting the nomination
have diminished in the last month, his grassroots momentum has not slowed
down one bit.

Thousands showed up for a rally in Portland, Oregon, this afternoon. He
has a rally tonight at Safeco Field, the baseball stadium where the Seattle
Mariners play. And if Bernie Sanders doesn`t make it to the finish line,
he seems recently to perhaps be starting a kind of negotiation over what
changes, he wants to see to the party to get his endorsement.


by the way, we are in this thing to win. Please understand that.

What is the Democratic establishment going to do for us? Are they going to
create a 50-state party? Are they going to welcome into the Democratic
Party the working class of this country and young people? Or is it going
to be a party of the upper middle class and the cocktail crowd and the
heavy campaign contributors?


HAYES: Sanders today had a bit of an interruption at his rally in
Portland, though unlike other campaign events disrupted by hecklers or
protesters, this one was enthusiastically received by the crowd. We`re
going to play that must-see tape for you after this short break.



SANDERS: Now, you see, this little bird doesn`t know it. Oh –


I know it doesn`t look like it, but that bird is really a dove asking us
for world peace!


No more wars.


HAYES: In case you were wondering why the #birdysanders is the number one
trending topic on Twitter right now, now you know.

Joining me now is Ben Jealous, former president NAACP and Bernie Sanders
supporter, and Joan Walsh, national affairs correspondent for “The Nation,”
MSNBC political analyst, and Hillary Clinton supporter, author of a new
piece titled, “What`s wrong with Bernie Sanders` strategy.”

And I want you to answer that question. But, first, I just want to note
that that moment, is there a spiritual and tonal opposite to an American
candidate sliming a photo of the wife of his opponent? It is the little
bird joyously landing on the podium in the middle –


HAYES: We all needed that.

WALSH: I mean, when Bernie Sanders replaces Cruz sex scandal as the main
hashtag, there is a God.

BEN JEALOUS, BERNIE SANDERS SUPPORTER: I mean, frankly, it really speaks
to the spirit of his rallies, having spoken at many of them. And to be out
there sometimes in very tough conservative parts of the country, a tenth of
the crowd might be in camouflage.

And the biggest – when I speak before him the biggest applause line is
always when I say, you know, Mr. Trump, there is something more powerful
than fear and violence and hatred. It is love and unity. Black, white,
camouflage, no camouflage. Everybody goes crazy. That`s what folks are
yearning for. I think that`s what that bird wanted too.

HAYES: I want you to enunciate your strategy, what you think the problem
with his strategy is. Because one of the things I think has been striking
is we`ve been focusing on consolidation or lack thereof on the Republican
side, right?

WALSH: Right.

HAYES: So, you got the situation which Trump can`t seem to break 40
percent. Trump is a very different – sui generis.

On the Democratic side, it`s been interesting. I mean, Hillary Clinton was
the favorite, she continues to be the favorite, she`s up 300 pledged
delegates, but it is not the case we`ve seen some sort of like cascading
domino effect. You saw this in 2004.

Kerry won and everyone was like –

WALSH: It`s over.

HAYES: – we`re done, we`re getting in line.

WALSH: Right.

HAYES: People are anticipating, the Clinton campaign anticipates sanders
will win. He`s still getting huge wins.

WALSH: Some more states.

HAYES: In the next three days.

WALSH: Oh, yes.

JEALOUS: Like we did a few days ago.

HAYES: Right. What is the flaw in the strategy here?

WALSH: I think the flaw in the strategy – it actually reminds me
something of 2008 in that Hillary –

HAYES: Reversed.

WALSH: Hillary Clinton wouldn`t go away. But the other really weird thing
about what`s flipped is that in 2008, Barack Obama was getting the vast
majority of black voters. In 2016, it`s Hillary Clinton. And it started
out that way.

And I think that Senator Sanders did not anticipate the difficulty of
introducing himself to the African-American voter and also the extent to
which African-American voters now are actually pretty – not pretty loyal,
very loyal to the Democratic Party. And so, he continues, although he`s
running in the Democratic primary and I support, that I`ve always said that
is a good thing, and I also continue to say he should continue to run.

