All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 10/08/15

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN -- REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R), CALIFORNIA: I think I shocked some of you, huh? HAYES: A political earthquake on the Hill. MCCARTHY: This will be a best step foot -- footstep -- HAYES: House Republicans take down another one of their own. REP. PETER KING (R), NEW YORK: We are going to give the appearance of being a banana republic. HAYES: Reports of crying in the cloak room as chaos and confusion rumors fill the capitol. REP. DON YOUNG (R), ALASKA: Move out of the way. HAYES: Tonight, full analysis as the man who gave up the "Get Hillary" game on the Benghazi committee becomes that committee`s first political victim. MCCARTHY: Well, that wasn`t helpful. HAYES: Plus, mutiny at a Trump rally. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Trump! HAYES: Martin O`Malley on how he plans to work with dysfunctional Republicans. And the hypothetical bravado of Ben Carson. BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I would say, hey, guys, everybody attack him. HAYES: Versus the real-life story of Ben Carson. CARSON: Guy comes in, puts the gun in my ribs, and I just said, I believe that you want the guy behind the counter. HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now. (END VIDEOTAPE) HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. An absolutely astounding turn of events on Capitol Hill today, where the heir apparent to what is arguably the second most powerful job in Washington suddenly withdrew from consideration, leaving the House Republican caucus in an unprecedented state of disarray. In fact, the last time there was this much uncertainty around the next speaker of the House was probably back in 1860 when they had a few other problems to deal with at the time. Until last night, Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy`s path to the speakership seemed like a foregone conclusion. It takes 218 votes in the House and neither his two challengers, Jason Chaffetz of Utah or Daniel Webster of Florida, appeared to have the support to put up a real fight. But then Webster was endorsed yesterday but roughly 40 members of the House Freedom Caucus, the conservative group behind the plot to shut down the government over Planned Parenthood funding, and the same group whose threat to challenge Speaker Boehner ostensibly led him to step down. And all of a sudden, with those 40 votes lined up against McCarthy the math was radically different. In what looked like a last-ditch effort to shore up support, former Vice President Dick Cheney stepped in last night to endorse McCarthy. But apparently, Cheney`s word doesn`t mean what it used to. This morning, Kevin McCarthy arrived at a closed-door meeting of the House GOP Caucus for what was supposed to be a pro forma nomination vote, a kind of preamble to the actual speakership election on October 29th. And instead of delivering a last-minute pitch, McCarthy had an announcement to make. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. RYAN COSTELLO (R), PENNSYLVANIA: Kevin McCarthy went up to the microphone and said that he was not going -- he was withdrawing his name from consideration for speaker. And that he was not going to be running. And with that, he sat down. Speaker Boehner got up and said, based on what was just said, we`re going to move to postpone the election for speaker. He got up and banged the gavel and said conference dismissed. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: As the meeting came to an abrupt end and stunned Republicans started to file out, pandemonium, absolute pandemonium descended on Capitol Hill. Lawmakers and reporters alike trying to absorb what had just happened. The reaction from members was nearly unanimous. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shock. I think a lot of people were shocked. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was shock. There was total silence, that people absolutely could not believe what they were hearing. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His strongest supporters were stunned. Some of them crying. I don`t think they were notified ahead of time. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely stunned. Did not see that coming. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: "Washington Post" reporter Robert Costa tweeted, "Representative Peter King tells me members are crying in the cloak room, unable to handle the unrest and confusion. A banana republic," he says. According to one House Republican, some of his colleagues might literally have had no clue what was going on when McCarthy made his announcement. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COSTELLO: He was not speaking as closely into the microphone as he probably should have, so a lot of people didn`t even hear what he said. A lot of members just looked in the room and didn`t even realize what had happened until they heard from members sitting next to them that were paying a little closer attention. HAYES: Things were so chaotic on Capitol Hill it got to be a little too much for Alaska Congressman Don Young. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KING: Most people weren`t sure what he said. The sound system -- REP. DON YOUNG (R), ALASKA: Move out of the way. Let`s go. REPORTER: Stay with us. Stay with us, Ashley. KING: He said -- REPORTER: Congressman, we`re live on CNN. We don`t want to block everybody. If you could come over here. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: When someone asked Congressman Young who was replacing McCarthy according to a reporter for "The Hill," he shouted "I am." Not long after the shocking news broke today, McCarthy explained his decision to reporters. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MCCARTHY: You probably need a fresh face. I`ll stay on as majority leader. But the one thing I found in talking to everybody, if we`re going to unite and be strong, we need a new face to help do that. I don`t want making voting for speaker a tough one. I don`t want to go to the floor and win with 220 votes. I think the best thing for our party right now is that you have 247 votes on the floor. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Now, the question is with a debt vote looming and the House Republican caucus in complete disarray who will replace McCarthy as Boehner`s successor? McCarthy himself told "The National Review", "I personal want Paul Ryan." The former vice presidential candidate has made it very clear, he is not interested in a job, saying in a statement, "While I am grateful for the encouragement I received, I will not be a candidate." That is not likely to be the end of it, however. "The Washington Post" reports there`s already a campaign under way to change Ryan`s mind. With Boehner personally asking him to run for speaker over two long phone conversations today and telling Ryan he`s the only person who could unite the fractured House GOP. Joining me now, Congressman Michael Burgess, Republican from Texas, who`s a member of the House Tea Party Caucus. And, Congressman, your reaction today. Did you know what was coming when the announcement happened, and what did you think? REP. MICHAEL BURGESS (R), TEXAS: Well, no, I didn`t know it was happening. In fact, we had two meetings today, Chris. One at 8:00 in the morning, where all of the candidates for speaker had ample time to talk to the conference. The conference had time to question each candidate. Each candidate had a couple minutes to provide answers. I thought that was a pretty good and free flowing exchange of ideas. And we did hear a lot of ideas that were put forward. The following meeting then that convened at noontime Eastern Time in the ways and means committee room, it -- yes, it was hard to hear in there. There were several of us that were sitting in the little library area at the back waiting for the voting to start and then it was over as soon as it began. HAYES: What -- Kevin McCarthy said today that he doesn`t want to win with 220 votes. He`s talking about 247, which is the total number of the caucus. I mean, for people watching from the outside, your caucus respectfully really seems like an ungovernable mess and the job of speaker essentially impossible for whoever inherits it. Is there anyone who can get 247 votes? BURGESS: Hey, look, we`ve got a lot of energy, a lot of enthusiasm, and a lot of ideas on the Republican side. HAYES: Yes. So did the French revolutionaries. BURGESS: I will say this. I actually -- I`m -- I think leader McCarthy did a courageous thing today by taking his name out of the nomination. HAYES: Are you happy he`s gone? BURGESS: Happy is not the right word. Relieved might be a better word. HAYES: Why relieved? BURGESS: Well, here`s the thing. Two weeks ago tomorrow Speaker Boehner announced that he was in fact not going to continue as speaker past the end of this month. That, of course, set in motion a whole series of things that led us to today. But here`s the deal. There was a lot of concern on the conservative side, and I heard it a lot during the month of August, that there needs to be -- there needs to be new energy, there needs to be new enthusiasm, there needs to be a change in the leadership in the House, in a majority party in the House. And it`s not a sentiment with which I disagreed. And then you heard in your piece in the intro Leader McCarthy saying maybe it is time for a fresh face. I get that. And I think my constituents certainly have discussed with me how it`s not going to be perhaps seen as a victory that if we just move from the speaker to the next person in line, there really does need to be a shake-up, because we see what`s happening with -- on both sides, with the presidential primaries as they are beginning to develop and on the Republican side, you have fully 50 percent or more of the vote that ostensibly is going to people who`ve never held political office before. That`s a significant development. HAYES: Yes. BURGESS: And, of course, there`s Bernie Sanders, bless his heart, on your side with -- HAYES: That`s an interesting point, right? Because Bernie Sanders, whose principles and I think political views, you know, put him in a certain part of the Democratic caucus. As a wheeler-dealer he`s a legislator. I mean, the guy`s voted for, sure, a ton of things where he said I don`t love everything in this but we crafted this together and I think there`s a sense that the governing philosophy that brought this to a halt in your caucus is one that`s maximum confrontation, shut down the government, run through the debt ceiling, whatever it takes -- BURGESS: I couldn`t disagree more. HAYES: Well, you did shut down the government once. BURGESS: I didn`t. The president said -- or Harry Reid said he wouldn`t send any appropriations bills to the president. HAYES: Right. BURGESS: That`s certainly not the fault of anyone on the House side. I was on the rules committee -- HAYES: But you guys knew what you were voting for -- Congressman, come on, everyone understood what that vote was for -- BURGESS: We sent appropriations bill after appropriations bill to the Senate and they wouldn`t take them up. HAYES: Let me ask you this. There`s a very weird wrinkle in this race, the race for speaker. Walter Scott wrote this letter and he said, "I`m asking any candidate for the speaker of the house, majority leader, majority whip, withdraw himself from the leadership election. If there are any misdeeds he has committed since joining Congress that will embarrass himself, the Republican Congress and the House of Representatives if they become public," this has been interpreted as directed to Kevin McCarthy. There`s a lot of operating today which I`m not going to repeat here because unsubstantiated about possible personalities indiscretions of his. And what do you make of that? Was that a threat? Was that blackmail? Did that play a role in this? BURGESS: I don`t think so. I mean, the -- let he who is without guilt among you cast the first stone. No one in this House is perfect. I will tell you that from a direct -- HAYES: Congressman. BURGESS: -- from working with both sides. HAYES: I think we found something we can agree on. Having covered Congress I will agree with you no one in that Congress is perfect indeed. It`s been a pleasure to have you on. Come back again. BURGESS: Anytime. Thank you, Chris. HAYES: Joining me now Congressman Alan