All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 09/17/15

Charlie Pierce, Ben Domenech, Michelle Goldberg, Keith Ellison, Larry Boyd


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN –

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think she`s got a beautiful


TRUMP: I never attacked him on his look, and believe me, there`s plenty of
subject matter right there.

HAYES: Debate number two is in the books, and in between the insults there
were untruths.

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: As it relates to my brother, there`s
one thing I know for sure, he kept us safe.

HAYES: Tonight, debunking the top three falsehoods from the Reagan

Then, is it finally time to sell high on Donald Trump?

PAUL: I think America is about done with him.

HAYES: Plus, the Ahmed Mohamed story keeps getting bigger.

AHMED MOHAMED, STUDENT: I didn`t think I was going to get any support
because I`m a Muslim boy.

HAYES: Tonight, my interview with the Irving police chief who is standing
by the arrest.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s a very suspicious device.

HAYES: Of course, there is backlash to the backlash.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does anyone think it did not look like a dangerous
weapon out of a “Die Hard” movie?

HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

We`re going to get to the fall out from the second Republican debate very
soon. But, tonight, just moments ago, a really surreal and disturbing
event just took place. Iconic, I think, event in this campaign so far.

The first questioner in a town hall meeting for Donald Trump in Rochester,
New Hampshire, made some outrageous statements that appear to going un-
rebutted by Donald Trump. Questions and comments not only included the now
year`s long paranoia about President Barack Obama being a Muslim. Question
or comments also included to be what seemed to be a call for ethnic


TRUMP: OK. This man, I like this guy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m from White Plains. Amen. OK?

We have a problem in this country. It`s called Muslims. We know our
current president is one.

You know he is not even American.

TRUMP: We need –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Birth certificate, man.

But anyway, we have training camps growing where they want to kill us.
That`s my question. When can we get rid of them?

TRUMP: We`re going to be looking at different things. And, you know, a
lot of people are saying that and a lot of people are saying that bad
things are happening out there. We`re going to be looking at that and
plenty of other things.


HAYES: Just to be clear, when can we get rid of them, that`s the question?
Now, charitably, I guess, when can we get rid of the fictional Muslims in
training camps or maybe all Muslims?

And the answer from the frontrunner of the Republican Party, Donald Trump,
who is now polled in more than a dozen polls consecutively on top was,
“We`ll be looking at a lot of different things.”

Now, the nonsense about Muslim training camps came up a few questions


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The FBI knows all about that.

TRUMP: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: America has also guns pointed at ordinary citizens
here. One of them –

TRUMP: Don`t get nervous. You`re on about seven television networks!
Don`t get nervous. Don`t choke!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One is the Bureau Land Management –

TRUMP: Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: – and the agriculture. They`re going into different
ranches, shutting them.

TRUMP: Right, that`s right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Call them regulation, but they seem to be pointing a
gun to make sure they get their fees. This is our own government putting
us at siege. How can we get in there and stop them?

TRUMP: So many things are going to change. You know, these are
regulations but so many things. That`s one.

You know, one of the things being in real estate we have army bases, navy
bases, so many are for sale and so many have been sold over the last short
period of time. You say, how many can we sell? I see it all the time.
They come across my desk. So many. Things are going to change.


HAYES: All right. Joining me now, NBC News correspondent Hallie Jackson.

Hallie, you were in that town hall. I got to say, I watched that, it
really seemed like a chaotic atmosphere and it seemed that Donald Trump got
out of there quickly. It seemed like it was – I don`t to be exaggerating,
but it felt like the crowd was getting more and more riled up the longer it

HALLIE JACKSON, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, this was intended to be a
rally, right, Chris? This was something where Donald Trump wanted to come
out after the debate and fire up the supporters. So they were fired up.

It was certainly ruckus, as often Trump events are. This one is different
that he took questions from the members of the audience, something that we
do not see him do. He also did not hold a media availability, anything
with the press, which is a little bit different. He`s usually somebody who
comes in, talks to the press, and goes and does his events.

So, I – you know, the first question you ran a minute ago, it was very
interesting. People really sort of stopped and listened and listened to
what Donald Trump had to say. It harkens back a little bit to the moment
in 2008 where John McCain, you remember, running for president, corrected
somebody who called President Obama a Muslim or an Arab. He said, no, no,
that`s not correct.

We didn`t see that from Donald Trump this time. There was a heckler in the
crowd behind Trump at one point. And the crowd that booed down the heckler
and Trump sort of brushed it off. He got out quickly.