I think that his constant carping about the party, his ambivalence about
the party, not having been a Democrat, and even now as he runs to be the
party leader, frequently putting the party down, is problematic with black
voters for him.

HAYES: What do you think about that?

JEALOUS: It`s strange as the former president of the NAACP. I`ll just say
that, given that statement.

WALSH: But you loved my book “What`s the Matter with White People.”


HAYES: It`s empirically true. As a matter of math it is true.

JEALOUS: What is true is what happened on Super Tuesday really hasn`t
happened since. What you`ve seen is as we`ve moved into the Midwest, black
support has shot up way over Super Tuesday. And the trend line is up. And
the Clinton campaign doesn`t want to talk about the trend line.

WALSH: Ben, I don`t know what –

JEALOUS: Hold on for a second. Just hold on for a second, please.

The – when you listen to voters, and I really believe you have to listen
before you lead. There are two big camps in our community. One is black
voters 60 and above.

HAYES: Right.

JEALOUS: The other is black voters 30 and below. The ones 30 and below
are the biggest group of supporters in the black community for Bernie by

HAYES: That`s true.

JEALOUS: And the 60 and above for Clinton by far. When you listen to them
the ones 60 and above talk about the Clintons, they talk about the Clinton
years. They remember those years as good years. When it felt like all
boats were rising.

The ones who are 30 and below, they may or may not remember the Clinton
years, but what they really know is what they`ve learned. And what they`ve
learned is that the struggles that we`re dealing with now, a lot of them go
back to policies that were passed and signed by President Clinton then.

So, the doubling of extreme poverty, the doubling of the incarceration
rate, the evisceration of Glass-Steagall and what that yielded for our
country. And so, you know, that`s – I think the difference really is
young voters – there`s a great piece in “Rolling Stone” today by a young
voter and maybe why we should pay attention to them. In the end, they`re
totally focused on the future.

One thing that surprised me that comes up again and again is they see her
as the biggest hawk in this race. And they`re very afraid of a country
that stays in endless war after endless war.

HAYES: What do you think about the generational thing, which is something
that is both black and white, right?

WALSH: Absolutely.

HAYES: Take race off the table for a second. The largest cross-tab
difference in the race on either side is this generation.

WALSH: Absolutely. But she is still winning with black millennials in
every poll I`ve seen.

HAYES: That is true.

JEALOUS: She lost in Michigan. I was there.

HAYES: We should also say this about black voters, the cross-tab, to
establish it. According to exit data he won by about 30 points in
Michigan, which was much narrower than the 50 or of 0 points that had been
in places like Louisiana –

JEALOUS: Similar to Ohio, Oklahoma –

WALSH: She won 29 percent of the black vote in Michigan. He won 29
percent in Illinois.


JEALOUS: Do the cross-tabs by age. That`s what we`re –

HAYES: How do you understand – he laid out on argument –

JEALOUS: Do the cross-tabs by age in South Carolina.

HAYES: Why that is in terms of South Carolina –

WALSH: She still won but –

HAYES: What do you think the argument is?

WALSH: I think Ben is largely right about why that is. I think also
younger people, it`s true of younger white people, younger people are
extremely angry about the levels of student debt and the low levels of
opportunity. They don`t – I don`t know what they know about the Clinton
years. But they know that these years they haven`t gotten what they hoped
for. Also, young people really are excited about change and change in a
big way. It`s true that older people think it takes more time.

HAYES: I think one big question coming out of this in terms of
consolidation and in terms of young voters is making an argument to young
voters that the system is rigged and can be unrigged because I think that -
- the experience – Bill de Blasio said this to me in an interview the
other day, which I though was really interesting. He`s a Clinton

He said, look, a lot of people just experienced nothing but basically a
system that seems fundamentally broken.

WALSH: Right.

HAYES: And that`s going to be I think the challenge in the general for
whoever`s the nominee about sort of making that case.

Ben Jealous and Joan Walsh, thank you so much for your time.

JEALOUS: Thank you. Thank you.

