All In With Chris Hayes, Transcript 3/21/2016
Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES
Date: March 21, 2016
Guest: Bernie Sanders, Betsy Woodruff, Howard Dean, Victoria Defrancesco
Soto, Bernie Sanders
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN –
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This political movement has gotten to the point where
you may get to death inside of a rally.
HAYES: More weekend violence as Donald Trump tries to charm Washington
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If people want to be smart, they
should embrace this movement.
HAYES: Tonight, the Republican front-runner goes to D.C.
Plus, President Obama makes history in Cuba.
And Senator Bernie Sanders goes ALL IN.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald Trump is an
embarrassment even to the Republican Party.
HAYES: Hear Sanders surprising answer about Trump protesters, his response
to Democrats calling for him to get out of race, and what he thinks of how
the media is covering him.
SANDERS: Campaigns and elections are not a game. They`re not a game.
HAYES: And ALL IN starts right now.
HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.
And I hope you`re sitting down because this has been absolutely crazy day
of news, with President Obama on the first presidential visit to Cuba in
nearly 90 years. Donald Trump descending on Washington to try to woo the
panicked GOP establishment, four out of the five candidates speaking to the
powerful Israel lobbying group known as AIPAC, and the one candidate who
skipped that event, Bernie Sanders, sitting down with me for a wide-ranging
20-minute interview you definitely do not want to miss.
All of that ahead, but first to Trump, who after spending the last eight
months speaking off the cuff, violating every taboo and offending seemingly
anyone and everyone found the one group he wouldn`t risk ad libbing in
front of. The American Israel Public Affairs Committee, aka, AIPAC, which
he spoke to using a teleprompter with a prepared remarks were perhaps the
first time as a presidential candidate, in which despite rumblings of
protests and walkouts gave Trump fairly enthusiastic reception. One we`ll
discuss later in the show.
Shortly before his speech to AIPAC, at a press conference without his
teleprompter, Trump defended the man seen here violently assaulting a
protester at a Trump campaign rally in Arizona over the weekend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: He was given a certain finger and a hand. He was talked to
horribly and he was also looking at somebody that came up with somebody
dressed as a member of the Ku Klux Klan. And he happened to be African-
American, the person who was a supporter. It was a shame what happened.
But you know what, he saw a member of the Ku Klux Klan, and you people
don`t write that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: To be clear, the man who was attacked was not, in fact, dressed as
a member of the Ku Klux Klan, though there was another protester nearby in
a KKK hood.
Now, the victim of this beating here told NBC News he was scared he would
be killed at the rally and he blamed Trump for inciting violence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRYAN SANDERS, ATTACKED AT TRUMP RALLY: This political movement has gotten
to the point where you may get beat to death inside of a rally. What`s
going to happen when this man is president? How is he going to shut down
dissent when he`s in charge?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Trump`s defense of the attacker comes on the heels of his defense
of campaign manager Corey Lewandowski, currently the subject of a criminal
complaint from conservative reporter Michelle Fields, who said Lewandowski
grabbed her and yanked her down when she tried to ask Trump a question,
leaving bruises in her arm.
At that same Arizona rally where the protester was beaten, Lewandowski, and
another Trump staffer were seen getting physical with a protester. And
despite video evidence to the contrary, Trump in his campaign claimed that
Lewandowski was not involved.
The only candidate not wooing AIPAC in Washington today was Bernie Sanders
who said he was too busy campaigning out west where he`s been met with
massive crowds, including an estimated 14,000 in Utah on Friday, ahead of
another big rally in Idaho this morning. Sanders, who is trailing Hillary
Clinton by 300 pledged delegates, managed to make time for an in-depth
interview with me.
HAYES: All right. Senator Sanders, let me start with this. It was
another example of some real upsetting violence at a Trump rally. A Trump
supporter beating up a protester. He was arrested. This comes in the wake
of a lot of protests, the roadblock.
There are some commentators who were saying, as responsible is Donald Trump
is for what is happening at his rallies, that the protest efforts now at
those rallies, the disruptions are essentially playing into his hand. What
do you think of that?
SANDERS: Well, look, I think, you know, that Trump has been incredibly
divisive. I think he`s insulted almost every group in America. I think
his policies are outrageous, but in America, people have a right to hold
So, I think my own feeling is it`s absolutely appropriate for thousands of
people to protest at a Trump rally, but I am not a great fan of disrupting
rallies. So, people want to be outside. They want to talk about attacks
on Mexicans. His outrageous attacks on Muslims and African-Americans, that
is absolutely appropriate.
But I think in some ways you`re right. I think it plays into Trump`s
hands. It`s counterproductive. Protests yes, disruptions, no.
