All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 2/8/2016

Charlie Pierce, James Pindell, Sabrina Siddiqui, Tad Devine, Ayanna Pressley, Betsy Woodruff, John Nichols, Michael Steele

Date: February 8, 2016
Guest: Charlie Pierce, James Pindell, Sabrina Siddiqui, Tad Devine, Ayanna
Pressley, Betsy Woodruff, John Nichols, Michael Steele


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN –


JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC ANCHOR: Uh-oh, I don`t like this.

BRZEZINSKI: Trump. Just one more.



HAYES: It`s a verbal fight to the finish.


HAYES: A Trump attack continues as the pile on Marco Rubio grows.

amateur on that stage. She will eat him alive.

LESTER HOLT, NBC NEWS: Do you think you`ve given new life to the column of
three governors?


HAYES: Plus, Hillary Clinton responds to rumors of a campaign shake up and
speaks out on the harassment of her supporters.

online. They`re being harassed at t our events. They are being treated

HAYES: And the ghost of New Hampshire past.

little rebellion has emerged and grown into a full fledged middle


HAYES: What primaries past tell us about what`s possible tomorrow?

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT: New Hampshire tonight has made Bill
Clinton the comeback kid.


HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from Manchester, New Hampshire, in the heart of the
political world. I am Chris Hayes.

And at midnight, which is just four hours from now, the first polling
locations open and the voting officially begins here in New Hampshire`s
first in the nation primary.

All signs suggest that Donald Trump having survived his second place finish
in Iowa and rumors of his imminent demise is poised for his first big
victory. On the eve of the primary, the most recent polling shows him with
commanding lead, almost 16 points ahead of the closest challenger, Marco

And after relatively muted and safe performance at Saturday night`s debate,
the last one before New Hampshire voters head to the polls, Trump is
reverting to some of it greatest hits to close the deal. On the campaign
trail today, he`s been lashing out at the candidate who currently poses
essentially no electoral threat. I speak, of course, of Jeb Bush – the
perfect foil for Trump`s anti-establishment strong man persona.


TRUMP: He`s a total stiff, Jeb Bush. Here`s a guy, honestly, if he
weren`t in government, you wouldn`t hire him to do anything. He`s like a
child. He`s like a spoiled child. Bush raised $128 million, supposedly.
Can you believe that? Total control – I mean, they have total control
over this guy.


HAYES: The last attack may have struck a nerve. Today, Jeb Bush, the
candidate with the most super PAC money behind him, came out against the
Supreme Court`s Citizens United decision, which paved the way for
essentially unlimited spending in elections.

Across the aisle, the Democratic race in New Hampshire is looking almost
equally settled, at least according to the polling average, on the eve of
this primary. Bernie Sanders is averaging more than 10 percent over
Hillary Clinton in the latest polls, extending a nearly two-month streak in
which he`s been up ahead in a state which neighbors his own.

Today, he was campaigning like a front-runner, doing very little media,
barely even getting to mention his opponent. Meanwhile, the entire Clinton
family was out in full force in the Granite State today, giving the hard
sale against making Sanders the Democratic nominee.

But the real race in Washington tomorrow, the most heated contest in the
New Hampshire primary is the five-man battle for second place in the
Republican field behind Donald Trump. The outcome may decide who lives to
fight another day and who reaches the end of the road.

After beating expectations in Iowa and spinning his third place finish into
a win, Marco Rubio seemed like a man with momentum, enough to perhaps close
the gab behind Trump, possibly even squeeze out some of the other
candidates favored by the donor class and party elites. Then came Saturday
night`s debate, when Rubio`s repeated use of the same scripted talking


RUBIO: Let`s dispel with this fiction that Barack Obama doesn`t know what
he`s doing. He knows exactly what he`s doing.

Let`s dispel with this fiction that Barack Obama doesn`t know what he`s
doing. He knows exactly what he`s doing.

Here`s the bottom line, this notion that Barack Obama doesn`t know what
he`s doing is just not true.

CHRISTIE: There it is.

He knows exactly what he`s doing.

CHRISTIE: There it is. The memorize 25-second speech.

RUBIO: Anyone who believes that Barack Obama isn`t doing what he`s doing
on purpose doesn`t understand what we`re dealing with here.


HAYES: Doing damage control over the past couple of days, Rubio is
standing by what he said, explaining his canned talking points with some
more canned talking points.


RUBIO: I`m going to continue to say that. It is one of the reasons I`m

I`m going to keep saying that, because not only is that the truth. It is
at the core of this campaign.

Even at the core of this campaign is that statement, and I am going to
continue to say it.

I will pay people to repeat those lines because it is one of the key
elements of our campaign.

I would pay them to keep running that clip. That`s what I believe,

It was the biggest fundraising night we`ve had in all of the debates.

We raised more money last night in the first hour of that debate than any
other debate.

We had the biggest fund raising night of my campaign, even bigger than any
other debate.

Obamacare was not an accident. Dodd-Frank was not an accident. The deal
with Iran was not an accident.

Obamacare was not an accident. Dodd-Frank was not an accident. The deal
with Iran was not an accident.

Obamacare wasn`t an accident. Dodd-Frank was not an accident. The deal
with Iran was not an accident.