HAYES: Still to come, after listening to the frightening anti-Muslim
rhetoric from the two Republican front-runners, Muslim-Americans are
coordinating a response. What that will look like, ahead.


HAYES: Donald Trump wants you to know that he has zero issues with the
size of his hands. And to show you he has zero issues with the size of his
hands he will talk about the size of his hands at length at an editorial
board meeting ostensibly about foreign and domestic affairs. That`s
exactly what happened the other day when trump met with the editorial board
of The Washington Post. Trump insisting. quote, “my hands are normal

So normal Trump talked about them for about four minutes, as one does when
they have normal hands.

Trump made it clear he did not care for Marco Rubio`s campaign trail jabs
on the size of his hands. And what it seemed to suggest about the size of
another part of his anatomy.

You see, according to Trump, Rubio`s remarks really created a lot of
problems with Trump fans out on the stump.


TRUMP: And what happened, I was on line shaking hands with supporters.
And one of the supporters got up and he said, Mr. Trump, you have strong
hands. You have good-sized hands. And then another one would say, oh, you
have great hands, Mr. Trump, I had no idea.

I said, what do you mean?

He said, I thought you were like deformed. I thought you had small hands.

I had 50 people – is that a correct statement, Hope? I mean, people were
writing, how are Mr. Trump`s hands? My hands are fine. You know, my hands
are normal, slightly large, actually. In fact, I buy a slightly smaller
than large glove. Okay?


HAYES: A slightly, slightly smaller than large glove, okay?

Trump also bemoaned the most recent cover of The New Yorker seen here
characterizing the illustration as, quote “a hand with little fingers
coming out of the stem.” He insisted he had, quote, “no choice but to
respond to Rubio`s attacks on Trump`s hand size at the presidential debate.
Earlier this month a statement that required a follow-up question.


RUTH MARCUS, WASHINGTON POST: You chose to raise it during the debate.
Can you explain why you had no choice?

TRUMP: Yeah, because I don`t want people to go around thinking that I have
a problem. I`m telling you, Ruth, I had so many people. I would say 25,
30 people would tell me – every time I`d shake people`s hands, oh, you
have nice hands. You have good hands. Why shouldn`t I?

And by the way, by saying that I solved the problem. Nobody questions…

MARCUS: You told us…

TRUMP: I even held up my hand. I said look, take a look at that hand.



HAYES: For those that who are bullish on Trump`s general election chances
the key argument is basically that he is able, or will be able, to mobilize
and turn out voters who have become alienated and apathetic, particularly
white working-class voters, or the so-called missing white voters, as Sean
Trend describes, a large portion of the demographic change we saw in the
2012 electorate was not due to increased turnout but rather a drop in white

One of the tactics Trump has used to animate and turn out his supporters
has been a brand of nationalist and xenophobic rhetoric. And the thing
about that kind of political mobilization is that there is no action
without an equal and opposite reaction.

For instance, one of the groups that`s been particularly targeted by Trump
are of course Muslims with outright lies about cheering Muslims in Jersey
City when the World Trade Center came down to a steady diet of


TRUMP: I want to surveil – I want surveillance of these people that are
coming in, the Trojan horse. I want to know who the hell they are.

Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims
entering the United States until our country`s representatives can figure
out what the hell is going on.

I think Islam hates us.


HAYES: I think it`s fair to say that this is the most offensive sustained
bout of bigotry targeted at a specific American religious group by a
prominent public figure in recent memory.

And it turns out they`re not having it. Plans are now under way to
register and mobilize American Muslims as described in this New York Times
piece, although Muslims make up only about 1 percent of the population of
the United States, civil rights groups have set a goal of registering a
million new voters.

Now, this is a constituency that prior to 9/11 tended to lean Republican,
even voted for George W. Bush in the 2000 election by a wide margin. But
since 9/11 that voting population has tended to vote for Democrats, a 70
percent affiliation with Democrats in a 2012 Pew research study with
similar margins in
presidential and midterm elections since then.

Particularly when joined with other voting blocs with majorities viewing
Trump negatively like Latinos and women, it has the potential to become a
pretty potent coalition.

