All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 2/3/2016

Tad Devine, Joel Benenson, Dave Weigel, Jennifer Horn, Grant Bosse

Date: February 3, 2016
Guest: Tad Devine, Joel Benenson, Dave Weigel, Jennifer Horn, Grant Bosse


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN –

hey, I`m going to win by a landslide on Tuesday.

HAYES: Clinton and Sanders trade jabs ahead of their first ever one-on-one
debate tomorrow.

with people who are moderates. Some of my best friends are moderates.

HAYES: The attack Clinton is calling a low blow. And what the Sanders
campaign says is insulting.

Then –

Donald is throwing yet another temper tantrum, or if you like, yet another
Trumper tantrum.

HAYES: Will Donald Trump actually sue Ted Cruz?

HOST: Will you file a formal complaint?

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I probably will, yes. No,
what he did is unthinkable.

HAYES: Plus, we`ll look at the recently departed –

campaign for the presidency.

HAYES: – and those desperately trying to stay in the race.

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: To get back in the business of
creating a more peaceful world. Please clap.

HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from Manchester, New Hampshire. We are in the heart
of it. I am Chris Hayes.

And the once fairly polite contest for the Democratic nomination is now an
all-out high-stakes brawl, a tone of attacks today between Hillary Clinton
and Bernie Sanders getting very, very heated. That comes on the eve of,
what, 24 hours from now will be the very first head-to-head debate of the
entire 2016 cycle, moderated by my colleagues Rachel Maddow and Chuck Todd,
not far from here at the University of New Hampshire.

And as the two Democratic candidates prepare to face off for the first time
since the Iowa caucuses, and since Martin O`Malley suspended his campaign,
a fiery back and forth has broken out over who deserves to be called the
real progressive in the race.

While Clinton is still the favorite to win the nomination, after her narrow
victory in Iowa, New Hampshire looks like Sanders` game to lose at this
point. He`s ahead by more than 17 points in the “Real Clear Politics”
polling average, led every poll in the granite state for the last month.
It`s a sign of the shifting power dynamics in the race.

But today, the Sanders campaign finally got something it`s been pleading
for, for once – more official debates added to the schedule, after Clinton
seeking to make up her New Hampshire deficit agreed to tomorrow night`s
debate. Sanders refused to commit until further matchups were scheduled
late in the spring, an indication his campaign plans to keep fighting until
the end of primary season.

Today, after resisting pressure for months, the DNC approved three
additional debates after tomorrow night`s here in New Hampshire, including
one next month in Flint, Michigan, the site of the lead poisoning crisis.

At a press conference this evening, Sanders said there`s still room to
negotiate further.


SANDERS: They still do not want a debate in New York City and that`s hard
for me to understand. I`m proud and delighted to debate in Vermont any
time the secretary would like to do that. But I don`t know why she doesn`t
want to debate in the state that she represented. In any case, I will be
there tomorrow night.


HAYES: In the homestretch lead-up to Tuesday`s primary, Hillary Clinton is
now attempting a difficult dance, managing expectations for her performance
while simultaneously conveying how much she needs New Hampshire.

It`s a state, of course, that holds special significance for both Clintons.
The site of Bill Clinton`s surprise second-place finish in 1992, and of
Hillary Clinton`s upset of Barack Obama in 2008 after finishing third in

While Sanders didn`t have any public campaign events on his schedule today,
by this hour, Clinton has already attended three different get out the vote
events if three locations around the state. Starting last night according
to “BuzzFeed”, at least 150 staffers from Clinton campaign headquarters in
Brooklyn are making the five-hour drive up to New Hampshire to lend a hand.

At the same time, Clinton has been arguing the deck in New Hampshire is
stacked against her and in favor of her opponent.


CLINTON: A lot of political pundits have been opining, as political
pundits do, that I should have just skipped coming to New Hampshire. Their
argument is, look, you`re behind here. I am. You`re in your opponent`s
backyard. New Hampshire always favors neighbors, which I think is

And, you know, maybe you should have just moved on to some of these other
states where everybody says you`ve got big leads and all of that. I have
to tell you, I just could not ever skip New Hampshire.


HAYES: You know the race is heating up when the Sanders campaign puts out
a statement rebutting Clinton`s spin, quote, “The people of New Hampshire
will go to the polls Tuesday and vote for the candidate they will believe
fight for them. To repeatedly suggest otherwise is an insult to voters in
the Granite State.”

But the latest back and forth between the campaigns is over the newly
popular progressive label on whether Hillary Clinton has earned it. It all
started with a question to Bernie Sanders yesterday from MSNBC`s own Kasie


herself a progressive with a plan. Do you think Hillary Clinton is a

SANDERS: Some days, yes, except when she announces that she is a proud
moderate. Then I guess she`s not a progressive.


HAYES: Sanders were referring to remarks Clinton made at a campaign event
in September, part of her argument for being able to get things done.


CLINTON: You know, I get accused of being kind of moderate and center, I
plead guilty. I think sometimes it`s important when you`re in the elected
arena, you try to figure out how do you bring people together to get
something done?


HAYES: Today, speaking at a campaign stop in southern New Hampshire,
Clinton sounded a bit defensive about Sanders` comments about her own


CLINTON: I was a little disappointed, to be honest, yesterday. It was
kind of a low blow when Senator Sanders said in response to a question,
well, you know, maybe she`s a progressive on, you know, some days. I think
it was a good day for progressives when I helped to get 8 million kids
health care under the Children`s Health Insurance Program.