HAYES: That is not the answer I would have expected from you.
SANDERS: Why not? I don`t believe – you know, people have a right to
give a speech. People have a right to protest. I`m not great fan of
disrupting people`s speeches.
HAYES: There was an article, I believe it was in “Politico”, about
Democratic senators talking about you and Hillary Clinton and your
campaigns, and basically I think urging you to enter a phase of your
campaign not to stop campaigning, but essentially to target Donald Trump as
opposed to Hillary Clinton because they believe or claim that you don`t
have a clear path to nomination and you were damaging or potentially
damaging Hillary Clinton.
I wanted to get your response to that.
SANDERS: Well, let me – let me respond in a couple of ways. We do have a
path to victory. You know, Secretary Clinton has done very, very well in
the Deep South and in states that have had elections there.
We`re now out of the Deep South. We`re heading West. We think we have an
excellent chance to win in Washington state, in the state of California, in
Oregon. We think we`ll do well this week in Utah. We think we`re going to
do well in Arizona, we`re right now here in Boise, Idaho. We have 6,000
people next door. We had 14,000 people out a few days ago in Salt Lake
Most importantly to me, Chris, in almost all the exit polls, we are winning
the people 45 or 50 and younger. The future of the Democratic Party is
with us. People are tired of establishment politics and establishment
People want to United States to join the rest of the industrialized world
with a national health program, Medicare for all. People believe fervently
that in the year 2016, we should make public colleges and universities
tuition free. We got to impose tax on Wall Street speculation.
These are the ideas that are generating enthusiasm. So, of course, I`m
taking on Donald Trump. I`m very proud in almost every national poll, we
are running much stronger against Trump than Clinton is. Last NBC poll I
think had us 18 points up. Clinton was 13 points up.
If you can believe it in the state of Utah, which is not elected, voted for
a Democrat in 50 years, we were beating Trump by 11 points. Hillary
Clinton by two points. One of the points many people are saying all over
this country is Bernie Sanders is, in fact, the strongest candidate against
HAYES: You gave an interview to Rachel Maddow the other night when she
talked with you about Merrick Garland, has been nominated by the president
to fill Scalia seat on the Supreme Court. And you said you would, if you
were elected, it was a lame duck session, you would ask for him to withdraw
and name your own Supreme Court justice. And you`ve talked about Citizens
United as a kind of litmus test for you.
HAYES: I wonder your views about Heller which is the opinion in 2007 by
the Supreme Court, 2008, finding that basically the Second Amendment
protects an individual right to bear arms. Do you think that was properly
decided? Would you look for a justice who would overturn it?
SANDERS: Chris, Chris, Chris – Chris, I`m not going to go through every
Supreme Court decision. But this is what I will tell you. I don`t go
around coming up with litmus tests every other day. I`m obviously pro-
choice, 100 percent voting record for women`s rights, for the environment
and so forth and so on, and to hold a lot of criteria out there.
But I worry, very much, about the future of American democracy. The degree
to which we are going to have a vibrant democracy if Citizens United
continues to stand. So, this, to me, is a very fundamental issue
underlying the whole nature of American society.
And I will not appoint or nominate anybody to the Supreme Court who is not
loud and clear, making it very public that not only will they vote to
overturn this disastrous Citizens United Supreme Court but they will push
it to come up as soon as possible, to be heard by the Supreme Court.
HAYES: One of the things Citizens United gave rise to, right, of course,
are super PACs. And I`m really curious. Have you – I will say that I
have actually genuinely been surprised by what a disaster they have been in
a strict tactical sense in this campaign. I mean, literally hundreds of
millions of dollars lit on fire, $145 million to get Jeb Bush, four
Are you surprised how seemingly ineffectual that kind of big money has been
SANDERS: I think that`s a wrong characterization of the situation.
Look, the political world is changing rapidly. What the establishment has
learned, what the Democratic accomplishment, the Republican establishment,
the media establishment is the world is not quite what they thought it was.
With the middle class disappearing, with people working longer hours for
low wages, people working for the future of their children, what you are
seeing a lot of discontent at the grass roots level all over this country.
And that`s what`s going on right now.
Trump is tapping that anger in a very destructive way, scapegoating
Mexicans and Muslim.
What we are doing is trying to bring people together to create an economy
that works for all of us, not just Wall Street. But to underestimate the
long term impact of Citizens United, of the Koch brothers, of Sheldon
Adelson, would be a very, very serious mistake.
That is one of the worst decisions in the history of Supreme Court
decisions. It`s got to be overturned.