Joining me now is Linda Sarsour, executive director Arab American
Association of New York. Great to have you here.


HAYES: I remember reporting on the the Muslim Republican caucus in 2004 on
that – at that convention. And there was a lot of hand wringing, because
these were folks who were – a lot of them Pakistani-American doctors and
Egyptian-American engineers who are sort of kind of rock-ribbed
conservatives who just didn`t know what the heck was going on. We`ve now
seen them completely move away from the Tepublican Party.

SARSOUR: Oh, absolutely.

Many Arab-Americans and Muslim Americans have been Republican mostly for
social issues and conservative family values and other issues like that.
But the Republican Party has literally I think ostracized the entire
Republican Muslim population.

And if there are some that you might hear about here and there, they`re
like literally one-man shows, maybe five Republicans might vote in the

But the Democrats also aren`t perfect. And I think that we are leaning
towards the Democrats, but we`re not really loyal to the Democratic Party
either because they also, many of them on the state level and some members
of congress have engaged in Islamophobia as well.

But we`re fired up. Donald Trump is firing up a particular class of
voters, and he`s also firing us up. We`re voting for those that see us as
a community, for those that respect us. And we`re going to vote against
those who demonize and vilify us.

HAYES: Are you going to – are there actual – is there evidence that
there`s actual mobilization happening?

SARSOUR: Oh, absolutely.

I mean, Michigan. No one – there was no poll, even Nate Silver himself
who`s supposed to be the most accurate pollster did not see that coming,
and that Bernie Sanders, a Jewish candidate, rode the Muslim and Arab-
American vote in a place like Dearborn and you look at a place like
Illinois, very large Muslim population, very close for Bernie Sanders.

You look at places like Missouri. And know – I will tell you this, the
overwhelming majority of young American Muslims are on the – we`re feeling
the Bern. Bernie Sanders. And I think that`s important…

HAYES: Why? What`s that about?

SARSOUR: Bernie Sanders has a approach for us especially on issues of
Israel-Palestine, just very balanced. He`s sincere. He`s authentic. He
doesn`t read prompters. He`s – we just feel that he`s – President Obama
took seven years to go to a mosque into his presidency. Bernie Sanders has
visited mosques across the country. He has met with Muslim leaders. He`s
had Muslim surrogates speaking at his rallies. And he`s allowing us to
march to the polls unapologetically Muslim.

HAYES: Do you – I`ve asked you this before, and in some ways it`s only
gotten worse. I want to ask you again. The rhetoric that we`re seeing,
can you be – what`s the best thing that can happen out of this I guess is
my question.

SARSOUR: I mean, the best thing that`s happening out of it is that our
community is saying enough is enough, we will not continue to be
scapegoated, we will not allow Donald Trump and Ted Cruz to scapegoat us
and our communities. And we`re joining allyship with Latinos and African-
Americans and white progressive and Jewish progressive in coming together
and organizing. I mean, we`ve been infiltrating and organizing against
Trump rallies. We`re – there`s one coming up in New York that we`re going
to come and say hello to Mr. Trump and not welcome him into his own city.

But I`m so proud of young Muslim Americans who are not retreating and
standing up and saying I`m unapologetically Muslim. I`m not going to be
ashamed to be Muslim. I`m not going to apologize for being Muslim and I`m
living in this country and I`m going to participate in the democratic
process, and that`s why we live here and that`s why we`re Americans.

HAYES: Linda Sarsour, it is always such a pleasure to hear from you.
Thank you for coming in. I really appreciate it.

SARSOUR: Thank you so much.

HAYES: Still ahead, a journalist sent to Iraq for what was supposed to be
three weeks ends up staying for seven years. Michael Ware has a new
documentary coming out about his experience. Shot on his own handheld
camera and he joins me to talk about it ahead.


MICHAEL WARE, FILMMAKER: That`s my breathing. That`s all I`m doing.