HAYES: After unleashing a tweet storm this afternoon about what it means
to be progressive, Sanders told reporters he stands by what he says.


SANDERS: There`s nothing wrong with people who are moderates. Some of my
best friends are moderates. But you – you can`t go around saying I`m a
progressive and then say, you know, I`m accused of being a moderate and I
plead guilty.


HAYES: I`m joined now by Tad Devine, senior adviser to the Sanders

And, Tad, in the words of Will Ferrell in “Anchorman” that really escalated
quickly today. Things seemed to go zero to 60.

Was this a strategic choice or did you guys get caught up in what felt like
a Twitter fight between two people as opposed to two people running for

Clinton campaign and Hillary Clinton want to have a fight of who`s the most
progressive, I suppose, you know, we`ll be happy to discuss that for the
next few days. I mean, she said, as your clip just showed, that she pleads
guilty to being moderate in center, and now, she`s telling everybody she`s
very progressive.

I mean, sure, we can have a back and forth on that but the truth is what
Bernie Sanders wants to talk about is the thing he`s been talking about
since the beginning of this campaign, the economy of America is rigged.
It`s sending almost all the new wealth to the top. It`s held in place by a
corrupt system of campaign finance.

So, if we can just talk about that every day, we`ll be very happy.

HAYES: Let me ask you this. Bernie Sanders` official account today said
you can be a moderate or progressive, you can`t be both. He also talked
about the progressives he knows oppose TPP, the big trade deal, Trans
Pacific Partnership.

DEVINE: Right.

HAYES: Is Barack Obama, in your campaign`s view, in the center`s view, is
Barack Obama a moderate or a progressive?

DEVINE: Listen, I think what the president has done is a great example of
progressive leadership. When he came into office this country was
hemorrhaging jobs, 800,000 jobs a month. We were engaged in two wars, by
the way, both he – and the Iraq war in particular – that both he and
Bernie Sanders opposed. OK?

And, you know, so I would say President Obama has absolutely attempted to
assert progressive leadership, but we`ve got to put it in the context of
the circumstances that he found himself when he came in office. The truth
is that the next president can build on the record of achievement of
President Obama and Vice President Biden who took us from the depths of a
second Great Depression and has put the economy on the right course.

The question is, do we want bold, progressive leadership that`s ready to
take on the challenges of our time, ready to fulfill the unfinished agenda
of Franklin Roosevelt? That`s what Bernie Sanders is prosing to do and
that`s the kind of leadership he`ll provide.

HAYES: But your campaign today engaged in this sort of definitional fight
which I think is an interesting one and worthwhile one.


HAYES: Basically saying you can be one or the other.

Some of the things that you are saying about Hillary Clinton that make her
not a progressive, whether it`s supporting the Wall Street bailout, or
supporting regime change in Libya or the Trans Pacific Partnership, those
are also all positions the president shares as well. Is that a problem for
you to be essentially criticizing the president as well?

DEVINE: You know, we`re not running against President Obama. We`re
running against Hillary Clinton.

And Hillary Clinton one day wants to say she`s a moderate and a centrist
and then the next day wants to say she`s a progressive. I guess it depends
whether she`s in Ohio or she`s in New Hampshire.

I mean, the truth is, you know, that`s where our campaign is focused about
Hillary Clinton, about her positions on issues. For example, if you want
to be a progressive, you should be in favor of breaking up the big banks.
OK? That is a progressive economic position.

If you want to be a progressive, you should be like President Obama and
Bernie Sanders opposed to the death penalty. OK? That`s a progressive

So, listen, our fight is with Hillary Clinton. And if she wants to have a
fight over who`s progressive and who`s not, we`re happy to have it.

HAYES: Tad, I don`t think President Obama is opposed to the death penalty.

DEVINE: OK. Well, you know, well Bernie Sanders is, and Hillary Clinton
supports –

HAYES: I know.

DEVINE: – the death penalty. There`s a big difference there.

And, listen, if you can look at their records, going back now, she wants to
take a look at a long record of Bernie Sanders and all the things he has
supported in the course of his career, I think you will find it`s a
remarkable progressive agenda, you know, that he has supported progressive
policies since the time he was the mayor of Burlington, Vermont, and
certainly pursued him in the course of his service in 25 years in the House
of Representatives and also in the United States Senate.

So, you know, that contrast is there, but for Hillary to say that one day,
she`s a moderate and centrist, the next day, she`s a progressive – I mean,
I think that shows real inconsistency and it also shows that she`s willing
to say basically anything to anybody to win their support.

HAYES: All right. Tad Devine, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

DEVINE: Thank you.

HAYES: Joining me now, Joel Benenson, chief strategist and pollster for
the Clinton campaign here in Manchester.

So, I am – I am actually bewildered by this, because it doesn`t seem to me
the kind of argument the Clinton campaign wants to get into as is who is to
the left of whom with Bernie Sanders. Is that really the fight you want to

is about integrity, frankly, and I think Bernie Sanders wants to act as if
he`s the judge of integrity among progressives.

You know, it`s pretty interesting. I heard Tad talk about inconsistencies.
They`re being quite inconsistent right now. He`s saying they`re running to
build on the progress President Obama`s made. That was a different song
than Sanders f was singing in 2011 when he called the president weak, a
disappointed to millions of people, hadn`t stood up to the right week and
urged people to run in a primary against him.