HAYES: This connects to something else about your career in politics that
I wanted to ask you. You`re nothing, if not consistent. You`ve been
remarkably consistent on a whole set of principles since you really entered
public life, particularly since you entered Congress.
I think that consistency is a large part of your appeal. People don`t
think you`re making up this position about banks or, you know, money in
politics just because you think it will work. You really believe it.
Are there things that you`ve changed your mind on about politics since you
got into Congress or even since you started campaign? Are there things
that you had a conversion or thought to yourself, you know, I was wrong
about that, in your time as a politician?
SANDERS: Well – well, let me say this, you know, to be honest with you, I
almost, what I fervently wish is we had more time. Right now, I`m speaking
to you and I can hear in the background a crowd of 5,000 or 6,000 people in
Boise, Idaho. We have 14,000 people out in Salt Lake City.
What I think I underestimated is the degree we can, in fact, bring people
together around a strong economic message. People will disagree. I am
pro-choice. I am pro-gay marriage. I have – you know, feel fervently
about climate change.
But I think there`s even more opportunity than I had previously believed to
bring people together around basic economic issues ending this disastrous
these trade policies that have cost us millions of jobs, raising the
minimum wage to 15 an hour. I do believe that a majority of American
people want health care.
If I had to do it over again, I would have put more emphasis on bringing
working class people together to fight for a government that works for all
of us, not just wealthy campaign contributors.
HAYES: That`s not saying – so when you said more time, I thought you were
talking about you and I or before you – you`re saying the runway for the
Bernie Sanders plane, that you wish it was longer. That you think you
found something here that if it was longer, you would be in a better
position to take advantage of?
SANDERS: Look, I think, two things, number one, the Democrats need a 50-
state strategy. I think with intelligent planning, cultivating good
leadership in the South and there is some right there bringing blacks and
whites together, Democrats can make huge advances in the South.
I think in other parts of this country, whether it`s Kansas or Utah or
Idaho, I think it`s insane for the Democrats to abdicate those states in
that entire region. And I think if elected president and becoming leader
of the Democratic Party, we`re going to put resources in there.
And I think we can bring people together. You say you may disagree with me
on gay marriage, OK? But you do need to see your kid go to college. You
need to have a decent minimum wage. I think we can bring a lot of people
together on those issues.
HAYES: Much more on my interview with Bernie Sanders to come, including
the presidential candidate making news with some sharp records about
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
Plus, Donald Trump`s day trying to charm the D.C. establishment that ended
with him threatening the very people he was trying to win over.
And the ALL IN viewers guide to tomorrow`s primaries.
Those stories and more, ahead.
HAYES: Much more of my conversation with Bernie Sanders, including some
pointed words for Hillary Clinton and Benjamin Netanyahu. Plus, his
critique of how the media has covered his campaign.
Also, Senator Sanders reveals for the first time how his own religious
heritage impacts the way he thinks about politics.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: You were the first Jewish individual to get this far, to come this
close to the presidency in American history. How much does that shape how
you think about your role, should you become president, particularly with
respect to Israel, a place where you did live at a certain point?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: That answer, ahead.
HAYES: Today, as the Never Trump movement is marshalling whatever
political capital, energy, and money it has left to keep Donald Trump away
from the Republican nomination, Trump himself touched down in Washington,
D.C., the heart of the establishment, to make his pitch to possibly
skeptical party leaders and Beltway power brokers.
His day in the nation`s capital ended just moments ago with major policy
speech to AIPAC, where his statement that he is literally single leading
experiment of the Iran nuclear deal elicited laughter from the audience.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I`ve studied this issue in great detail. I would say greater by
far than anybody else. Believe me. Oh, believe me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Trump`s jaunt in D.C. ended with efforts of courting the who`s who
of D.C. foreign policy, it also began that way, with a sit down with “The
Washington Post” editorial page to detail his sparse and more than slightly
incoherent foreign policy. You`ve got to read the transcript of that, by
the way, in its entirety.
Next, Trump headed to a meeting with Republican lawmakers and GOP
operatives with the Jones Day law firm. The gathering attended by former
House Speaker Newt Gingrich, former Senator Jim DeMint, the president of
the influential conservative Heritage Foundation, along with two dozen
sitting senators and half a dozen congressmen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. SCOTT DESJARLAIS (R), TENNESSEE: I mean, he`s clearly the front-
runner. In my district in Tennessee, he won almost 50 percent of the vote.
I think he has the clearest path to the nomination. It only makes sense to
unify the party and get people behind him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: The real estate mogul then took his campaign to his new Trump
branded Washington, D.C. hotel where he announced, among other things, that
the Heritage Foundation is working to compile a list of Supreme Court
The press conference took place against the backdrop of reporting over the
weekend of last ditch efforts to stop Trump. The piece noting that if they
fail, quote, “leading conservatives are prepared to field an independent
candidate in the general election.”