HAYES: Got a disturbing story to tell you out of my own Brooklyn, New York
involving the arrest of an African-American postal worker on duty by four
plain clothes police officers. Last week, 27-year-old Glenn Grays was
reportedly getting out of his mail truck to deliver a package when he
noticed a car making a sharp turn onto the street where his truck was

As The New York Times reports, Grays shouted at the driver climbing back up
the steps to avoid getting sideswiped. The black car, in Mr. Gray`s
telling, came tearing back his way in reverse. The driver said to him, Mr.
Grays recounted, “I have the right of way because I`m law enforcement.”

Police then approached Grays as he arrived at an apartment building to
deliver the package. And onlookers started filming.

Video shows Grays getting handcuffed by plainclothes police officers,
frisked and taken to the unmarked car. Officers repeatedly tell Grays to
stop resisting arrest even though the video shows absolutely no evidence of

The Times reporting Grays says that he was then placed in the back seat of
the unmarked car with his hands cuffed without a seat belt, compelling him
to leave the mail truck unattended.

The driver who turned around to taunt him hit the vehicle in front of them,
Grays said, causing him to bang his shoulder against the front seat.

Grays, who is engaged to a New York City police officer he met on his
delivery route, was issued a summons for disorderly conduct and was then
released. The NYPD says the incident is under review.

And Brooklyn Borough President Eric Adams, himself a former police officer,
says his office is looking into the matter.

Quote, “I believe there were federal violations. Number one, leaving that
truck unsecured,” the mail truck that is. “Number two, interrupting the
delivery of mail. There are clear NYPD procedures when you`re arresting a
federal employee,” he said. “We don`t know if even those basic procedures
were followed.”


HAYES: New details tonight in the Brussels terror attacks with authorities
confirming that DNA from 24-year-old Jajim Laachraoui, one of the suicide
bombers at the airport, was found on a suicide belt at the Bataclan music
venue in Paris following the terror attack there four months ago.

A dozen suspects were detained last night and today in raids in Belgium,
France, and Germany with explosions and gunfire heard on the streets of

In one dramatic scene in the neighborhood of Schaerbeek, Belgian special
forces shot a suspect in the leg at a tram stop and coaxed a young girl
away from the scene before deploying a bomb disposal robot.

Also today, U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter announced that ISIS`s finance
minister, who went by the name Jaji Imam, a senior leader in the terror
group, had been killed during an operation this week.

The Pentagon also confirmed the killing of another top ISIS leader, Omar al
Shashani in an earlier operation.


eliminating ISIL`s cabinet. Indeed, the U.S. military killed several key
ISIL terrorists this week. These leaders have been around for a long time.
They are senior. They`re experienced. And so eliminating them is an
important objective and achieves an important result.

But they will be replaced and we`ll continue to go after their leadership.


HAYES: When we come back, I`m going to speak with the man who spent seven
years covering the Iraq War who has a new documentary illustrating the
massive difference between what you hear from politicians and the stark
reality of what you see on the ground. That`s next.



WARE: For the Marines, nothing in this city is quite what it seems. A
family man with a phone, wires, rubber tubing, all possible bomb-making
equipment, gunshot residue on his hands.

UNIDENIFIED MALE: …like that color. He`s got the specs.


It`s definitely been firing a weapon in the last couple days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: XO, what`s going on?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: About 100 meters down, there were two guys turkey
baking (ph). So, they did that two or three times.


WARE: What kind of day is this?



HAYES: It`s a clip from the documentary “Only the Dead See the End of
War,”which debuts Monday night on HBO. And joining me now is the man
behind that film Michael Ware who starting in 2003 spent seven years
covering the war in Iraq for TIME and CNN where he used a handheld camera
to capture hundreds of hours of footage of what was happening on the

Michael, it`s great to have you here.

Just coming over the wires, Iraqi security officials say a suicide bomber
has attacked a football stadium south of Baghdad killing 29, wounding 60.
It looks like ISIS is claiming responsibility for this.

WARE: Of course they are. Yeah.

HAYES: And this is, it struck me when I was in Brussels, ISIS released an
infographic of their martyrdom operations for the week and there were 12.
And the only one I knew about…

WARE: Was Brussels.

HAYES: There had been 11 of that happening throughout Syria and Iraq.