HAYES: Wait, this is my favorite thing about this.


HAYES: Let me – this gets to the definitional point. In the graphic
today tweeted today about things that may not make Bernie Sanders
progressive, one is them is call for President Obama to be primaried,


HAYES: Well, but this gets to the definitional issue. Like, clearly, he
wanted to primary him from the left.

BENENSON: But here`s the bigger point.

HAYES: Right? He didn`t want a primary from the right.

BENENSON: The bigger point – well, first of all, that may be true. The
bigger point is, the issues that he wants to decide are progressive, he
doesn`t get to decide that. If you look at Bernie Sanders as well, you
know, you can stand here after listening to Tad, you can stand here and
say, well, look, on the days that Bernie Sanders voted five times against
the Brady Bill, that wasn`t very progressive. When he voted against Ted
Kennedy`s immigration bill, that certainly wasn`t very progressive.

I think there`s a host of things like that when he voted to give gun
immunity to gun manufacturers from liability, that`s not very progressive.

So, the point here is he`s making an attack on secretaries Clinton,
Secretary Clinton`s progressive values and her consistency in being a
progressive fighter on behalf of people and making a difference. And
that`s what she`s done –

HAYES: Do you think there`s not tension saying I`m a moderate, I`m a
centrist, I`m a progressive, because if you can be all of those things at
once, what do those words mean?

BENENSON: Well, first of all –

HAYES: Right?

BENENSON: I think the points here, the labels, what they jumped on is a
question she answered in a debate very specifically. What Secretary
Clinton said at that point, I`m a progressive who likes to get things done.
She said to get things done sometimes you don`t get your way.

Maybe Senator Sanders hasn`t noticed that. It`s been pretty tough on
President Obama. You have to work with moderates, you have to work with

HAYES: Sure.

BENENSON: She did that, by the way, to reform the foster care system with
Tom DeLay, one of the most conservative Republicans during a terrible
period in the –

HAYES: Right. And Bernie Sanders would say he worked with John McCain on
passing the V.A. bill, right? I mean, anyone in Congress worked across the
aisle. My question to you is –

BENENSON: That`s not true.

HAYES: Anyone on the Democratic side –

BENENSON: Secretary Clinton`s done it a lot more than most and a lot more
than most Democrats, too.

HAYES: Here`s the question. I mean, would you say that Secretary Hillary
Clinton, her politics, her views, her ideology to the world view is to the
left of Bernie Sanders?

BENENSON: I would say she`s a progressive. I don`t have to be to the left
of Bernie Sanders to be a progressive. He`s not the litmus test for who a
progressive is. Let`s be clear about that.

HAYES: I just want to make sure on what we`re talking about.

BENENSON: Just like they attack President Obama for not being a

HAYES: Right.

BENENSON: You know, he`s promoting a book now that talks about buyer`s
remorse and his consultant stood up and said they`re running on building on
his record. I mean, come on.

If they want to make it about consistency and progressive values, Hillary
Clinton over 40 years has done one progressive thing after another.

HAYES: But she has also done things that liberals have not liked, right?
I mean, voting for the Iraq war, for instance. Was that a progressive – I
mean, to say – to say on some days, the way you voted for the Iraq war is
not a very progressive day?

BENENSON: I don`t think decisions on foreign policy is where progressives
come in. If Bernie Sanders wants a debate about foreign policy, and who`s
got a better view of the world right now in commander in chief, we`ll have
that debate. He`s been completely wrong on what he`s laid out on how to
fight ISIS. Every foreign policy experts, ten put out a letter in fact,
saying what he would do would create more chaos in the region. You know,
that`s a question of judgment.

Hillary Clinton has the judgment. That`s why Barack Obama picked her to be
his secretary of state. And, you know, we`ll run on those issues against
them all day long. He doesn`t want to talk about foreign policy in this

So, you want to use that –

HAYES: He does here.

BENENSON: Yes, he does. He wants to use a vote on a foreign policy
question, 15 years ago, 12 years ago, whatever the number was, that`s his

But let`s have an honest debate about the issues, and which one of these
two people is going to stand up for making a differences in their lives
because of their progressive values?

I`m glad that Tad just praised President Obama, and if you want to go back
to what President Obama said about Hillary Clinton just recently in an
article in one of the – I think it was in “Politico,” right, she is the
person who knows how to take a progressive values and put them to work for
people and get things done.

HAYES: Here`s my question to you. The closing argument in Iowa, which was
this ad you guys, we don`t have time to sort of deal with the stuff in
theory, right, on things that are never going to happen.

When you`re talking about Hillary Clinton`s college plan, which I`ve read,
right, which is not free universal tuition free, it`s structured a little
digit differently and Bernie Sanders, right, which is free tuition.
Neither of those are happening with the Republican House.

So, who are kidding? I mean, if the argument is we don`t have the free
tuition one, we have the more structured one, we just saw seven years of
what the Republicans did to Barack Obama. You think either of those are
going to pass the Republican House?

BENENSON: I think if one of those bills has a chance, it`s Hillary
Clinton`s, because what it does is it calls on everybody to do their part.
Students who get the break –

HAYES: If you honestly think you could see Republicans saying to President
Hillary Clinton we`re going to work with you on this higher ed bill?