Asked about party leaders, specifically House Speaker Paul Ryan`s criticism
of them, Trump offered a series of lightly veiled threats to the very
establishment he was in nation`s capitol to court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Now, they can play games. They can play cute. I can only take him
at face value.
I understand duplicity. I understand a lot of things, but he called me
last week. He could not have been nicer. I spoke with Mitch McConnell, he
could not have been nicer.
If people want to be smart, they should embrace this movement. They better
be careful and should be careful with third party stuff, “If Trump gets it,
we`re going to start a third party.” Well, a third party means the
Democrats are going to win, almost certainly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Joining me now is Betsy Woodruff, politics reporter of “The Daily
Betsy, I`m starting to see that you`re starting to see the first inklings
and signs of people who are just going to have, I think, just end up
supporting Trump, right? Parts of the conservative movement.
The Heritage Foundation was really interesting to me. Jim DeMint is at
Heritage, this is their statement of helping him think through Supreme
Court nominees. “Heritage has long advocated for judicial nominees with
high integrity that will follow the rule of law and uphold the Constitution
as written. We will consistently provide that guidance ands other policy
recommendations to officeholders and campaigns as part of our ongoing work
to promote conservative solutions.”
What are the tea leaves to be read there?
BETSY WOODRUFF, THE DAILY BEAST: The tea leaves to be read I think are
that Heritage has made peace with the fact that Trump is likely going to be
the Republican nominee. The sort of mass delusion that`s existed in D.C.
for about eight months regarding Trump`s strength as a candidate seems
finally to be dissipating and a lot of these establishment figures are
making peace with the fact he`s not going anywhere.
What`s interesting to me is that many of the most die hard never Trump
folks aren`t establishment figures. They aren`t in sort of Reince Priebus
world. In fact, a meeting last week that was much hyped of some never
Trump folks was dominated by a group`s biggest contribution was helping
Rick Santorum get his 2016 bid off the ground.
These aren`t Reince Priebus types. These are movement conservatives who
are probably doing the most or at least putting in the most effort thus far
to stop Trump.
HAYES: Yes, that`s a really key point. We think of the establishment, so
much of those politics are so transactional, right? These people think
they can get close to power, they`re going to.
This is George Will talking about this. He coins the phrase the Vichy
Republicans. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS: The party, it`s a big, big tent can expand to
include Donald Trump at least through November, or is this stretching it
GEORGE WILL, CONSERVATIVE COLUMNIST: It cannot expand that far and remain
a conservative party, which means if he`s the nominee, there will be no
conservative running in the race and the Vichy Republicans who are coming
to terms with the takeover of their party ought to understand that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Vichy Republicans.
WOODRUFF: The question of class traitorship is central to this.
Sarah Palin had a lengthy, protracted Facebook post, I think it was either
today or yesterday where she just ranted about the fact that supporters of
Donald Trump are worried they are getting blacklisted. A former Trump aide
mentioned a bit about this idea of keeping track of the names of
HAYES: A former Cruz aide, yes.
WOODRUFF: Former Cruz aide, exactly, yes, I misspoke. Keeping track of
the names of movement conservative figures who decided to get on board with
Trump and legitimize him.
But the reality is that, look, he`s had significant success getting some of
these Tea Party standard bearers. Some of these movement conservative
standard bearers, some of the keepers in the past, some of the people who
are the most diehard about making sure the people they supported are really
conservative. He`s had enormous success getting those folks on board with
him. A lot of the purists they just flip for Trump and I think that`s why
George Will is so uncomfortable with all of this, very understandable.
HAYES: That`s right. Sheldon Adelson, one of the biggest Republican
megadonors. His newspaper has been offering pretty positive coverage of
Donald Trump. It looks like some wooing there.
So, I think the category that George Will calls Vichy Republicans will be
quite a large category before all is said and done.
Betsy Woodruff, thanks for joining me.
WOODRUFF: Sure thing.
Coming up, this incredible video of President Obama and Cuban President
Raul Castro. Look at that dangling wrist there. What that dangling wrist
Plus, more of my exclusive interview with Senator Bernie Sanders where I
got to ask him a question I`ve only wanted to ask. His revealing answer,
Stay with us.
HAYES: All right. Two of the most heated, polarizing foreign policy
issues with the perhaps the most passionate domestic constituencies, Cuba
and Israel, were both somehow front and center today. The world wash day
of historic first unfold as Barack Obama became the first sitting U.S.
president since Calvin Coolidge to visit Cuba.