HAYES: Now, if New Hampshire voters are taking notice, Rubio`s stumble, in
the eyes of the donor class and a lot of observers could create an opening
for the so-called establishment candidates, the governors, Jeb Bush, John
Kasich and Chris Christie. There are definitely rumblings here in New
Hampshire of a Kasich surge. The Ohio governor earned widespread praise
for his performance Saturday night, has been doing tons of town hall here
in the state.

In an interview today, Kasich told my colleague Steve Kornacki he`s staying
focused on his own campaign.


watch my game, the 17th and 18th hole. I don`t look at the leaderboard. I
go in the clubhouse and normally in this business, I win.

We actually marched in a lot of obscurity for a long time. Maybe we`ll get
to the point where that obscurity will come to an end.


HAYES: Jeb Bush, hoping to outperform his poll numbers, is arguing that
Rubio`s performance shows why he`s unfit for the party`s nomination.
Reportedly telling “Breitbart”, of all outlets, process that for a second,
Hillary Clinton would scrap the bark off Rubio.

While Chris Christie, who stuck the knife into Rubio on Saturday, told my
colleague Kate Snow that in race where expectations are half the battle,
Rubio has already lost.


CHRISTIE: It`s over. His campaign putting out Marco-mentum stuff is not
happening anymore. Their campaign (INAUDIBLE) is what they`re doing. And
the fact is because he`s not ready to be president. We had a very good now
24, 36 hours online as far as contributions. Other donors who were maybe
moving toward Senator Rubio are frozen in place.


HAYES: Joining me now, Charlie Pierce, writer at large for “Esquire
Magazine”, Sabrina Siddiqui, political reporter for “The Guardian”, and
James Pindell, he`s a political reporter for “The Boston Globe.”

There`s so much to get to. So many angles of this glut in the battle for
second place I`m fascinated by as window into how presidential politics
works in 2016.

Well, let us begin with the Rubio malfunction.

Sabrina, you`ve been covering the Rubio campaign. People say he`s
extremely impressive in person. He`s very good at these town halls.

What do you make of that, that debate performance?

SABRINA SIDDIQUI, THE GUARDIAN: Well, look, he obviously had a tough
debate performance, and I think the reason you see him doubling down on
that line is their attitude is we have to not go toward the scripted
narrative that`s emerging in the media and going instead to the essence of
the attack he was making on Barack Obama which plays well with the
conservative base. It always does well when he says it at town halls.

And, you know, when I was with him all day yesterday, you start to see the
strength of why voters gravitate toward him. In town halls, he`s very
personable. He`s able to draw from his own experience, his life
experience, and I had a number of undecided voters go up to him in front of
me and say we saw the debate, we were concerned but you sold us today.

So, I don`t think you could rule him out based one debate in terms of
voters. The problem, of course, is the media narrative when it turns on
you, it`s hard to shake that, and then that effects the donor class
concerned which where he was coming off of Iowa and he was about to
consolidate this lane, so called lane, and that becomes a little bit
trickier, at least a little more prolonged of a process.

HAYES: The thing you always got to remember here, right? Two audiences,
voters, donors, voters, donors.

And there`s amazing moment today, James, when Christie says, he says, you
hear a lot of checks being torn up. I thought to myself, God bless Chris
Christie for – he doesn`t say you hear a lot of TVs clicking off. He
doesn`t say you hear a lot of voters changing their mind.

No, no, I heard a lot of checks being ripped up is the moment was about
what Sabrina is talking about is whether you`re going to see donor class

JAMES PINDELL, THE BOSTON GLOBE: That`s right. And that`s what happens
when we get out of New Hampshire. But I do think this debate completely
changed the – Iowa changed the game where Rubio definitely was the
establishment pick for those glorious three days of his career. And now,
it`s not.

I think you have seen on the trail a different candidate. He lost his mojo
a little bit. Now I`m not sure exactly what happens.

In terms of the donor class, though, donors like robots. Robots don`t mess
up, right? That`s the point. But the question is whether or not New
Hampshire voters like this robot. When you play that open in sequence,
that was pretty brutal.

HAYES: By the way, by 2020 or 2024, we will definitely get a donor class
box of robot running for president, 100 percent, that is coming after the
self-driving cars.

What do you make of it? I mean, you`ve covered politics forever.

CHARLIE PIERCE, ESQUIRE MAGAZINE: I`m the old guy on this.

HAYES: I guess I couldn`t tell, I saw that moment and I thought to myself,
the moment where Christie goes there it is in, I thought it was like I`m
paying for this microphone, Dean scream, Perry oops, there he goes again,
you`re no Jack Kennedy level debate iconic moment. But then I thought, I
don`t know, maybe the voters don`t see it that way.

PIERCE: Well, first of all, he also lost the votes of English teachers
because he kept making the same grammatical mistake over and over.

HAYES: Dispense with.

PIERCE: You dispense with.


PIERCE: Dispel. You do not dispense with.

No, I mean, I think it will be easy to mock him, but Marco Rubio has been a
lightweight his whole political career. I mean, let`s go to the rest of
what he said there, OK? He essentially accused the president of the United
States of sadism. That`s a serious charge. I guarantee you, he has
nothing to back that up.