BENENSON: Of course I can. If she gets elected president which I believe
she will, right, the Republicans are going to have to come to terms with
the fact that what they`ve been opposing and standing against the interests
of working men and women and the fight she`s making on their behalf,
they`re going to have to move somewhere in the center here to make up some
ground or continue losing some of these elections.

HAYES: That`s the first time I`ve heard the theory articulated expressly
and I think it`s an interesting one, important one.

Joel, it`s great to have you here.

BENENSON: Great to be here, Chris. Thank you.

HAYES: All right. Still to come, a lot of show. Donald Trump accuses Ted
Cruz of stealing the Iowa caucuses. It`s getting good over there.

Plus, President Obama checks off another first during his last year in
office. Where he went this afternoon and what he said.

And later, the post-Iowa exodus continues. Republican candidates, as more
drop from the race. The recently departed, ahead here from New Hampshire
when we come back.



HAYES: There`s not a part of you that thinks to yourself, that there`s
something sort of profound and urgent about electing a woman president?

woman will not do. I`m waiting for the woman that I actually believe will
bring forward all of our values equally together.


HAYES: That was part of my conversation with the Bernie Sanders supporter
right here in New Hampshire.

Coming up, I sit down with three registered Democrats in the Granite State,
one for Sanders, one for Clinton and one still making up his mind. That`s
just ahead.


HAYES: Donald Trump is not here in New Hampshire tonight. He is holding a
rally in Little Rock, Arkansas.

While Trump was surprisingly gracious in the very immediate aftermath in
his loss to Ted Cruz in the Iowa caucuses, it has not taken long for the
Donald to revert to form, today unleashing a string of harsh, one might
even say unhinged, attacks on the man who defeated him two nights ago.


TRUMP: He really lies. I mean, I don`t like to use that term, but he
really lies, and I now know why there`s not one U.S. senator that`s
supporting him. He works with these people. And why everybody considers
him to be not a very nice person. What he did to Ben Carson was a


HAYES: Trump spent the day, Cruz for allegedly stealing the Iowa caucuses
arguing the state of Iowa should disqualify Cruz over voter fraud and
suggesting he plans to file a formal complaint.


HOST: Will you file a formal complaint? You said that everybody is, but
have you or will you?

TRUMP: Well, I probably will, yes. No, what he did is unthinkable. He
said the man has just left the race and he said it during the caucus.


HAYES: Trump cited a controversial mailer from the Cruz campaign that
appeared to be an official document accusing Iowans of, quote, “voting
violation”, as well as the Cruz campaign as you just heard falsely
indicating on caucus night that Ben Carson was dropping out of the race and
that Carson supporters should caucus for Cruz. That is something Cruz has
apologized for.


DR. BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It`s clear that there were
people who tried to take advantage of a situation, who tried to distort
information. There`s no question about that.


HAYES: Campaigning in New Hampshire today, Cruz dismissed Trump`s
complaints as sour grapes.


CRUZ: I think it is no surprise that Donald is throwing yet another temper
tantrum or if you like, yet another Trumper tantrum. It seems his reaction
to everything is to throw a fit, to engage in insults, and I understand
that Donald finds it very hard to lose. That he finds that very difficult
for him. But at the end of the day, the Iowa people spoke.


HAYES: Joining me now, NBC News correspondent Katy Tur who has been
covering the Trump campaign this season, Sam Stein, senior politics editor
at “The Huffington Post.”

So, Trump came out, everyone was like, oh, that was gracious. That was
sort of surprisingly muted. And then we saw, he went on a Twitter drag
last night.

KATY TUR, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: This is what he does, though. He`s
gracious one night, he goes on the attack the next day. We`ve seen him be
nice, seen him be mean. He goes up and down. He`s unpredictable in that
way – he`s actually predictable because he goes up and down.

I think that Donald Trump doesn`t like to lose. He took his personally.
He`s angry at Ted Cruz. He`s angry at how Ted Cruz won and he`s going to
try to manipulate the system, the situation to benefit him by spinning the

HAYES: Do you not think – so the question about this, like, there`s all
this, like, obviously everyone`s enjoying this. A lot of people are
enjoying this because –

TUR: It`s entertaining.

HAYES: It`s entertaining. And also because, you know, he built this brand
as a winner, then he lost, people are calling him a sore loser.

Is this strategic or is he just ticked off?

TUR: I don`t think this is strategic at all. I think the campaign – I
think he really thought he was going to win Iowa. I think, you know, when
I talked to sources on the ground from his campaign in Iowa, they said they
really didn`t have the support from the national office, didn`t have the
money, didn`t have enough people, couldn`t go up against Ted Cruz.

There are people out there who are thinking that they really pushed in the
last couple weeks in Iowa, because of that they didn`t come in third. I
mean, they were maybe at risk of coming in third there. So, I think there
was a real wake-up call and I think he`s trying to figure out how it went
wrong and the best way that Donald Trump knows how to do that at this
moment is by being in the attack mode. He doesn`t have a second act.

HAYES: So, here`s, Sam, if you were to describe the way that this kind of
pundit class and the media have, and the political professionals have
interpreted Donald Trump –


HAYES: Yes, well, you. I`m an outsider. I`m not an establishment

That basically it`s gone from wildly undervaluing to wildly overvaluing his
chances I think.

STEIN: I think that`s right.