Mr. Obama is in the midst of a three-day visit, a trip complete with pomp
and circumstance, which included a Cuban band playing “The Star Spangled
President Obama met with Cuban President Raul Castro, their third face-to-
face encounter since diplomatic ties with Cuba reestablished.
Earlier, President Obama and Mr. Castro held a joint news conference, and
at President Obama`s urging, a rare occurrence in Cuba, questions were
taken from the press.
The president said he is confident the trade embargo with Cuba will end,
while Mr. Castro grabbed attention for his response to reporters question
about country`s political prisoners.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAUL CASTRO, CUBAN PRESIDENT (through translator): What political
prisoners? Give me a name or names or when after this meeting is over you
can give me a list of political prisoners. And if we have the political
prisoners they will be released before tonight`s end.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: We should note, of course, that Cuba does still hold political
prisoners, according at least to a 2015 report from Human Rights Watch.
The news conference culminating in some awkward optics perfectly embodying
the needle president has been threading on Cuba, in trying at once to end
the failed embargo policy, without at the same time appearing to endorse
the Castro regime.
President Castro at the end of the press conference seizing his arms in
hopes apparently of a kind of triumphant culminating photo op. President
Obama allowed his arm to go limp.
Meanwhile, back in this country, the woman hoping to succeed President
Obama addressed the pro-Israel lobbying group AIPAC in a speech that drew
some implicit, but rather sharp contrasts to the sitting presidnet,
offering to extend an invitation to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to
the White House, a line that earned Clinton a standing ovation.
Both the former Secretary of State and President Obama officially opposed
Israeli settlement building in occupied Palestinian land, but Mrs.
Clinton`s language in addressing the issue was, well, let`s just say far
from stern. As the Huffington Post note, she mentioned settlement activity
only once in passing near the end of her speech after multiple
condemnations of Palestinian acts of terror.
Clinton also had harsh words for the boycott, divestment and sanctions
movement, which aims to isolate Israel internationally, and linked that
movement with anti-Semitism.
Meanwhile, Clinton used her speech to paint Donald Trump as someone who
would threaten U.S.-Israel relations if he wins the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: We need steady hands, not a president who says he`s neutral on
Monday, pro-Israel on Tuesday and who knows what on Wednesday because
everything is negotiable.
Well, my friends, Israel`s security is non-negotiable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: There`s only one candidate still in the race who did not speak at
AIPAC today. It`s the only Jewish candidate in the race, Bernie Sanders.
And I got chance to sit down and talk with him about how he sees America`s
relationship with Israel. He used some sharp language to describe Israeli
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDERS: This is a right wing politician, a guy who kind of crashed the
United States congress to give his speech there, ignoring President Obama,
not even consulting with him, using it for political purposes back home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: The rest of my conversation with Bernie Sanders, ahead.
HAYES: More now in my conversation with Senator Bernie Sanders on a day of
massive political headlines Israel and Cuba. I asked the presidential
hopeful about both those topics and pressed him on how his worldview
differs from his Democratic rivals.
SANDERS: She is obviously much more hawkish than I am. I think she has
apologized for her vote against the war in Iraq. But I don`t think that
that was a mistake on her part, that is the type of aggressiveness and
hawkishness that is what she is part of.
I think the role that she played in Libya in the overthrow of Qadhafi
without fully understanding the long-term implications of regime change
there, and the vacuum it created for ISIS to come in is also a mistake.
The fact that she would go in with a debate, debate with me and talk about
the praise that she received from Henry Kissinger, Henry Kissinger, one of
the most destructive secretaries of state in American history, she was
proud to get his praise. I mean, that tells you where she is coming from.
We have a very different outlook.
HAYES: You just characterized her views. But I`m curious, you say she`s
more hawkish. Characterize your own views. Do you think of yourself as
dovish, do you think of yourself as a internationalist? How would you
characterize your own views in contrast to her?
SANDERS: In 12 seconds or less, look it`s not – I voted against the war
in Iraq. I voted against the first Gulf war. I think war is the last
option of a great military power like us. I think we need to focus on
Yes, ISIS must be destroyed, but it should be destroyed by a coalition of
Muslim nations on the ground with the support of the United States and the
major powers in the air and in training the troops there.
I think also, when you talk about what goes on in the Middle East, look, I
absolutely – I spent many months on a kibbutz in Israel. So, I know
something about Israel. Israel has got to be defended, has a right to
exist. But you cannot ignore the needs of the Palestinian people.
Yes, I am more than aware of what Iran is doing in supporting terrorism.