Grayson, Democrat from Florida. Well, Congressman, what are your thoughts on this? REP. ALAN GRAYSON (D), FLORIDA : Well, I think we taught them a lesson. I think that -- I filed an ethics complaint against McCarthy yesterday and today, he drops out of the race three weeks before the actual vote. He couldn`t stand the heat. And we taught them a lesson which will last. No matter who is the is next speaker, they`ll understand they can`t abuse power -- HAYES: Congressman, you do not honestly believe that your ethics complaint is what led Kevin McCarthy today to step down. GRAYSON: Well, McCarthy said that. He was asked at his news conference whether the controversy over the Benghazi committee contributed to it. And you actually quoted him earlier in the broadcast -- you said -- HAYES: It wasn`t helpful. GRAYSON: Yes, that`s right. He said it sure wasn`t helpful. And everybody knew what that meant. HAYES: You`ve served in two different congresses. And you`ve sort of watched an evolution of the house Republican Congress. They`re gearing up. They want a fight. They want a shutdown fight over Planned Parenthood. They`re very clear about that. Is there any way to make this thing function? I mean, the problem it seems to me is the problems are structural. There`s a certain part of the caucus that is committed to a kind of kamikaze model of legislating that another part of the caucus thinks is massively destructive. And I don`t -- do you see a way for that to be bridged? GRAYSON: Absolutely. You simply eliminate the Hastert Rule. There`s 218 votes for all sorts of good things including immigration reform. HAYES: Yes. GRAYSON: And if we simply set aside this demented idea that you could have a bare majority of a bare majority, basically a quarter of the institution, that can block everyone else from doing what they want, if we set aside that single idea, then the institution becomes fully functional again. That`s called the regular order, and that`s the way it should be. HAYES: That leads to the natural follow-up question, which is this, and I`ve seen this idea floated. Generally, each party votes for their own representative for speaker. But there`s nothing that requires that. And in fact in state legislatures we have seen Democrats in the minority vote for a Republican for speaker or leader of a House so that they have a say over who controls that house essentially and have a kind of moderating influence on that. Can you imagine Democrats doing something similar here? GRAYSON: Sure. That`s been the rule in the New York Senate for the past five years. It`s also been the way things worked in the Texas Senate for several years now. It certainly is possible. Right now, you have 257 votes for yourself on the Republican caucus. Right now, each one of those will get one vote. That will change over time. And it might be some critical mass of Republicans and some critical mass of Democrats who simply want the institution to function again and for good government. HAYES: So, this is key. I want people to understand this. You are saying you`re open to the idea as a member of the House, Democratic member of the House, you would be open to the idea of voting for someone who`s Republican as speaker if that meant you could put together a governing majority that could do things for instance like discard the so-called Hastert Rule? GRAYSON: Well, listen, a Republican Charlie Dent said that on national TV today. And I think my leadership is open to that. I think what we all want is we want good government and we do not want the crazies to block that anymore in the future. HAYES: Do -- how long do you see this playing out, and are you worried about the fact we have a debt ceiling coming up -- a debt ceiling deadline, although those tend to be a little soft coming up? GRAYSON: We now have a temporary artificial equilibrium. Right now, temporarily, we have Boehner in charge and we have McCarthy in charge. But obviously, that`s not going to last very long. I think that the current leadership, such as it is, will get us past these difficulties that are imminent but that doesn`t tell you what`s going to happen in the future. My guess is that Jim McDermott is going to be the next speaker of the house. He`s a psychiatrist. He ran a large psychiatric ward. And that`s the skill set you need to run the House. HAYES: All right. Always a pleasure, Congressman Alan Grayson. Thank you very much. GRAYSON: Thank you. HAYES: Coming up, as the GOP scrambles to find the next speaker, we thought we`d lend them a hand and look at some possible contenders. Plus, Donald Trump pulls a woman on stage during a campaign stop today and what happens next is really something very special. We`ll bring you that. And later presidential candidate Martin O`Malley joins me live as he gears up for the first Democratic debate. Those stories and more, ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Last night, FOX News owner Rupert Murdoch fired up the old Twitter machine and unleashed this gem. "Ben and Candy Carson terrific. What about a real black president who can properly address the racial divide and much else?" A real black president. You know, not like the person we have in office now. Murdoch came under a hail of criticism for that tweet and this morning he said he was sorry, tweeting, "Apologies. No offense meant. Personally find both men charming." Ben Carson the subject of that first tweet sat down for an interview today with CNN. He was asked about Murdoch`s comment. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) WOLF BLITZER, CNN: You believe the president is a real black president, though, right? BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I wouldn`t even get into such a conversation. BLITZER: It`s a simple question. Is President Obama a real black president? CARSON: Well, he`s the president, and he`s black. BLITZER: So he`s a real black president. CARSON: If -- again, we`re dealing with semantics. As you know, I`m the last person who wants to play around with semantics and political correctness. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Carson later refused to definitively say he believes President Obama`s a Christian. And that is just the type of the iceberg. Coming up, what Ben Carson did when he faced a gunman, for real this time, not in his imagination. And his thoughts on how gun control helped cause the Holocaust. That`s ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ANNOUNCER: There is a better way. And the new team is ready to bring America back -- Eric Cantor, Kevin McCarthy, Paul Ryan, joined by common sense conservative candidates from across the country. Young Guns, a new generation of conservative leaders. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: It was all there right in front of them. That swelling music. Those were the days. Now even though Republicans are enjoying the largest majority their party has held since before the Great Depression, the math still works against them. They need 218 votes to elect a new speaker and while Republicans have 247 members in the House, about 40 of those members are in open revolt. It is a singularly dramatic situation which was sharply criticized today by Republican from Pennsylvania, Congressman Charlie Dent. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. CHARLIE DENT (R), PENNSYLVANIA: The challenge for our conference is quite simple, that we need to assemble bipartisan coalitions to pass any important legislation around here. We may have to assemble a bipartisan coalition to elect the next speaker of the House of Representatives. I said that whoever`s going to be the next speaker should not appease this group of rejectionists, you know, who have no interest in governing. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Today, Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi basically wished Republicans well. "It`s a great job. It`s great opportunity. And I`m sure they`ll find somebody who is capable of accepting the honor," Pelosi told reporters in the Capitol. When Pelosi`s office was asked if Democrats might cut a deal with the GOP to choose the next speaker, Pelosi deflected saying, "It`s up to House Republicans to choose the next speaker." Joining me now, former Congressman Anthony Weiner and Sam Stein, political editor and White House correspondent for "The Huffington Post". I`ve got to start with this. Newt Gingrich just tweeting out, "If 218 Republicans vote to want me as speaker, I would come back and serve." Which I just love as that is the end game. What do you think, Sam? Newt Gingrich for speaker? SAM STEIN, HUFFINGTON POST: You know, reluctantly, he will serve, Chris. He doesn`t want the power, but if asked he will take it. And I`m sure all those House Republicans who hate establishment Republicans would gladly have Newt Gingrich back. HAYES: Here`s the thing, right? Everybody today has been saying there`s nothing in the Constitution anywhere that says the House speaker has to be serving in the House. So, everybody has fun with that, maybe the pope will get elected speaker. But part of it is that there`s -- it doesn`t seem like there`s anyone except for Paul Ryan, right? And if you`re Paul Ryan right now, everyone is telling you you have to say yes. Like, what do you do if you`re Paul Ryan? ANTHONY WEINER (D), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: Well, I`m going to tweet out that I`m available too to come back. Apparently, I saw Darrell Issa threw his name in. I`m clearly more qualified than Darrell Issa. Look, I mean, here`s -- the problem is that anyone who looks at the basic fundamentals here knows the job. First of all, it`s an important job. Even if you`re not a Republican, it`s an important job. HAYES: Yes, it`s literally the second most powerful -- WEINER: Right, you`ve got a couple of tough things to counter any circumstance, negotiating with the president isn`t easy, dealing with your own members even in the best of circumstances is difficult. You know, the irony here is that having big majorities is actually better than having a small majority because you don`t have the sense that you have 40 guys who think they can walk off the reservation and they`re in charge. The important thing to keep in mind here, though, is that when our government was created it was a lot of concern, we all learned this in civic class, about rushing headlong into -- HAYES: Totally, right, yes. WEINTER: There was very little discussion about, well, what if you have a handful of people who want nothing to happen? And that handful isn`t that small. Forty members is a lot. So, in answer to your question about Paul Ryan, he`s smart you have no realize that a new person there doesn`t change that dynamic one bit. I don`t care how respected you are. HAYES: Which is the fundamental problem. Which is why Paul Ryan doesn`t want to do it, because the guy wants to have a long political career. He has aspirations I think, probably, for higher office and he understands it`s a dead end. But, Sam, the question, I mean, Lynn Westmoreland from Georgia has said he`s going to run. I think Darrell Issa might throw his -- do you think it`s possible if they can`t get Paul Ryan to do it you end up with basically a version of the California recall in the House Republican caucus where a whole bunch of people are just like, I don`t know, maybe I can be the next speaker of the House of the United States of America? STEIN: I suppose. But, you know, keep in mind, again, as former congressman said, this is a small minority of the caucus. If the more moderates and traditional Republicans in this caucus had any strategic vision they could actually influence this thing in a way that works to their benefit. It`s just that we haven`t seen that strategic vision yet. And, you know, we`re laughing about it and all that stuff. But this is like deeply serious stuff. I mean, this is the third in line for the presidency. We have a debt ceiling crisis that is imminent. And the speaker controls the House floor. I mean, these aren`t small stakes. So, to have some back bencher from California no one`s ever heard of to be third in line for the presidency is like a little kind of crazy to be honest with you. HAYES: Yes, and I wonder -- I`ve always wondered this about leadership elections, right? Because it always seems to me like a fascinating thing to think about. Politicians politicking to other politicians, right? What are those races like? What are those conversations like? And how are you -- how does someone win an election like that? WEINER: First of all, it`s entirely different on the Democratic side because at the very foundation of liberals and progressives and Democrats is a fidelity to governance, to get things done. HAYES: Right, right, right. So, you sort of want to have that -- WEINER: Right, so you can make an appeal to someone you don`t agree with politically on the political side of the Democratic aisle and say, listen, we have to get stuff done, having a strong leader, here`s why, I can put it together. Here`s why we`ll ultimately benefit from it. And look, I saw that. The importance of having a strong leader during the health care debate, when we weren`t going as far as I thought we should but I knew it was important to get something done. HAYES: Right. WEINER: The problem the Republicans fundamentally have in this leadership thing is they have a bunch of people, 40 or so, let`s choose that number. It might be more, it might be less. But 40 who are saying to the other guys, vote for my team so we can get nothing done. So, for people like -- HAYES: So, we can have like cataclysmic confrontations, not just nothing done. WEINER: One possible outcome is the Charlie Dents in the world say all right, wise guy, go ahead. You and your 40 guys show us what you`re going to do. And finally let them crash and burn completely. But Sam`s right. The stakes here, this is about governing the country. And let me -- one other point. Anyone who thinks all these years has been saying, or maybe if Obama was nicer to these guys it would work out better, this finally lays bare the problem we have with our government, is that these guys are the straw that`s stirring the drink in the Republican Party. HAYES: Sam, do you -- we haven`t had -- I mean, 1860 I think was the last time there was a long period of indeterminate House speaker two months. I mean, I just don`t know where this goes next. STEIN: I don`t think anyone actually does. I mean, 1998, obviously, with Bob Livingston, this is the nearest parallel to this. But things are different now, and I think really the root call of all this is honestly redistricting. These people do not have to answer to moderate voters. They have to answer to the base. And the base hates leadership. They don`t expect -- they don`t want their representative to go along with leadership. And I thought Eric Cantor in his "New York Times" op-ed a couple weeks ago really actually articulated it very well where he said, "At some point, people became unsatisfied with just stopping Obama`s agenda and wanted us to enact our own without knowing that we need the presidency to do it." HAYES: Right, that`s right. STEIN: There is no understanding about how the system of governance works. And until that`s resolved who knows where this ends up? HAYES: And we should also note, the total amount of votes won by these 40, 45, 50 members is a very small fraction of the total votes cast in this country. This is not majority rule by any stretch of the imagination. WEINER: Well, and also not the governing policy stuff. You look at the stuff these guys believe. They have a relatively tiny fraction. But I`ll tell you, one of the big tells was in that second debate where just about everybody presidential candidate was making a point of beating the bejesus out of the Republicans in Congress. That was a tell to me that this thing has now reached a tipping point. HAYES: Yes. Anthony Weiner and Sam Stein, thank you, gentlemen, both. STEIN: Thanks, Chris. HAYES: All right. The Democratic debate five days away and there`s probably no one as eager to get on that stage as Martin O`Malley. He`ll join me live, ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: With all the other news, Donald Trump`s campaign events aren`t getting quite the coverage they used to. But do not worry, we watched Trump`s Las Vegas campaign event this afternoon so you didn`t have to. And before we get to the marathon rally, a quick note: the latest polling finds that 72 percent of Hispanics have a negative view of Donald Trump, probably due to his incredibly incendiary and offensive rhetoric on immigration. That does, however, leave 28 percent of Hispanics who don`t necessarily disapprove of Trump and some who like him, even really like him. (BEGIN VIDEO CILP) DONALD TRUMP, 2016 REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I`m on more covers than any supermodel in history. Can you believe it? No, can you believe it? I mean, every magazine: People -- by the way, People magazine -- I love -- I didn`t love the picture. I don`t know. they did something with my nose. They played around. It`s true. I don`t understand. I loved People magazine. I love the people at People magazine. The story was nice. But I didn`t like what they did. They screwed around -- I said just leave me alone. There it is. come here. Let me have that. Where are you from? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m from Colombia. TRUMP: Colombia. And is this a setup? Did I ever meet you before? Huh? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m Hispanic and I vote for Mr. Trump. We vote for Mr. Trump! Yes! Mr. Trump! We love you! We love you! On the way to the White House. TRUMP: I swear to you, I think she`s totally beautiful and great. I never met her before. I swear. I just -- this all started with a People - - People magazine. Great. That`s so great. Mever met her before. She`s amazing. She is amazing. Thank you, hon. Appreciate it. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: We are just five days from the first Democratic presidential debate, a chance for each candidate to explain why they are the best choice, the future of their party. And perhaps the candidate most eager to get things started is former Maryland Governor Martin O`Malley. O`Malley has been in a rather contentious conflict with the Democratic National Committee about the need for more debates. Right now there are six debates planned, four of which will be held before the Iowa caucuses in February. And by restricting the number of debates, scheduling them mainly on weekends and one in the middle of the holiday shopping season, O`Malley has accused party leaders of engaging in a "rigged process" that benefits Hillary Clinton. Now with virtually invisible poll numbers expect Martin O`Malley to use Tuesday`s debate to seize the opportunity to seize the opportunity, to introduce himself to a large constituency of national primary Democratic voters. Joining me now is the former Maryland Governor Martin O`Malley. Governor, let me start with what happened on Capitol Hill today, because it strikes me that if there is a Democratic president the odds are that Democratic president is going to inherit a congress they`re going to have to work with which is functionally in disarray and almost certainly controlled by this kind of Republican faction. What good are any policy proposals you or any of your rivals put forward if that`s what you`re going to have on day one? MARTIN O`MALLEY, FRM. GOVERNOR OF MARYLAND: Chris, you know what, the good news about our republic is that all -- every congress is temporary. We have the opportunity to vote for a new congress every two years. And in this national election if we`re tired of the dysfunction, if we`re tired of having 40 hardcore very, very right-wing unrepresentative representatives gridlock our congress we can make that change. But I think it also underscores something else very important for the Democratic Party and for our country. We need to elect someone not only that can win in the general election, but someone who can govern afterwards that knows how, given the executive experience that I have had, that knows how to govern and form new coalitions and bring people together in a consensus to accomplish important, though oftentimes difficult things. And that`s what I`ve learned to do in 15 years as an executive. You have to call the legislature all the time. You have to realize that however dug in people might be in their positions, there`s always the opportunity to talk to one another as human beings and to bring people together for the national good. HAYES: You know, you`re someone who I think probably has, if I`m tallying this quickly in my head, has more executive experience than anyone else in the Democratic field. O`MALLEY: That`s right. HAYES: You were a mayor and a governor. And I think if you asked me where would Martin O`Malley be in this race five or six months ago I think I would have predicted that your poll numbers would be higher than they are, frankly. You know, you have a very credible resume as a national candidate for national executive office. What is your understanding of the contours of the race and your campaign and how hard it has been to get space between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders? O`MALLEY: I believe that the people of our country are looking for a new leader, Chris. And in the case of the run-up to these Democratic debates we`ve had a rather arrested and delayed development in our own debates in our own party. But all of that is about to change on October 13. I think both parties people gravitated to the candidates that most clearly express our displeasure with our establishment leaders in both party. But at the end of the day people don`t vote for angry, people vote for president. And our country faces serious challenges. And if we`re going to make wages go up rather than down, if we`re going to give our kids more opportunities rather than less, we need to elect a new president who can govern, who can get things done. So I`m looking forward to these debates. And one thing that I would add to your observation is that four or five months ago no one inside the beltway or in New York would have predicted that the inevitable front-runner would have been trailing any challenger at this point in both Iowa and New Hampshire. So that tells me this race is wide open and people are looking for a new leader. And I have the ability, the executive track record of not only having progressive goals and values but getting progressive things done: comprehensive gun safety legislation, raising the minimum wage, passing a living wage. Look, I believe that it`s about actions and not words and that`s what people in our country are looking for. HAYES: Let me ask you just as something -- you just said something people ultimately don`t vote for angry. Do you mean that other candidates that you`re in the race with are too angry? Is it directed at someone? O`MALLEY: No, Chris. It is directed at -- my campaign is directed at the future. And the future is what we make of it. We are Americans. We make our own future. And we do it by the actions we take in every generation to include more people more fully in the economic, social, and political life of our country. That`s what I did as mayor. That`s what I`ve done as governor. And I believe that`s the sort of new leadership that people are looking for. We can`t be this dissatisfied with our gridlock national politics and an economy where we`re working harder and not getting ahead and think that a resort to old names is going to move us forward. America`s looking for a new leader, and the Democratic Party has a responsibility to answer these Republican debates and put forward the new ideas that will actually move our country forward. And that`s what I intend to do in this upcoming debate. HAYES: What do you say as the main areas, what are you expecting? As far as I can tell some of the main places we`ve seen some points of policy disagreement among Democratic candidates has been on gun safety legislation and the possible scope and shape that should take. There was up until yesterday, appeared to be some disagreement on the Trans-Pacific Partnership, although now Hillary Clinton says she opposes that so I think that`s essentially as far as I can tell unanimous among the people who have weighed in. What are you anticipating as the big issues where there`s going to be differentiation? O`MALLEY: I think that the biggest issue is this: there`s a big difference between leadership and following polls. I`m not very good at following polls. But I have learned how to be very good at being an effective leader. Unlike a weather vane that bows in the wind, I know where I stand. And most importantly, I know what the most important principles are that unite us as a people. And that`s how I`ve been able to get things done and bring people together for our common good. So I really think that the issue in this race is which of our candidates actually has the track record and the ability to pull us together as a people, get things done again as a country, and move us forward? You don`t do -- you don`t forge a new consensus by following polls. I was against the Trans-Pacific Partnership eight months ago. I`ve been very clear about what we need to do to rein in recklessness on Wall Street. And furthermore, I actually have the independence to get it done. So I`m looking forward to this debate. Every campaign should be about the future... HAYES: Thank you, governor. O`MALLEY: Thank you. HAYES: Martin O`Malley, thank you very much for joining us. Still ahead, Ben Carson continues to add to his list of questionable gun control comments, this time even invoking the holocaust. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Last week at the very last possible minute, Oklahoma governor Mary Fallin stayed a man`s execution after prison officials discovered they had the wrong drug with which to kill him. Today comes word that prison officials used that same wrong drug to execute another man earlier this year. The autopsy report of convicted murderer Charles Warner released by state medical examiner today shows that officials used potassium acetate as one of three drugs to execute Warner back in January and not potassium chloride, as Oklahoma`s execution protocol calls for. Now, that drug is the same mix-up that happened just last week when Oklahoma`s governor had to issue that last-minute stay of execution for inmate Richard Glossip after state officials discovered the prison had received a shipment of potassium acetate and not potassium chloride. Today Governor Fallin said in a statement that during the discussion of Glossip`s execution delay, quote, "it became apparent the Department of Corrections may have used potassium acetate in the execution of Charles Warner in January of this year. I was not aware, nor was anyone in my office aware of that possibility until the day of Richard Glossip`s scheduled execution." Charles Warner was the first person to be executed in the state of Oklahoma following the botched execution of another man, Clayton Lockett, in April 2014. It took over 40 minutes for Lockett to die, and he could be seen writhing and moaning on the gurney. Charles Warner was to be executed that same night, but his execution was delayed until January of this year. His final words noted by witnesses. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEAN MURPHY, WITNESED CHARLES WARNER EXECUTION: The execution began at 7:10. Mr. Warner said, "my body is on fire." At this point his microphone was turned off. He said, "no one should go through this." (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Today, Oklahoma`s attorney general, who had already launched an investigation into the drug mix-up at the postponed Glossip execution, said that investigation will now also include any previous drug mistakes made by the state and not disclosed. There is a lot of blame to go around here, and it goes all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. A slim majority of which found Oklahoma`s execution protocol constitutional just this past June. What is undeniably clear, whatever your position on the death penalty, is that what is happening in Oklahoma right now is outrageous and unacceptable, and there must be accountability for every single person who has played a role in this entire debacle. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: The GOP presidential race has, for now, settled into a fairly stable equilibrium. You`ve got front-runner Donald Trump with about 23 percent support. Right behind him at 17 percent is your unquestionable number two Ben Carson, seven points ahead of his nearest competitors. Now, Carson has spent much of the last 48 hours answering for comments he made on Tuesday when he was asked in the wake of the Oregon massacre what he would do if he was confronted by a mass shooter. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BEN CARSON, 2016 REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Not only would I probably not cooperate with him, I would -- I would not just stand there and let him shoot me. I would say hey, guys, everybody attack him. He may shoot me, but he can`t get us all. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Carson has repeatedly stood by those comments despite the implication that those murdered in Oregon were somehow complicit in their own killing. Appearing on CNN today, Carson suggested he was mystified that anyone had taken offense. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CARSON: Knowing that you were next to be killed and that they were going to continue down the line killing people, I would much rather go down fighting. And if all of us attacked the shooter, the chances are very strong that not all of us would be killed. To me that doesn`t seem like a very controversial thing. But when you take it out of context and you try to make it look like I`m criticizing the victims that`s when it becomes controversial. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Now, Ben Carson there is putting himself in a hypothetical situation, which raises the question what if he did have to face down a bad guy with a gun in the real world? What would Ben Carson do? And it turns out we have an answer. (BEGIN VIDOE CLIP) CARSON: I`ve had a gun held on me when I was in a Popeye`s organization. A guy comes in, puts a gun in my ribs. And I -- I just said, "I believe that you want the guy behind the counter." He thought I was... UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In that calm way? OK. CARSON: He said, Oh, OK. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Carson said today that his real world experience in a Baltimore Popeye`s doesn`t contradict his hypothetical bravery. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CARSON: That is a completely different situation. This is somebody who comes into a joint to rob it, not somebody who`s sequentially killing people. WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: But you didn`t know he was going to rob the joint. He potentially could have killed you. CARSON: I did know that. And the fact of the matter is maybe this is a level of sophistication that people learn from living on the streets. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: Carson was also asked in that interview about his claim that gun control contributed to the holocaust. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BLITZER: If there had been no gun control laws in Europe at that time, would 6 million Jews have been slaughtered? CARSON: I think the likelihood of Hitler being able to accomplish his goals would have been greatly diminished if the people had been armed. (END VIDEO CLIP) HAYES: For several months, Donald Trump has been going around the country saying outrageous bombastic things prompting people to scratch their heads and wonder how does this guy say these things and still lead the pack? And yet Ben Carson has been going around and in the most polite, softest way he`s been reliably and consistently saying even more outrageous things than Donald Trump and he is in second place. When we come back, understanding the Ben Carson phenomenon and just why he has so much support. That`s next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HAYES: Joining me now to talk about the Ben Carson phenomenon, Betsy Woodruff. She`s a political reporter at The Daily Beast. She`s been doing reporting on the Republican field, the Republican base. Can you talk a little bit about the kind of audience that Ben Carson has cultivated over the last three or four years even before he got into the race to run for president? BETSY WOODRUFF, THE DAILY BEAST: Yeah. Well, Ben Carson`s audience is extraordinarily loyal and extraordinarily devoted. One thing that I`ve heard from fund-raisers I talked to is that pretty much any email blast that has Ben Carson`s picture on it or is purported to be from him automatically does better than other outreach efforts: conservative, older, Christian, Republicans love Ben Carson. His demeanor is really distinct. He comes off as very soft-spoken, very humble, kind of an iron fist in a velvet glove type situation. He says these things that are extraordinarily perplexing but in a way that isn`t inflammatory, kind of the anti-Trump. HAYES: Yes, but that`s what I find so confounding. He is so soft- spoken. He is -- his disposition is so different than what you would expect from a politician, and yet he is saying things -- and I think it`s in some ways starting to catch up to him -- that are really inflammatory. I thought just to editorialize for a moment here, I thought the thing he said about the Oregon massacre was really in terrible taste and also just sort of preposterous. Like to use the word "cooperate" in the hours after these people have been savagely murdered just seemed absurd. And yet there doesn`t seem to be the same kind of like accountability for that so far. WOODRUFF: It`s just weird. And an interesting thing to keep in mind looking at these just genuinely honestly confusing things he`s said about guns is that in the past Carson`s actually gotten a lot of flak from second amendment hard- liners because of his stances. He told Glenn Beck I believe in 2014 that he thought there might need to be tighter gun regulations in large cities, that there might be a place for having gun regulation that`s are a little more strict in the case of mentally ill people, and got a ton of pushback for that. Dana Loesch (ph), who`s one of the most prominent pro second amendment conservative media personalities, who just cut an ad for the NRA, has a post up on her site saying "I can`t support Ben Carson for president because he`s soft on the second amendment." So it`s just curious. HAYES: OK, but this perfectly -- this is my theory of watching this develop, is that this is someone who actually doesn`t -- he`s playing this role of kind of Tea Party hero and because it`s a role he`s playing seems to kind of over or misstep a lot. Part of what`s strange about this also is here you have this guy who had this whole career, he was unquestionably a brilliant pediatric neurosurgeon. He`s had an amazing career. He actually, you know, couldn`t -- had to know what he was doing when he had people on the operating table. And then you take him out of that domain, he`s getting asked about the debt limit the other day and he very clearly has no idea about the basic mechanics of how it works. WOODRUFF: Of course. And most Americans don`t have any idea about the basic mechanics... HAYES: Most Americans aren`t polling at 17 percent in the GOP primary. WOODRUFF: Let`s be real. No, totally. Of course. And I think part of his appeal is that he`s not talking down to these Republican voters. He is in terms of policy chops on the same level as a lot of these guys. He`s not trying to condescend or trying to make his thinking more simple when he discusses these policy issues. And that makes him a very effective communicator. But of course it also makes it hard for him to take clear policy stances or perhaps make incisive criticisms of what`s going on in Washington right now. HAYES: There was also something you mentioned about sort of evangelicals supporting him and I think this is something that`s been sort of missed by folks who didn`t follow his speaking career. He has a very profound Christian faith that he talks about that is very central to his appeal. WOODRUFF: Yes. Absolutely. And after the Oregon massacre one of the first things he did was put a post on Facebook saying "I am a Christian" with a picture of a fish, and that post did incredibly well, just a phenomenal social media impact. And conservative Christians really relate to that. They get it. They like that he`s open about his faith. They like that he talks about it, that it seems very sincere, very unvarnished. And I think people -- you can`t understate -- or you can`t overstate the significance of that. HAYES: All right, Betsy Woodruff, thanks a lot. WOODRUFF: Sure thing. HAYES: This whole campaign is a crash course in the non- transferability of certain kinds of expertise. And tomorrow be sure to tune in to Andrea Mitchell reports at noon when Ben Carson himself will be her guest. That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts right now. THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END