HAYES: OK. Well, here, so people understand the context, right? Sabrina,
at one level, it`s like Barack Obama knows what he`s doing. Who`s the
straw man that you are arguing that Barack Obama doesn`t know what he`s

SIDDIQUI: There`s a reason behind that. The context is Marco Rubio ever
since he emerged on the national scene, has been compared to Barack Obama.
On the Republican side, that`s been viewed as a liability. And his
opponents have used that as a slight. Not as a source of any praise.

So, what he does on the stump and he`s been using it for a while, is to try
and say, listen, Barack Obama has been successful at pushing a liberal
agenda. He`s been successful at changing this country to his view. So, we
need a conservative in the White House like myself, essentially, who will
achieve what Barack Obama has done for liberals, but do it for Republicans.
That`s the essence of the argument he`s making on one side.

PIERCE: If he were saying that, I would not have said what I have said.
He`s saying Barack Obama is undermining the Constitution. That`s an
impeachable offense.

SIDDIQUI: There`s that, too.

PIERCE: That`s an impeachable offense. You don`t say that about a sitting

PINDELL: In this establishment lane, you have voters I talked to every day
all this week since Iowa who are trying to figure out, OK, I`m not a Cruz
voter. I think Donald Trump`s crazy. Where am I supposed to go?

There`s no question they were with Rubio before this debate. They may
still be with Rubio but I`m not so sure. There`s other options right now.

SIDDIQUI: Could I actually borrow from Marco Rubio`s words. Let`s dispel
with this fiction that Marco Rubio is the establishment, because he has a
very conservative record. So, I think why this might not hurt him quite so
much is there`s still only one viable alternative in the eyes of many
Republicans, incumbent Ted Cruz, because Kasich or Jeb could emerge having
a better than expected performance, but hey will not consolidate


PINDELL: I`m with you, but the first step here is that Rubio has to come
out in New Hampshire, and this is –


HAYES: So, this is where I think there`s a sort of delicious, dramatic
twist here, which is the revenge of the expectations game, which Rubio
outplayed everyone on in Iowa, no question, right? They leap the 3-2-1
strategy. The guy comes in third.

He`s the first to come out on election night and said they were the first
to say this couldn`t happen, as they were writing columns being like, I bet
you, Rubio could never finish third in Iowa. Like, sure, fine. Plays
that, he gets momentum, right? He gets that momentum that inflates
expectation, which now, I think, if he doesn`t come in second, tht looks –
Marco coming out of first two contests with two third place finishes is a
weak argument to say I`m the guy.

PIERCE: Especially if he finishes third behind two guys that nobody wants
to get the nomination. That I don`t think will happen.

PINDELL: If he finishes between those two guys, if he finishes third
actually those two guys, he may still be fine.


HAYES: It`s a question of –

PINDELL: But he still may finish second.

SIDDIQUI: I think if he doesn`t well enough, I think it become a two-man
race between Donald Trump and Ted Cruz sooner than people thought, because
realistically speaking, we talk about here, compare to a John Kasich and
Jeb Bush.

HAYES: That`s the problem for John Kasich, right, is that if Kasich does
very well, I saw him in a town hall and I was extremely impressed. It was
an alternate universe of politics that look more like normal politics, like
a person`s different politics than I have.


HAYES: Talking about this is how we balance the budget this my third year
in Ohio.

PIERCE: He`s also the only guy not going around saying that America is a
smoking (INAUDIBLE) of blood and zombies. He`s saying we still got a
pretty decent country.

SIDDIQUI: He and Jeb.

PIERCE: We have to get to that. I want to thank the crew at ALL IN for
reattaching my jaw to my head. When I heard Jeb Bush say that Citizens
United should be repelled, I literally stopped in my tracks.

HAYES: Here`s what`s so great. The context to look at this is the
Republican donor class understands the electoral weaknesses in some ways of
their party, right? The key is to get someone who can appeal to enough
Obama voters to get elected, but essentially do things the donors class
likes, right?

The reason Marco Rubio so attractive as you said, right, from the
background that`s relatable. Talks about the folks and also wants to get
rid of all capital gains taxes, which is an idea when Steve Forbes proposed
it, Mitt Romney took out a full page ad to say, this is a give away to fat
cats and so bonkers. So, that`s what makes Rubio this combination of
political talent that is for growth, cutting maxims of the Wall Street
Republicans on steroids. That`s why there`s so much invested in him.

The question is can he deliver with all those people willing him to

Charlie Pierce, Sabrina Siddiqui, and James Pindell – thank you. Go get
yourself a drink at the bar.

All right. Bring me back one, too.

PIERCE: Is that an order?

HAYES: Still to come, Hillary Clinton responds to rumors of a campaign
shake up after New Hampshire in an exclusive interview with Rachel Maddow.
We have a preview of what she said, next.

Plus, New Hampshire primary seeing some dramatic turning points for past
campaigns. We`ll look at a few of the most remarkable moments ahead.

And later, Trump`s latest strategy. This is really fascinating, as he
tries to secure his first state win, why he is railing against big business
in the donor class and the rigged game.

Those stories and more, ahead.