HAYES: There`s no way, there`s no way, it`s beat Trump, then a few weeks
ago it was like the guy is going to get the nominee, no question. I think
it swung back where people think they`re watching the death spiral now but
I don`t buy that.

STEIN: I agree with you. I think there is the undervalue/overvalue. I
think part of it is we are really obsessed as a media enterprise with
polling numbers and polling numbers in a primary can be wildly
inconsistent. 2008 New Hampshire is great example of that, where we just
assumed Obama was going to win the state based off the Iowa results, and,
of course, we had the great Clinton surprise.

One thing that`s interesting about Trump right now, you know him better
than anyone, I just think he must realize that that loss is an existential
threat to his brand. His brand was, is winning. He`s a winner. For him
to be humiliated in that respect that he didn`t come in first, he obviously
didn`t put in the resources because they`re traceable. He did not spend
that much money. It must be in his estimation a real threat to what he`s
trying to project.

And so, that`s why I think he`s lashing out in this way because he has to
reclaim that aura of I`m the big guy, I`m the center of the stage.

TUR: Needs to spin the headline.

HAYES: Right. You also – you had a great picture the other day of them
passing out, Trump people passing out essentially flyers to come walk and
talk, do ground canvassing for Donald Trump, something this campaign has
not done at all.

STEIN: I got an e-mail today. They`re organizing in Washington, D.C.,
which is very strange. I hadn`t seen that e-mail. But the Trump campaign
is now soliciting organizers in Washington, D.C.

TUR: Listen, Donald Trump`s campaign manager is from New Hampshire. He is
a New Hampshire operative. He worked for AFP up here. He, as I`m told by
people who know him up here, was very good at stirring up anger and getting
people to vote out of anger. That`s what he has done with this campaign.

HAYES: Right.

TUR: What they said he hasn`t been so good at, what they don`t think he
really knows how to do, maybe they`ll prove everybody wrong with this next
week, is the ground game. That it hasn`t been as consistent here.

I spoke with one GOP person who said that they didn`t see any evidence of
the ground game from the Trump campaign until this month. And in fact,
those flyers I saw yesterday, that`s the first time I`ve seen them hand
that out.

And so, they say they have thousands of calls made to volunteers, they say
thousands of doors have been knocked on, they say they have seven phone
banks right now with volunteers doing that. They say there are people
coming in from Missouri, from Connecticut, all coming in to help get out
the word for Donald Trump. But we haven`t seen that.

HAYES: Right.


TUR: – because the campaign won`t let us see it.

HAYES: So, here`s my prediction is there is no way we get through this
campaign without Donald Trump suing Ted Cruz. I`m serious. And yesterday,
particularly all this stuff he`s been talking about how Ted Cruz is not
actually a natural-born citizen. Trump now has cause, he has injury,
right? I mean –

STEIN: The standing question.

HAYES: The standing question, like, we are going to see Donald Trump sue
Ted Cruz at some point if he`s losing, don`t you agree?

TUR: I don`t know.

HAYES: You don`t think so?

TUR: I don`t know. I don`t think so.


HAYES: I`m not making predictions about where (INAUDIBLE) but I am
predicting that.

STEIN: I will avoid that question. I`m going to pose a question to you.
I heard this from Jacob Weisberg (ph) about why Trump may have done poorly
in Iowa, could do well in New Hampshire. In caucus setting, you have to
announce who you support.

HAYES: Well, that`s actually little misleading.

TUR: No, no –

HAYES: On the Democratic side, yes or no.

On the Republican side, it`s a secret ballot. That said, it`s a very
public environment. Right? So there`s this real question about, are
people – there`s a question about are people telling pollsters they`re
voting for Donald Trump and they`re not showing up or –

STEIN: The reverse.

HAYES: The reverse, people don`t actually want to tell people. That is
going to all play out on Tuesday and we are flying blind. We have no idea

TUR: He`s up by 24 points here.

HAYES: Yes, that means nothing.

STEIN: If only Donald Trump knew a billionaire who could give a lot of
money to his campaign and actually the ground work.

HAYES: Push him over the edge.

Katy Tur and Sam Stein, thank you both.

TUR: Thanks.

STEIN: Thanks, Chris.

HAYES: Coming up, establishment candidates or so-called establishment
candidates are getting desperate as they try to claw their way to third or
better. We will look at the scrum ahead.


HAYES: We`re live from Manchester, New Hampshire, just hours away from the
first head-to-head debate of the entire 2016 presidential cycle. It`s
amazing to think about that. We have not had a one-on-one debate, but
tomorrow night right here on MSNBC, Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders will
face off for the first time since Monday`s nailbiter of a caucus in Iowa.

So what do Democratic primary voters in New Hampshire want to hear from the
candidates? Earlier I spoke with three of them – Clay Lasher, a survivor
of gun
violence, and is supporting Hillary Clinton, Monica Johnson, an 18-year-old
student who is backing Bernie Sanders, while Dan Weeks who runs a non-
profit watchdog group focused own money in politics is at this point still

The four of us sat down at Murphy`s Diner right here in Manchester to
discuss the battle for the heads and hearts of the Democratic primary


CLAY LASHER, GUN VIOLENCE SUPPORTER: I think one of the great things
that`s happening in this campaign is that we have two Democrats that except
for a few
things really complement each other. I feel like I have to be very
pragmatic right now and I believe that when we look at Citizens United
being overturned, when we look at climate change, when we look at student
loans and we look at all these things that we really have to work on, I
believe in my heart in being pragmatic and who can, who`s been actually
tenacious her whole career, and so I just think I need to bring that up.