But I am also aware that the government of Saudi Arabia is no great model
of Jeffersonian democracy, that money from Saudi Arabia has gone in to
terrorist extremists, that also that when you look at the Middle East, we
have to play with a
much more level – even-handed approach than I think we have had.
So, it is not just, you know, long term, I think we want to make sure that
we do everything that we can to stop the support of terrorism from Iran.
But long-term, and I think the agreement of the Obama administration
reached in stopping the development of a nuclear weapon in Iran is a step
forward. I want to see that continued.
I want to see pressure being put on Saudi Arabia not only to stop funding
terrorists, but instead of being in Yemen to play a more active role again
ISIS . In other words, what we have got to do, we are all aware of the
centuries old division between Shiites and Sunnis. But you know what,
they`re going to have to sit at the table.
We can play a role in trying to resolve some of the differences so they
work with us against ISIS and terrorism in general.
HAYES: You use the phrase even-handed in terms of our sort of navigating
difficulty geopolitics in the Middle East. Hillary Clinton today when she
was speaking to AIPAC mocked Donald Trump, seemed to mock Donald Trump, who
talked about being neutral between Israel and Palestinian negotiations in
achieving some kind of two-state solution and peace deal.
Who`s right about that? Should the U.S. be neutral or not?
SANDERS: No, it`s not a question of being neutral and it`s not a question
of Donald Trump.
I mean, you know, Donald Trump is an embarrassment even to the Republican
Party. What I mean is that when you look at somebody like a Netanyahu, to
simply not understand that this is a right wing politician, a guy who kind
of crashed the United States congress to give his speech there, ignoring
President Obama, not even consulting with him, using it for political
purposes back home, a guy who has supported the growth of settlements, I
think the overreaction and the destruction of Gaza went too, too far.
Israel should not be bombing schools or homes, just terrible damage there.
So, point being, Israel has an absolute right to exist, not only to exist,
but to exist in way that they`re not under threat of terrorism. And I
support that 100 percent.
But you have also got to reach out to the Palestinian people and to the
Arab communities, that is the only hope, I think, for lasting peace in the
Is this going to be easy? Of course it`s not. Wonderful people have tried
for decades without success. But we keep doing it. We just cannot be 100
percent supportive of people like Netanyahu and ignore the rest of the
HAYES: Clinton also – and then I`m going to move to Cuba. But Clinton
also today talked about the boycott, divest, sanction movement, which is an
international movement. Some of the people who advocate those tactics
believe that Israel should be a binational state. They don`t believe in
Zionism. Some are Zionists, but they want to see Israel support a two-
state solution more strenuously, move away from the settlements. She
linked to it racism, to anti-Semitism basically. She said – she connected
BDS to anti-Semiticism. Do you think that`s a fair linkage?
SANDERS: I think there is some of that, absolutely. Look, Israel has done
some bad things. So has every other country on Earth. I think if people
want to attack Israel for their policies, I
think that is fair game but not to appreciate that there is some level of
anti-Semitism around the world involved in that I think would be a mistake.
HAYES: You are the first Jewish individual to get this far, to come this
close to the presidency in American history. How much does that shape how
you think about your role should you become
president with respect to Israel, a place where you did live at a certain
SANDERS: My role if elected president – I`ve got to look at foreign
policy and look at the United States approach to every country on Earth.
Clearly the Middle East has been a cauldron. It has been so volatile, so
horrible in so many years that it`s an area you have got to pay attention
to. But you have got to pay attention to China. You have got to pay
attention to Latin America.
I would say that being Jewish, what has been most significant in my life is
understanding what a
Hitler, what horrible politics can mean to people. And I think that`s been
one of the motivating factors in my life in fighting against racism and
bigotry of all kinds, because when it gets out of hands as we have seen and
we are – it obviously it has unbelievable repercussions.
HAYES: Today the president is in Cuba and it`s a remarkable thing for a
lot of people to witness given the decades of American policy there. It`s
something you have oppose. You opposed the embargo for a long time.
Do you have a message today if there are Cuban dissidents, some of whom
were protesting today, some of whom were arrested during protests. To
those folks or to people in Miami who feel like even if they didn`t support
the embargo also feel negatively about the Castro regime?
SANDERS: Well, you know, there`s a lot to feel negatively about. But I
think in terms of the nature of the continuation of the Cold War, which has
gone on so long between Cuba and the United
States, I applaud the president for aggressively trying to end it. And I
hope we will not only full diplomatic relations but that the trade embargo
will end. I think that will be good for the people of Cuba. And I think
it`s a little bit absurd that here in the United States we can get on
plane, we can go to
china, we can go to Saudi Arabia, we can go anyplace we want, countries
that are not democratic, but for some reason we can`t go to Cuba,
businesses in America can`t do business in Cuba. I think that that is
So, I hope very much and applaud the president for his efforts in that
direction and hope that in the not too distant future – and if I have
anything to say about it as president, we will work aggressively to develop
normal relations in every respect with the people of Cuba.