HAYES: All right. That`s New Hampshire Senator Jeanne Shaheen who is
warming up the crowd at a Hillary Clinton event in Hudson, New Hampshire,
as the candidate is running late due to the absolute mess out there, the
snow and the roads. Something we had first hand experience this morning,
as we race to get up here.

Today, a report out from “Politico” that Hillary Clinton is considering
making staffing and strategy changes after tomorrow`s primary New
Hampshire. Political reports that even Mark Penn, Clinton`s controversial
former chief strategist from 2008 has been quietly advising Bill Clinton.

Rachel Maddow sat down with Secretary Clinton. The full interview tonight
at 9:00 p.m., asked her about the shake up. Here`s what she had to say.


talking about or who they are talking to. We`re going to get stock, but
it`s going to be the campaign that I`ve got.

I`m very confident in the people I have. I`m very committed to them.
They`re committed to doing the best we can. We`re going to take stock.
What works, what doesn`t work.

We`re moving into a different phase of the campaign. We`re moving into a
more diverse electorate, and moving into different geographic areas. So,
of course, it will be malpractice not to say, what worked, what can we do
better, what do we have to know and different that we have to pull out.


HAYES: Ahead, both Hillary and Bill Clinton are going after Sanders
supporters, what they say is a pattern of sexist attacks. That is next.


HAYES: Breaking news tonight as Hillary Clinton defends her husband`s
charges of sexism on the part of Bernie Sanders supporters. In a rally
yesterday in New Hampshire, Bill Clinton said his wife`s backers have been
subject to such vicious attacks that at least one progressive did not feel
comfortable putting her name in an article promoting Hillary Clinton.


BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT: She posted it under a pseudonym because
she and other people have went online to defend Hillary and explain – just
explain – why they supported her have been subject to vicious trolling and
attacks that are literally too propane, often, not to mention sexist to


HAYES: Those comments part of larger broadside against Sanders generate a
lot of attention. At a rally today, Bill Clinton – whose attacks, let`s
remember, Barack Obama in 2008 campaign, were seen as less than helpful –
acknowledged, he has to be careful.


B. CLINTON: The hotter this election gets, the more I wish I were just a
former president and just for a few months not the spouse of the next one.
I have to be careful what I say.


HAYES: In an interview with Rachel Maddow today which will air fully on
MSNBC at 9:00 p.m. Eastern, Hillary Clinton argued her husband had a point.


H. CLINTON: I think Bill was defending my supporters, because we know a
lot of them are being harassed online, they`re being harassed at our
events. They are being really treated badly.

Look, I`m all for people who are for my opponent. I think it`s great to
bring as many new, young people as possible. But I want people treated
respectfully. And I think that`s part of what he was talking about.


HAYES: Joining me now, Tad Devine, senior adviser to the Bernie Sanders
presidential campaign.

Good to have you here, Tad.

Senator Sanders was pretty unequivocal on several interviews basically
saying, cut the crap, anything.

Do you, guys – does this – is this something you feel like you have a
problem with? Is there – is it a different side of the same coin of
passionate support in the era of social media? It`s a very fine line
between that and people getting nasty?

all we can do is what Bernie has done – make it clear and unequivocal that
we don`t want people to do this, you know? And I think the reason the
Clintons are raising this is because only concern about supporters.

I think, you know, the polls are very tight here. The polls are tightening
elsewhere. Bill Clinton yesterday didn`t just talk about this. He threw
the kitchen sink at Bernie Sanders.

So, I think it`s unfortunate he decided to do it. We`re going to stay on

HAYES: Let me ask you – Clinton had sort of an interesting – Bill
Clinton, an interesting riff about the establishment. I want to play this
clip for you and get your response. Take a listen.


B. CLINTON: I think it`s unfortunate that we can`t have a debate without
rancor. This sort of campaign – anybody that supports her as a member of
the establishment, whatever that is.


HAYES: You know, he made it this point, when I first heard these comments,
what he was making with this. There`s a difference between saying let`s
debate substantively and the other thing which is anyone supporting Clinton
is fundamentally part of a corrupt system from which no good faith can be
expected. I mean, is that the argument the Sanders campaign is making?

DEVINE: No. The argument is the political and economic establishment has
put in place a rigged economy. That rigged economy is sending almost no –

HAYES: What does that word mean? Define the word.

DEVINE: A rigged economy?

HAYES: No. That I know. Establishment, define establishment. What the
word means?

DEVINE: You know, I think it`s the sources of power in our establishment.
Wall Street, for example, Wall Street is the part of the establishment, OK?

HAYES: Sure.

DEVINE: The political structures that are if place that allow for Citizens
United and super fund PAC, you have a super PAC today, OK, and you take –
for example as Hillary Clinton did, $25 million in the last quarter, $15
million from Wall Street. That`s the establishment.



HAYES: OK, but isn`t it part of the problem, right, is that theory of
politics requires an establishment to be acting in some sort of unified
purpose, right? The Clinton campaign said you talk about the
establishment. There`s Wall Street hedge fund people dropping millions of
dollars to defeat me, right? They don`t view me as an ally, right?

Within the whatever broad slice of American life you call the
establishment, why should we think it`s unified, many of them?

DEVINE: Well, listen, she can make all the arguments she wants about being
attacked by the establishment. The first ad we put, he said people are
sick and tired of an establishment politics and establishment economics and
they want real change. And that`s the heart of our campaign.