I mean, she gets it done.

HAYES: Let me ask you this. So there`s two arguments that people tend to
be making right now about pragmatism, right. So, one of them is about the
toolset that Hillary Clinton has.

LASHER: Right.

HAYES: Right, that she`s very pragmatic, she can operate the machinery of
governance. That`s one set of argument about pragmatism, right.

LASHER: Right, it is.

HAYES: Like she knows where to find compromise, how to work with people
across differences.

The other pragmatism which personally I think is sort of more compelling
because it`s just who`s going to win, right? I mean, those are different.

LASHER: Right. They`re very different.

HAYES: Let me ask you this. Do you think – do you think a 74-year-old
Democratic Socialist is going to be elected president of the United States?

MONICA JOHNSON, STUDENT: I obviously would love him to be. I think
there`s a good chance. I really do. I feel like he`s definitely
resonating with people especially the youth, hence, myself.

But I know a lot of, like, my friends and a lot of people who going into
this election thought that Hillary was just going to sweep the floor and I
feel like
Bernie`s definitely, like, making a name for himself.

HAYES: You honestly believe, you believe the United States of America, you
can imagine a day on January 20th, 2017, when Bernard Sanders takes the
oath of the bible?

JOHNSON: Again, yes.

DAN WEEKS, UNDECIDED: He is creating that political revolution that he
talks about. And that excites me a lot as a democracy guy who wants to see
high school kids excited about voting for the first time. And so, you
know, I hope this continues, I really do. I want – we need a political
revolution where we`re going get the billionaires out in terms of the
dominance of our politics by big money.

I hope that they will both kind of compete for the leadership of that, you
know, taking that mantle to get the big money out and they`re great on
paper. I hope they`ll show that passion in their rhetoric in this primary.

HAYES: Clay, Monica, Dan, thank you very much, really appreciate it.

LASHER: thank you very much.




president needs to be a lot quieter but send a signal that we`re prepared
to act in the national security interests of this country, to get back in
the business of creating a more peaceful world.

Please clap.


HAYES: That was Jeb Bush politely imploring for applause here in
New Hampshire, today. He is one of four candidates with the general
approval from
the Republican Party elites and the donor class who include Marco Rubio,
Chris Christie, and John Kasich, all of whom all need a third-place finish
or better in New Hampshire. Of course, that`s mathematically impossible
for all of them to do
so which makes for an interesting dynamic, each of them trying to finish
ahead of the other three.

Today, Bush took out a full-page ad in New Hampshire Union Leader with an
open letter from eight of the last 10 Republicans speakers of the Florida
House saying that Bush is a better choice for president, not the former
Florida speaker Senator Marco Rubio.

Governor Chris Christie has continued his attacks on Rubio, portraying him
as a lightweight.


GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) NEW JERSEY: The way he`s been treated so far on
the campaign trail by his own staff kind of reminds me of the boy in the
bubble. You know, he never answers questions. He never holds gaggles.
He`s very controlled. And the boy in the bubble has got to get out of the
bubble if you want to be president of the United States.


HAYES: Today, Rubio was asked about attacks from Bush and Christie. He
brushed them off, refused to hit back.

He did, however, chose to take a shot at the Cruz campaign for telling
ahead of the Iowa caucus that Ben Carson was dropping out.


SEN. MARCO RUBIO, (R) FLORIDA: Obviously we`ve all seen the reports of the
rumors they spread about Ben Carson and we know those weren`t accurate.
And I thought it was unfair to Ben.

And, you know, ultimately I think it goes back to what I said before, and
that is a willingness to say or do anything, in this case spread a false
rumor about Ben Carson.


HAYES: As for John Kasich, well, he`s taking the politically pacifist


GOV. JOHN KASICH, (R) OHIO: I don`t – not going to get into Trump and
this and that. I got about five more days to go and you know what, I`m not
attacking anybody. And I wish everybody would stop attacking everybody
else and have a positive message.


HAYES: Joining me now, Grant Bosse, editorial page editor for The New
Hampshire Union Leader, which has endorsed Chris Christie and Jennifer
Horn, chair of the Republican Party of New Hampshire.

And Jennifer, let me start with you. So, the guiding framework that has
been used I think by almost everyone covering this race is that those four
candidates, Marco Rubio, Jeb Bush, Chris Christie, and John Kasich are all
of whom are polling around 10 points, 9 to 11 somewhere in there, are more
or less all fighting for the same pool of votes of Republican primary
voters in New

Does that scan to you as someone know who knows this party as well as

there`s some accuracy there, absolutely.

You know, when you look at the polls as recently as yesterday or the day
before, anywhere from 50 percent to 60 percent of our voters are still
undecided. And so obviously that`s…

HAYES: That`s a lot.

HORN: Exactly. That`s a lot. And that`s why I always sort of caution
folks when they come in and start looking at New Hampshire, it is different
than some other states that get a lot of political attention.

So, you know, that`s what this whole week is about, all those clips you
just showed. This whole week is about them trying to really close the deal
with all those undecided voters. And the question becomes, are those
voters going to kind of split between four, five, six different

HAYES: Right.

HORN: Or are they going to coalesce between two or three?