HAYES: Final question here, senator. You`ve been very critical of the
media`s role in this campaign. And some of those critiques I find pretty
compelling, I have to say. Is there a question that you wished you got
asked more that you don`t get asked?
SANDERS: Look, it`s not just a question. For the media, 90 percent of the
coverage is process is soap opera is polls, is raising money. Go to the
rallies that I have and listen to the people coming
up to me. Yesterday, a woman comes up to me with tears her eyes, Bernie I
am working 60 hours a week. I`m not making any money. I don`t have time
to spend with my daughter.
Listen to the kids who leave school 50,000 or 60,000 a year in debt. Talk
to the people who have no health insurance and what that means to their
I`m running for president of the United States because we have a
disappearing middle class, we got 47 million people living in poverty. The
amount of time that the media pays to those issues is
And I think that is my critique, Chris, that the media has got to look at
the pain in America today and then look at how the candidates are
responding to that pain. Campaigns and elections are not a game. They`re
not a game. They`re about trying to change America. We`re the wealthiest
country in the history of the world. We should not be having Flint,
Michigans or African-American communities all over this country where
schools are failing.
Those are the issues we got to pay attention to and not look at this as
some kind of silly game. And that is the critique that bothers me. That`s
what bothers me about media coverage.
HAYES: All right, Senator Bernie Sanders, candidate for president of the
Democratic Party, senator from Vermont. Thanks for all your time. Really
SANDERS: Thank you, Chris.
HAYES: All right. As Utah prepares to caucus tomorrow, the stop Trump
campaign is in full force with some pretty provocative ads, targeting
Mormons, including one of Donald Trump`s wife posing nude. Most on that
HAYES: So, it turns out, there is a single factor that has proven to be
the strongest predictor of anti-Trump voting behavior among Republican
primary goers. We`re going to tell you what it is and why it might be so
crucial tomorrow ahead.
HAYES: Though just a few states hold primaries or caucuses tomorrow,
there`s some very high stakes drama in those contests. Donald Trump is
favored to take Arizona on the Republican side, both former and governor
Jan Brewer and the infamous Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio have
endorsed Trump. And it`s a winner take all primary.
So, if Trump wins even if it`s just a plurality of the vote, he gets to
keep all those delegates. But here`s where things get interesting on the
GOP side, Senator Ted Cruz is heavily favored to win in Utah. And it`s
majority take all state, meaning if Cruz can manage to win over 50 percent
of the vote instead of a mere plurality, he`s awarded all that state`s
This is a key point for anyone hoping for a victory for a small victory for
the stop Trump forces, because projections that people are running right
now in various models and simulations, tend to put Trump hovering right
around perhaps possibly under the 1,237 he needs if he continues as he`s
been. And that means just a few delegates shy could keep him from an
A Cruz majority win in Utah is the kind of outcome that could lend credence
to the idea that Trump can be forced to go to Cleveland without the
Now, part of the reason Cruz has a shot in an outright win in Utah is that
it looks like Mormonism is the most effective anti-Trump inoculation among
the GOP base. Check this out, from this graph, tweeted by Nate Collin (ph)
in the New York Times, the greater the percentage of Mormons in a given
country, the less support there is for Donald Trump.
An anti-Trump Super PAC calling itself Make America Awesome, has even put
out Facebook ads targeted to Mormons, including this one featuring Mitt
Romney, and another one that is, well, disparaging of Trump`s wife Milania.
Coming up, could Donald Trump`s trouble rallying Mormons to his side keep
him from winning the Republican nomination? And we`ll preview what the
Democrats have in store tomorrow, next.
HAYES: Joining me now MSNBC contributor, Victoria Defrancesco Soto, Fellow
at Center for Politics and Governance at the LBJ School of Public Affairs
in Texas; and MSNBC political analyst Howard Dean, former chair of the DNC
and former governor of Vermont.
Now, Victoria, let me start with you, Arizona, tomorrow, immigration is
sort of figured more prominently I think in that state`s politics than
perhaps any other state in the union. You see Jan Brewer and Joe Arpaio,
the sort of anti-immigration maximalists endorsing Trump. You wrote today
about how the immigration legacy has led to Trump. How do you see that
issue playing out on both sides tomorrow?