HAYES: Let me ask you this. The median Democratic voter, OK? When you
say the establishment, the Democratic Party, does that count as part of the

DEVINE: You know, listen, we`re running for the nomination of the
Democratic Party. Let me define the Democratic Party.

The Democratic Party that Bernie Sanders hopes he can create will include
millions of people that do not participate in the democratic process.
That`s the Democratic Party we want to create.

HAYES: OK. But isn`t it the case that the medium Democratic voter has a
positive feeling about the Democratic Party, and particularly the person
who sits atop the establishment, which is the most powerful person in the
free world, Barack Obama.

DEVINE: Sure. And, listen, Bernie Sanders has been part of that as a
member of the caucus in the United States House and Senate for the past 25

HAYES: Is he part of the establishment? He`s a sitting senator.

DEVINE: No, you know, I asked him that very person one time, and he said
no. He`s fighting against what he perceives as an establishment that has
rigged an economy and has held in place by corrupt –

HAYES: This reminds me of definition of rich, which is someone who has
more money than you.

Tad Devine, thank you very much.

DEVINE: All right, Chris.

HAYES: All right. Joining me now, Ayanna Pressley. She`s Boston City
councilor at large and surrogate of the Hillary Clinton campaign.

Ms. Pressley, it`s wonderful to have you here.


HAYES: I want to talk about criminal justice. That`s something the
Clinton campaign is running. It`s about the sort of racial double

PRESSLEY: Absolutely.

HAYES: And Ben Jealous was on this program on Friday. He had endorsed
Bernie Sanders, talking explicitly about Hillary Clinton`s record on
criminal justice. I want to play a little bit of that and get your
response to it, if you don`t mind. Take a listen.


BEN JEALOUS, FORMER NAACP PRESIDENT: You see Hillary Clinton continue to
lag behind. This year, she was the only Democratic candidate on stage who
was for the death penalty. In 2008, she was the only one who refused to
support the retroactive application of any change (INAUDIBLE) disparity.
And growing up in the mass incarceration generation seeing real vision and
integrity on issues of sentencing is critical.


HAYES: I mean, the critique here is that whatever she is saying now that
her record is such she`s been late to the issue and ergo, I don`t trust her
to be a leader on it now.

PRESSLEY: Well, she hasn`t changed her position. I think that`s a
selective amnesia. Senator Sanders voted for the 1994 crime bill which
expanded the federal death penalty. So, you know, I`m supporting Secretary

HAYES: Secretary Clinton supported that bill as well.

PRESSLEY: Well, she supported her husband. Senator Sanders actually cast
a vote in support of that legislation.

I also think there`s an unfair mischaracterization of her position on the
death penalty. In the debate, she made a point to offer a distinction
between federal and state offering a high bar for extreme cases such as
Timothy McVeigh, you know, very extreme cases. Because she acknowledges
that in the states, she`s said throughout this campaign, that black and
brown men are disproportionately stopped, searched, arrested and charged.
She`s aware of that.

I`m supporting her because I know she`s committed to meaningful justice

HAYES: OK. So, you mentioned the crime bill which is a touchstone in all
this. I think it`s interesting to watch people reassess that. Bernie
Sanders did vote for that bill.

PRESSLEY: And I`d like to know why he did.

HAYES: I want to – there`s a question about, well, does Hillary Clinton
own that crime bill, which is her husband`s bill, right? She didn`t vote
for it.

This is a clip I saw of her talking about crime and what she called super
predators in 1996. I want you to take a listen.


H. CLINTON: Not just gangs of kids anymore. They are often the kinds of
kids called super predators, no conscience, no empathy. We can talk about
why they ended up that way, but first, we have to bring them to heel.


HAYES: Now, I think hear that language and that`s hard to swallow here in
2016. I mean, have to bring them to heal, talking about kids. What do you
make of that clip?

PRESSLEY: Well, I can tell you that Secretary Clinton believes strong
families make for a strong America. She doesn`t believe there are any bad
children, only bad social conditions.

HAYES: But that`s not what she says.

PRESSLEY: I`m telling you right now, what she`s supporting holistically is
to improve the state and the quality of life of those that are poor and low
income and communities of color that are disproportionately on (INAUDIBLE)

I want to tell you something else – every one talks about black and brown
boys and how they are a proven risk. This candidate for president,
unprompted, acknowledged that we have more young women that are court-
involved than ever before, more women that are incarcerated and she has a
plan for them, which no one has addressed.

HAYES: Here`s my question: you could say she has plan right now, right?
And you can also say, look –

PRESSLEY: She dedicated her life to that. She was working to make sure
juvenile offenders won`t be incarcerated with adults.

HAYES: I want you to respond to the language that she herself use. I`m
not putting words in her mouth. Super predators who have no empathy will
have to be brought to heel. Is that the kind of language –

PRESSLEY: Will have to be brought to heel?

HAYES: Brought to heel.

PRESSLEY: Yes. I mean, listen, that`s a very true saying. We know in the
work that I do every day on the ground in Boston, that, you know, hurt
people, hurt people. It is a very real thing to acknowledge, that because
of broken social conditions and larger social determinants, which Secretary
Clinton is working to improve, that their are people that are growing up
with a deficit of empathy and compassion.