WARE: Look, it`s a constant drumbeat of death that`s going on in Iraq and
Syria. You know, what is extraordinary for us, because of the size of the
carnage in Paris or the shocking nature of the most recent attacks in
Brussels, that`s the Iraqis` almost daily life. And no one outside of the
country really cares. And no one outside of the country is really keeping

I remember there was a day in Baghdad at the height of the war, you know,
the man who created the Islamic State unleashed 11 bombings in that one
city in one day alone. And it hasn`t got that frenetic pace now, but the
blood continues to flow, you know, a couple of times a week.

HAYES: The film sort of looks at two things. One of the things, the sort
of main narrative arc is about Abu Musab al Zarqawi.

WARE: Yes.

HAYES: Who in the pantheon of terrorist figures is possibly the most
brutal and savage of them all.

WARE: Oh, without a shadow of a doubt. You know, this is a man – because
look, this is the man who created the Islamic State.

HAYES: Which was al Qaeda in Iraq when he created it.

WARE: No. It was something before that.

HAYES: Oh, that`s right.

WARE: The Islamic state has had like four or five different name changes.
It`s had four different leaders. It all began with Zarqawi. Let`s never
forget that we`re the ones who unwittingly and inadvertently unleashed the
Islamic State upon ourselves and upon…

HAYES: …on the world.

WARE: …the world with the invasion of Iraq.

Now, no one could have seen that coming. It was impossible to predict.
But it`s a direct result.

Now, Zarqawi had a vision of holy war that was so barbaric, so violent, and
so unrelenting that he terrified Osama bin Laden. And in fact, they were

HAYES: And we have correspondences essentially from al Qaeda central
saying you are a psychopath, cut it the hell out.

WARE: Absolutely. The current leader of al Qaeda, Ayman al Zawahiri,
wrote an open letter to Zarqawi saying, you know, bless your work but dial
down the carnage. And each time that happened he`d turn the dial straight
back up.

HAYES: And what we have – I mean, the Pandora`s box was opened by the
destruction of the Iraqi state, which was precipitated directly,
unequivocally, by the American invasion of Iraq. That carnage has
reverberated through. It has given rise to the Islamic State. And one of
the things I think that comes through really well in this documentary is
what it means to be drenched in that kind of
trauma all the time for society.

WARE: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

HAYES: What does it mean?

WARE: Well, this is the thing. You know, obviously, we`re in the silly
season of politics with the presidential campaign. And it`s very easy from
behind a podium to talk about taking the fight and sending troops and doing
all of these things. I saw what it cost our children when they had to
reach out and touch a darkness like the Islamic State, even to combat it,
you know? We have the dead. We have the – we have the living dead. And
it shaves away at the soldiers and marines` souls, having to fight
something like this.

And let`s not forget the Iraqis. We have now…

HAYES: Hundreds of thousands of whom have died.

WARE: Of course. But think about the living too. I remember during the
height of the civil war kids would walk out the front gate and turn left to
go to elementary school and they`d come across a beheaded body, most likely
someone from their neighborhood they knew.

Even a top insurgent commander in the war said to me, Michael, we`re not
the ones I`m worried about, it`s our children. We now have two or three
generations who have grown up bathed in blood and violence.

HAYES: Yeah. And when you think about connecting the dots here, we look
at Brussels or we look at Paris and we say how did this happen and then we
go to walk to Molenbeek and we say, well, the third generation of these
folks are marginalized. But it`s hard to imagine us being where we are now
without that first domino of the Iraq war.

WARE: Of course not. That was the genesis. And in the film, you will see
the birth of the Islamic State. I witnessed it. I went to one of the
first Islamic State training camps that there ever was. So I`ve seen
inside this beast. And what we`re seeing now being exported to the west,
this is the Islamic State trying to project its threat from beyond its own
borders. I`m telling you, I`ve seen it all before.

HAYES: All right, the documentary which is really quite gripping, “Only
the Dead See an End to War” debuts Monday on HBO. And Michael Ware, it was
really a great pleasure.

WARE: Chris, great pleasure. Good on you, mate.

HAYES: That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts
right now.


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