HAYES: Yeah, I mean, is there any sense – I think there was this – my
line about Marco Rubio is that it`s almost like watching – it`s like the
way an adult
tries to will a toddler to do a difficult task is the way that certain
political professionals in the Republican Party are towards Marco Rubio,
like they keep
predicting the Rubio bump, he comes in third, everyone says he`s the
winner. And there`s a sense of like, okay, let`s all coalesce around this

Pat Toomey endorses him today. I think you`ll probably see other big
endorsements. Do you think New Hampshire Republican voters care about that
push to coalesce around Rubio that`s coming from some corners?

Republican voters. No, we don`t. We`re very independent. Candidates
rarely get an Iowa bump into New Hampshire.

It helps them down the road but it doesn`t help them into New Hampshire.

Ted Cruz, he is not skipping New Hampshire but he`s not seriously
contesting it, because he knows he`s not going to get an Iowa bump and he`s
probably not going to do all that great in New Hampshire. He doesn`t need
to. He`s kind of gotten a bye to South Carolina.

So, New Hampshire voters move quickly at the end and they generally move to
one, maybe two candidates.

So you`ve got four candidates, five including Carly Fiorina, fighting for
maybe two spots to get down to South Carolina.

HAYES: You`ve endorsed Chris Christie. You and I have talked about him
on the air. I want to play you something he said today at a campaign even
in New Hampshire about Hillary Clinton. Take a listen.

Oh. Okay. Sorry. We don`t have the sound.

He says “you know the last person she wants to see on the stage in
September, you`re looking at him. You know why? She`s been running away
from federal prosecutors for the last six months. Man, she sees a federal
prosecutor on the stage, I`ll beat her rear end on that stage. And you know
what, after I do, she`ll be relieved because she`ll just be worried I`d
serve her with a subpoena.”

I`ll beat her rear end on the stage. What kind of thing is that to say?

BOSSE: It`s a metaphor. I think people are fine with that.

HAYES: You think it`s appropriate?

BOSSE: Yeah, It`s a figure of speech and I think people realize what he`s
talking about, that Hillary Clinton`s got her own problems with the law and
facing a prosecutor in a debate might be the least of her worries.

HAYES: Let me ask you this, you have tangled, I think almost
unidirectionally with Donald Trump who has had some nasty things to say
about you, which puts you in massive company.

HORN: No one ever says nasty things about me. I don`t know what you`re

HAYES: So, Donald Trump has had some harsh words for you. Can you
genuinely be impartial in this process given that?

HORN: Of course. This primary…

HAYES: You don`t hate the guy and hope he loses?

HORN: I don`t hate anybody.

HAYES: is that true?

HORN: Of course it`s true.

Listen, this race is about figuring out who is the best person to take on
Hillary Clinton in the fall. This is about offering America a leader who
can correct the of the past seven years and make sure that we don`t end
with a president who is widely and proven a proven liar in the White House.
That`s what this primary`s about.

That`s what all of…

HAYES: Can I tell you guys – I know you feel about that, and you`re not
saying that just to say it. You feel that`s the case.

President Obama`s approval rating right now is almost exactly what Reagan`s
was at this point in the second term. He`s at 50 percent today in Gallup.

Do you think the Republican bubble, as it were, Republicans talking to
Republicans in a primary, lose sight of the popularity of the president?

HORN: I think that there`s no question that sometimes folks, you know, you
hang out with the people who agree with you.

HAYES: Which is what the primary process is, let`s remember.

HORN: However, the vast majority of Americans believe that Hillary Clinton
is dishonest. The word that they most closely associate with her is
dishonest and liar.

I think that is what`s going to drive this election.

HAYES: do you have a stake in this Democratic debate? Is there a
candidate you think is easier to beat?

BOSSE: I think Bernie Ssanders is not necessarily a candidate that
translates very well, and I don`t think Democrats will allow him to be the

HAYES: Well, this is…

BOSSE: I think Hillary Clinton is a massively overrated candidate. I
think she`s a bad candidate to put on the ballot.

I think Democrats have other candidates out there that would have been
stronger against the Republican nominee.

HAYES: All right, Grant Bosse, Jennifer Horn, thank you both. Appreciate

Coming up, the culling of the Republican field continues as Rand Paul
becomes one of two candidates to drop out today. That`s just ahead.



safe. They`re our police and our firefighters. They`re in homeland
security in our intelligence community. They serve honorably in our armed
forces, meaning they fight and bleed and die for our freedom. Some rest in
Arlington national cemetery.


HAYES: The first time in his presidency, Barack Obama visited a mosque
today, the Islamic society of Baltimore, where he gave perhaps the most
detailed and effecting speech any American president, maybe any American
politician, has
ever made on the religion of Islam.

It comes after Congressman Keith Ellison, one of only two Muslim members of
congress, was on our show last fall calling for President Obama to visit a
mosque in the final year of his presidency.

Today`s visit comes at a time of increased attacks against Muslim-Americans
in mosques, some of them violent, hateful and bigoted campaign rhetoric.
And calls for Muslims to be banned from entering the country and polling
showing a significant number of Americans agree with them.

Obama`s mosque visit today even at this late stage in his presidency served
as an important reminder of the core vision of religion pluralism that
represents the very best of the American tradition.


OBAMA: If you`re ever wondering whether you fit in here, let me say it as
clear as I can as president of the united states. You fit in here. Right
here. You`re right where you belong. You`re part of America, too. You`re
not Muslim or American. You`re Muslim and American.