It is a fair point. Hurt people do hurt people.

HAYES: I would say that the point of policy has shifted quite a bit in 20
years. Something for which I`m thankful.

But you can see the rhetorical difference.

Ayanna Pressley, thank you very much. I really appreciate it.

PRESSLEY: Thank you.

HAYES: Still to come, some candidates are in need of a New Hampshire
miracle tomorrow night to keep their campaigns alive, which isn`t unheard

A look at past granite state hail marries next.


HAYES: As former New Hampshire governor John Sununu once quipped, Iowa
picks corn, New Hampshire picks presidents. That is inspirational I think
it`s fair to say. Not always the case in reality.

You can just ask President Pat Buchanan or President Hillary Clinton.

The primaries in years past have provided some incredibly dramatic moments
on the campaign trail, like when right wing commentator Pat Buchanan, who
once advocated for the building of a Buchanan fence along the Mexican
border, challenged a sitting president, George H.W. Bush, in New Hampshire
in 1992.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The New Hampshire economy is such a disaster that
many warn of a big protest vote.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE” I think Mickey Mouse could run against George Bush and
pick up 25 or 30% of the vote.


HAYES: Buchanan did better than that, nabbing 37% or the vote, a second
place finish that sure seemed like a victory.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s president of the United States, Pat Buchanan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He didn`t win but he scored, and big.

little rebellion, has emerged and grown into a full fledged middle American

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But Bush was staggered. Instead of a victory speech, he
managed over a written statement.

He said he was delighted with his win, but that he got the message.


HAYES: Buchanan went on the win the New Hampshire primary four years
later, beating the eventual Republican nominee, Bob Doyle.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Having rolled a live hand grenade into the living
room of the Republican party, rebel Pat Buchanan today taunted the party

BUCHANAN: They had that movie, Sleepless in Seattle. They could call this
establishment in Washington of both parties, Clueless in Washington.


HAYES: On the Democratic side in 1992, Bill Clinton`s presidential
ambitions were in deep trouble, plagued by multiple scandals, and a poor
showing in Iowa.

Clinton still managed to place second in New Hampshire, finishing behind
former Massachusetts Senator, Paul Tsongas. He spun the second place
surprise into a victory.


tonight, has made Bill Clinton the comeback kid.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Down for the count a few days ago, Clinton finished a
strong second, largely on the strength of experience.

CLINTON: I want you to know that I know in November we are going to win a
great victory against Pat Buchanan.


HAYES: A decade and a half later, New Hampshire will once again change the
fortunes of the Clinton campaign. Fresh off a defeat in Iowa and down by
nearly double digits going into New Hampshire, Hillary Clinton`s campaign
was in 2008, much like today, under intense scrutiny.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Insider her campaign, a lot of finger pointing and
possible shake ups.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want everybody who believes in Hillary to come
in –

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m smelling a shake up in the Clinton campaign.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ll bring in more people to help us.


HAYES: Along with rumors of a shakeup, Bill Clinton was also, much like
today, out on the campaign trail attacking his wife`s opponent.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s going after Obama`s claim that he always opposed
the Iraq war.

CLINTON: It is wrong that Senator Obama got to go through 15 debates
trumpeting his superior judgment and how he had been against the war every
Give me a break.


HAYES: Less than 24 hours, everything changed. Hillary Clinton won by
points. The story of a second Clinton comeback dominated the news cycle.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This new day in American politics, following the
stunner in New Hampshire last night. Hillary Clinton pulled off one of the
most amazing comebacks in modern presidential politics, just when it was
thought she was going
down to a double digit defeat at the hands of Barack Obama.

KATIE COURIC, JOURNALIST: I want to tell you, the headline of the New York
Post today, Back from the Dead.


HAYES: This is a state that has proved time and time again that it can
deliver a surprise and change the course of a presidential campaign,
because, it turns out in the end, for all the flaws of American Democracy
at this moment, the voters so often have a mind of their own.

We are just hours away from finding out what`s on their mind here this



DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We`re not allowed to negotiate
drug prices. Can you believe it? And the drug company guys make sure that
you never negotiate the price of drugs.

And the oil guys make sure that all good things happen with respect to oil.

All of these things, that`s the way the system works. I was on the other
side of the system for a long time, and a very big donor. I understand it.


HAYES: Donald Trump is on the campaign trail making his closing argument
in New Hampshire. A state that as we just noted, Pat Buchanan won outright
in 1996 while campaigning as a kind of right wing populist.

Trump, who continues to maintain a comfortable lead in most New Hampshire
polls, despite predictions of implosion just a week ago, and as he attempts
to win his first state, he appears to be emphasizing the most populous
themes of his campaign.

On Sunday night he hammered on about a system that allows big money
contributions, sounding at times more like Bernie Sanders than a man
running to win the Republican nomination.


TRUMP: I don`t agree with Bernie Sanders on much, although, I agree with
him on two things. Trade, on trade, he said we`re being ripped off. He just
doesn`t know how much. I know how much.

He`s right with Hillary because she`s, look, she`s receiving a fortune from
a lot of people.