VICTORIA DEFRANCESCO SOTO , CENTER FOR POLITICANS AND GOVERNANCE: Well, I
think, Chris, there was a lot of shock and awe when Donald Trump came out
with his candidacy and was speaking about immigrants being rapists and drug
dealers. But the truth of the matter that this isn`t old. This is the
type of rhetoric that we have been seeing for over decade starting really
in Arizona, because of the problems they were having being a border state.
And then in 2010 it culminated with the SB-1070 law.
But then the it quieted down when the Supreme Court struck down most of SB-
1070. It`s come back up. But I think the question is for both parties,
Chris, Republicans and Democrats is we`re not going to see this immigration
rhetoric go away until we have comprehensive immigration reform. It will
wax and wane, but until it`s taken off of the table with a comprehensive
reform from congress, not just band aids of executive orders, we`ll keep
seeing more of t the same.
HAYES: Howard, this is my favorite nugget about the efforts to blunt
Trump, and this is from the Washington piece. That they keep trying to
attack him for the fact that he`s insufficiently harsh on health care.
That he has supported universal health care in the past. He had this
exchange about not
letting people die in the streets.
In one poll conducted within the last week, potential Trump voters were
asked if they would bail on him if convinced he would fail to repeal the
ACA. Less than a third of them said they would.
It`s remarkable how absent the ACA, frankly, is from this primary and how
much Trump – how much it`s benefitting Trump that it is.
HOWARD DEAN, FRM. GOVERNOR OF VERMONT: Look, Donald Trump has got the
right formula. He`s got the wrong personality and the wrong rhetoric.
But he is basically saying to those disaffected Democrats, known as the
Reagan Democrats, many of whom voted for a Republican for the last three
decades, look, we`re not going to cut your social programs. We`re not
going to renounce the traditional Democratic safety net, but we are going
to use a lot of hate rhetoric, basically on people who make you
Unfortunately, this debate benefits Democrats greatly. Because the
Hispanic population is
critical to winning the presidency, and you can`t win the presidency if
you`re a Republican and you get less than 35 or 40 percent of the vote.
Donald Trump has driven that number down among Hispanics to almost under 20
percent. So, I don`t think either side should benefit from this debate.
But as it turns out, since we are the party that`s the – that looks like
rest of America„ Hispanics have been driven into our lap by this rhetoric,
which is not – and Donald Trump is not the first to use this kind of
rhetoric on the Republican side.
HAYES: You know, there`s a new Times poll out today, Victoria, about
opinion of own party, which I thought was pretty interesting and I will say
a lot about what happens tomorrow, particularly in Arizona where I think
Hillary Clinton is currently the favorite.
The favorable opinion of the own party, GOP 51 percent, Dems 82 percent.
In terms of the different trajectories these campaigns have taken with
Trump remaining the frontrunner and Sanders sort of falling behind Hillary
Clinton, it seems to me like that number has a lot to do with what`s going
on in both those dynamics and what we`ll see out of, say, Arizona tomorrow.
SOTO: Yeah, absolutely. And drawing off what the governor said, it does
come back to that
growing Latino electorate. Arizona has one of the fastest growing Latino
populations, a very young Latino population. So, Hillary Clinton – and
having established a very strong connection with the Latino community for
decades has been able to harness that and helping her in this primary, and
I think going into the general election.
And you know, not just in Arizona, but across the country, and even in Utah
we`re going to see immigration being a primary issue because our country is
changing. And the country of tomorrow is one that`s going to be based on
immigration whether folks like it or not.
HAYES: Howard, I think this stat about Mormonism in Utah is so
fascinating. You`ve seen Mitt Romney come out against him. You really,
there`s – he has very, very favorables, Donald Trump, among Mormons. It`s
sort of a fascinating window into what the nature of Trump`s appeal is and
what are the kinds of things that can stop him.
DEAN: Well, one of the things about Mormons and evangelicals is I think
they are really put off by the language that he uses, including the
language that would have undone any other candidate many, many months ago.
The Mormons I know care about that stuff. There are Democratic Mormons.
They don`t like that kind of crude language either.
I think it`s going to be fascinating tomorrow. I do see – I do believe
that Hillary Clinton is actually going to pick up delegates. Bernie may
well win Utah and Idaho, and together that won`t be enough to make up for
the amount of delegates that Hillary will win in a very one-sided win in
HAYES: That`s the big question. Because it`s all proportional, of course,
in the Democratic side. If she does in fact win, which polling projects,
although we saw Michigan, who comes up plus or minus tomorrow between
Idaho, Utah and Arizona.
Victoria Defrancesco Soto, Howard Dean, thanks for being on the show
DEAN: Thank you.
HAYES: And that is All In for this evening.
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