HAYES: Tonight, the once enormous Republican field is looking noticeably
svelter. With just five days to go until New Hampshire`s first in the
primary, the GOP field is narrowing.

Just moments ago, Rick Santorum suspended his campaign saying his talents
could be better used elsewhere.


GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, FOX NEWS: Does that mean you are suspending…

suspending our campaign as of this moment.

VAN SUSTEREN: Okay. This is the official announcement.

SANTORUM: We decided that I think we can be better advocates for that in
supporting someone who shared those values.


HAYES: Santorum, who won Iowa last time around, has struggled the entire
way through this cycle. Once showing up to an event in Iowa finding no one
there and
sitting down to order a milkshake.

Former senator from Pennsylvania never made it onto the main stage debate
and finished in Iowa with just under 2,000 total votes or 1 percent.

Santorum becomes the second Republican in just the last 12 hours to drop
out, the third this week alone. This morning, Rand Paul, who finished with
5 percent of the vote in Iowa, also announced he, too, would suspend his
candidacy for the presidency. Paul, who is low on cash and now facing a
Democratic challenge to his senate seat in Kentucky, which he`s up for this
year, said he will be focusing on that Senate seat race.

Paul was once hailed by Time magazine as the most interesting man in
politics and believed by many to be the candidate to bring the libertarian
movement into the mainstream of the Republican Party building on his
father`s coalition.

That`s not quite what happened. We`ll ask what doomed the Rand Paul
candidacy and get an answer from the one person in the best position to
answer it, next.



Paul shouldn`t even be on this stage. He`s number 11. He`s got 1 percent
in the polls.

He attacks me. He`s now down to 2 percent.

I don`t think you heard me, you`re having a hard time tonight.

What`s going on with this guy?

I never attacked him on his look. And believe me, there`s plenty of
subject matter right there.

You know, he`s a nasty guy.

I said, Rand, I`ve had you up to here. I`ve had you.

All of a sudden, I see him chirping on the stage. He`s like chirping. I
said who is that over there, that person? Who is he?


HAYES: Joining me now, Dave Weigel who covers national politics for
The Washington Post. And Dave, I first met you I think nine years ago and
you were the guy covering Rand Paul. The Libertarian movement, the Ron
Paul revolution. You`ve covered Ron Paul and Rand Paul for nine years.
Why did this not work out for Rand Paul?

DAVE WEIGEL, THE WASHINGTON POST: The easiest way to understand it is
maybe think of a place that sells really good sandwiches, right, and think
if that place tried to sell Chinese food and tried to sell pasta and tried
to sell steak. He tried to be too many things to too many people. And he
didn`t have the personality or the interest in carrying that off.

And he thought he could add to his father`s coalition. And what he learned
very quickly, and couldn`t really undo, was that if you try to add or
change anything to the pure libertarian message, people just bolt and they
don`t trust you

HAYES: Right, because Ron Paul actually did much better. He always had
his sort of bloc, 15 percent to 20 percent of the primary electorate that
he superserved in terms of talk radio. I mean, he was diehard with them.

And you could tell Rand kind of came from that world obviously and thought
he could give a Libertarianism light that would work.

WEIGEL: He did, but he was not as much of kind of America first alternate
right person as Ron Paul was.

I mean, Ron Paul – it was a scandal every time he ran, that he had some
Buchanan-ish views on race in the long past and they never hurt him as much
as anything Rand Paul did when it came to foreign policy.

There were just people I think who gravitated more to Donald Trump who is
by no means a libertarian. It`s really hard to pin down ideologically, but
had it turned out had come to Ron Paul for sort of cultural, tribal,
patriotic reasons and then didn`t see it in Rand.

HAYES: Right, Sand Paul ditched the kind of ethno nationalism, which is
the sort of polite term I`ve been using for what is frankly white
supremacy, and kept the libertarianiam and lost people to Donald Trump who
has got – doesn`t have a libertarian bone in his body but carried the
mantle of that ethno nationalism.

WEIGEL: Yeah, Rand was trying to prove that a broader libertarian message
would draw in more people, and it just didn`t. And there are lots of
reasons why it didn`t happen with the competition he had in this race. But
I think by going to the Senate, he`s going to be an influential figure in a
way that his father really couldn`t. His father built a movement that you
could tell wanted to reach out and become a bit more moderate, a bit more
friendly on criminal rights and things like
that, the younger generations that worked for Ron and then went to Rand I
think are going to remain important in a way this presidential campaign did

HAYES: He also – it strikes me also that it`s about how much ideology
really matters to…

WEIGEL: Right.

HAYES: …excuse me, to Republican primary voters, right. I mean, it
proves to be maybe not as important as it does to a true believer like a
kind of Paul-like disciple.

WEIGEL: It does.

And I thought one turning point for Rand was that he signed Tom Cotton`s
letter saying that the Iran deal – saying to Iran that it turns out
there`s a senate that might block this deal, and I saw when Rand came to
New Hampshire right after that down the road a mile away, people really
didn`t like that. People wanted him to be anti-war. He wouldn`t. And
some of them went to Bernie Sanders instead of him for that reason.

HAYES: Dave Weigel. Thank you so much for being here in Manchester, New

That does it for us on All In this evening live from Manchester, New
Hampshire. The Rachel Maddow Show starts right now.


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