HAYES: A week ago things looked very different. Trump was of course
defending himself from attacks from Ted Cruz that Trump was insufficiently

In New Hampshire, he appears to be betting that his electoral strength
comes most from his role as an anti-establishment outsider, more than from
touting traditional conservative traditions.

It`s too early to tell if that message is working.

For the Washington Examiner`s Byron York, whether it`s successful is
missing the point. The man leading the Republican race, here I quote, “is
doing so on a platform that would blow up the Republican party that now
exist in Washington”.

Joining me now is Michael Steele, former chair of the RNC, MSNBC political

Now Michael, I want to get your reaction to this amazing moment in the
debate where Trump basically went adversarial on the room, which I`ve never
seen in a debate before. It`s a strange choice.

Take a listen.


JEB BUSH, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: How tough is it take property from
an elderly woman.

TRUMP: Let me talk. Quiet.

BUSH: How tough is it?

TRUMP: A lot of times, a lot of times – that`s all his donors and special
interests out there.

The RNC told us we have all donors in the audience, and the reason they`re
not loving me – the reason they`re not, excuse me – the reason they`re
not loving me is I don`t want their money. I`m going to do the right thing
for the American public. I don`t want their money. I don`t need their
money. And I`m the only one up here that can say that.


HAYES: Now, I should say that the RNC claims that only 75 of 1,000 seats
went to donors.

That was a kind of I welcome their hatred moment, to quote FDR, from Donald

MICHAEL STEELE, FMR. RNC CHAIRMAN: No, exactly. In most cases you see
candidates go after the moderator and score the brownie points there.

Who would go after the audience? Donald Trump. Particularly, when that
audience is not his audience.

So, for him it was a win win. He could go in and smack them around, and, in
fact, a lot of people have claimed since the debate that he did win.

But it says something about this race, and you touched on it coming into
this segment.

This is not an ideological race inside the GOP. This is nothing about
ideology which is why Donald Trump has the kind of cache that he has in a
place like New Hampshire. And to see who`s downstream at a place like South
Carolina, which you would think would be more ideologically rooted.

Again, the frustration with the Washington establishment types allows him
to come in with that same attitude, pick them up and hopefully, as he`s
predicting, carry him on the victory down the road.

HAYES: I`m fascinated by him going the kind of full view cannon. And I
think in some ways it`s attaching acknowledgment that he got drawn into a
debate he couldn`t win in Iowa, which was who`s the most orthodox
conservative. No one can beat Ted Cruz on the debate of who`s the most
orthodox conservative other than Cruz, because his entire political life
has been around Republican orthodoxy.

Instead, you`re seeing him lean into precisely that kind of thing you`re
talking about here.

STEELE: The interesting thing about Iowa is that in talking with some of
the Trump people early on, they really weren`t looking to compete there.
They weren`t looking to play there.They`re very much having the same
attitude as Chris Christie and Jeb Bush, that look, I`m not that hard, rank
and file ideological conservative. Leave that to Cruz.

But something in his head just kind of clicked in. He got a vibe he could
something there. He decided to play and got burned. I think they`ve learned
that and now looking to do something bigger down the road.

HAYES: There were lots of predictions of Trump`s demise and implosions
after the win in Iowa and the loss in Iowa. He`s supposed to be a winner
and he lost. And there`s this question of like, is he going to lose it? And
he`s been fairly subdued in debates. He had just a few moments ago this
moment with the crowd talking about torture and Ted Cruz. Take a listen.


TRUMP: You heard the other night at the debate, they asked Ted Cruz a
serious question, well, what do you think of water boarding? Is it okay.
And, honestly I thought he`d say absolutely. He didn`t.

He said, well, he`s concerned about the answer because some people – she
just said a terrible thing. You know what she said? Shout it out because I
don`t want to say it.


TRUMP: Okay. You`re not allowed to say, and I never expect to hear that
you again. She said, I never expect to hear that from you again. She said
he`s a [ bleep ]. That`s terrible. Terrible.


HAYES: We bleeped that out. He`s referring to a vulgar term of a woman`s
genitals about Ted Cruz. This is what it`s come to, he`s deploying a vulgar
schoolyard insult for a guy who is insufficiently enthusiastic about

STEELE: Yeah. The irony here is, maybe the reality is a lot of folks are
standing more with him than with Ted Cruz, sort of measured consideration
of the question. Donald Trump is, I want to do that and more.


STEELE: And again, it`s this wild thing that – this is the problem,
Chris, and you`re not going to have a dance on this pinhead for the rest of
this political season.

When you get to the general, whether Donald Trump is your nominee or not,
all of this has to come back and will be played out in the general
election. And that nominee is going to have to talk to the country in broad
strokes about some of this
stuff. And that`s going to be very hard to do, I think.

HAYES: That, yes, that approach will not fly.

Michael Steele, thank you for joining me.

STEELES: All right.

HAYES: Coming up, why there`s still so much uncertainty going into

We`ll break down the polling and the expectations just ahead.


HAYES: With just 3 hours and 11 minutes left to go before the first votes
are cast in the first in the nation primary, Hillary Clinton in Hudson, New
Hampshire, after a busy day of campaigning with Chelsea and Bill by her
side, is doing an event.

She has just taking the stage after Jeanne Shaheen opened for her. She is
hoping another surprise victory in New Hampshire could propel her campaign
as it did eight years ago. Polls show Bernie Sanders up quite a bit. But,
if there`s one thing we know about New Hampshire is the polling is deeply

We`re flying blind, we`re going to find out how blind we are though in just
a few hours. Stay with us.


HAYES: When it comes to tomorrow`s primary, there`s a lot of uncertainty.
We know who has a clear lead in polling averages. That`s Bernie Sanders and
Trump. It is safe to say they are the favorites by far tomorrow.

But we also know there`s a history of very unreliable polling in New
Hampshire. On the Republican side this time around we have a jumble in the
middle of three or four different candidates outside of Trump, Cruz, who
have a decent shot of coming in second.

That second place finish is Rubio`s to lose, and he just might lose it to
Bush, Christie or Kasich.

We`re also coming off a weekend that featured a Saturday night debate, a
Sunday night Superbowl, that makes polling difficult. Meaning we`re going
into tomorrow somewhat blind.

And that makes the expectations game more complicated, more fascinating and
more high stakes.

We`ll delve into all that just ahead. Stay with us.


HAYES: Joining me now, Betsy Woodruff, political reporter for the Daily
Beast, and John Nichols, Washington correspondent from my magazine, The
Nation, who introduced but did not endorse Sally Sanders in a rally in
July, and is a long time Sanders follower I would say.

So let`s start on the democratic side. I think that Sanders has actually
had, in a weird way, a disadvantage of the polling gap in New Hampshire has
been so big for so long in a race that was always inevitably going to

I still think a win for him is still a win, and if he gets to do a victory
speech, he won New Hampshire and he moves on.

JOHN NICHOLS, THE NATION: Let`s be honest, a loss is devastating. It`s sort
of like Trump on the other side.

HAYES: That`s right, a loss is like kaput.

NICHOLS: But I think we`ve gotten into this game.

First off, there`s a fantasy. The fantasy of the neighboring state, right?
The truth of the matter is, the neighboring state that matter with New
Hampshire is Massachusetts. It`s not Vermont. So, that`s a little

But the reality here is this. Bernie Sanders has worked this state hard, he
came early, he did a lot here. He`s got a good poll advantage. The truth
is, I think we`re getting close to the point where people will really
analyze if it`s in the single digits.

I suspect the Clinton people will say that if she`s got in the single
digits, she really rose.

HAYES: They have set up that benchmark, I still think because of the fund
raising they have, the money they have, the stuff that they have in the
can. A win, and they go to South Carolina and we see what happens there.

NICHOLS: And the other thing is this. I think for Sanders, it cuts the
other way. A big win for Sanders I think begins to loosen up some of those
remaining labor unions, it starts to get some Democrats in congress. It
opens things up.

HAYES: So, he just mentioned Trump. Let`s start with Trump. I agree. If
Trump doesn`t win tomorrow.

BETSY WOODRUFF, THE DAILY BEAST: He`s a paper tiger. Nothing means

HAYES: Dance on the grave of the Trump campaign.

WOODRUFF: Exactly. We get to call him a loser everyday for the next six
months. It will be really fun.

HAYES: If he does win, let`s say he wins. To me, basically Marco Rubio
really has to come in second or he is in serious trouble, would you agree?

WOODRUFF: I would agree. And, the other thing that`s important is somebody
comes in second and four guys don`t come in second. I was talking to Bill
today, former New Hampshire speaker of the house, a Cruz surrogate, and he
said it`s totally plausible that tomorrow night there will be four guys all
within a point of each other, that`s what the average says, which is really
the worst case scenario for moderate Republicans. That means South Carolina
becomes New Hampshire 2.0.

And it`s another week of them rubbing after his jugular.

HAYES: The other thing you have to remember, the expectation game, there`s
the donor game, there`s the delegates game. From the delegates perspective,
which is actually how this is scored and how the nomination is achieved. If
you come in 14 points, nine point, it doesn`t matter.

WOODRUFF: Voters aren`t following how many delegates there are.

HAYES: What matter is second place means something.

NICHOLS: Second place means everything. Let`s not fantasize about this.
The fact of the matter is Marco Rubio comes in third place after all this.

HAYES: He has two third place finishes.

NICHOLS: His moment fell between Iowa and New Hampshire. That`s bad

HAYES: Now, on the other side, a Ted Cruz second, you could imagine the
kind of like sudden sort of like, oh, we`re now getting the Trump race that
people predicted.

WOODRUFF: Totally. And it would also show that Cruz is competitive with
libertarians. He`s kind of hitched his wagon to the New Hampshire
libertarian star, he needs to do well with them. They`re the New Hampshire
version of evangelicals perhaps.

If he comes in second he shows he can appeal to people who aren`t super
religious, aren`t socially conservative. If he doesn`t do well here, he`ll
have trouble in a general, and he`ll have trouble pitching that he`d do
well in a general.

HAYES: And if you`re Marco Rubio you`re not going to come in second, you
want Christie or Kasich to come in second because they`re the weakest going
into South Carolina. You can justify staying in.

Betsy Woodruff, John Nichols, thank you. We`ll be watching with bated
breath tomorrow.

All right, that is All In for this evening.


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