One of the things that we`ve seen during these events though is the kind of
mob scene surrounding Donald Trump as he goes at these events. His
motorcade or his caravan of cars pulled off. All the way from the second
he stepped off from the podium to the car. He was surrounded by people.
It was a crush of body guards, staffers, folks wanting autographs. People
who wanted him to sign their book, to sign their “Rolling Stone”, for
example. So, it`s an atmosphere unlike many you see in politics.

HAYES: All right. Hallie Jackson, thank you so much for joining us and
for being there.

Joining me now, Charlie Pierce, writer at large for “Esquire”, Ben
Domenech, publisher of Federalist and host of the Federalist radio hour.

Ben, let me start with you. OK. So, you know, people show up to events
and I`m not – you know, you can`t hold the candidates` views. But that
guy said the president is a Muslim. He`s not from this country. The
Muslims are trying to kill us and said when can we get rid of them?

I mean, you know, that`s about a explicit of a call for something like
ethic cleansing as I`ve heard campaign event for president in a long time.
And Donald Trump just says we`re looking at a lot of things. That strikes
me as off the table. That`s off the table. That`s not – I mean, I think
you`re laughing because what else can you do in the face of that? But –

BEN DOMENECH, FEDERALIST: It`s mostly this, Chris, it`s rare you have an
opportunity to have a single event vindicate everything you think about
what is kind of underneath the excitement about Donald Trump, but I think
that`s what this was. It`s an indication that as much as we might like to
say that the support for Donald Trump comes from people who are – who have
an ideological agenda when it comes to one issue or another.

I think the truth is it`s a lot of disaffected Americans who are not
particularly political. What we`ve seen in polls is that his support is
largest among people who don`t even vote in Republican primaries or don`t
even vote generally. And I think that that`s what you really saw here,
which was kind of an Internet comment come to life. And Trump himself, I
think, realized this. It`s one of the reasons he got out of there fast.

HAYES: Yes, Charlie, Trump usually takes questions for a long time. But
you could sort of see – I could kind of see on his face him needing his
fans and I don`t know if it was a dawning awareness of what that means, but
it felt like he made for the exits pretty quickly.

CHARLIE PIERCE, ESQUIRE: Yes, I have to admit, but I didn`t even factor in
as the Trump phenomena has gone along this summer, I didn`t factor in the
possibility that, you know, the lingering birtherism might be one of the
fundamental dynamics behind it. I`m going to have to recalibrate my own
thinking based on tonight.

Frankly, it just never occurred to me. I was one of those people – you
know, as Ben was talking about who thought it was just people who want
someone outside of politics. But, I mean, I thought the birtherism had
been wrung out of the – you know, public discourse when the president
embarrassed him in front of all of official Washington a few years ago. I
was wrong.

HAYES: Ben, your – the birtherism being wrung out, I think it went sort
of underground. It was a reminder in the moment when the guy – let me
play this again. I want to play it one more time. Take a look.


TRUMP: OK. This man, I like this guy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m from White Plains. Amen. OK?

We have a problem in this country. It`s called Muslims. We know our
current president is one.

You know he is not even American.

TRUMP: We need –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Birth certificate, man.


UNIDENTIFEID MALE: But anyway, we have training camps growing where they
want to kill us. That`s my question. When can we get rid of them?

TRUMP: We`re going to be looking at different things. And, you know, a
lot of people are saying that and a lot of people are saying that bad
things are happening out there. We`re going to be looking at that and
plenty of other things.


HAYES: And, Ben, he did rise to prominence the Obama era as a birther.
And this was a reminder of where those roots are.

DOMENECH: You know, the funny thing about Trump is that he – you know,
there are at lot of people around him who have worked with him and maintain
he`s not a racist. That he`s not anti-Semitic. He`s not someone who puts
the issues sort of forward and yet there seems to be a lot of excitement
and support for him that comes from a faction of the American population
that does have these kind of race based ethnic based priorities.

I`m not sure that Trump himself even understands the kind of phenomena that
he`s created in terms of this conversation, and the population of people
who are excited by his presence in the race, I think the real problem sort
of is, how do you deal with that, how do you sympathize that? How do you
deal with that that doesn`t result in some kind of violence or urging on,
the things you`re talking about here today the deportation of people
because of their religious believes or you suggested ethnic cleansing. I`m
not sure that`s even – I don`t want to get into that guy`s head, let me
just put it that.

HAYES: Let me just say this, Charlie, I mean, you know, if someone gets up
at a campaign event tomorrow and says to a campaign we`ve got a problem in
this country to a candidate. We have a problem in this country with the
Jews. That candidate responds by saying we`re going to be looking at a lot
of things, that candidate is done. That is over.

PIERCE: I was going to say one of the things –

DOMENECH: I should hope so. I should hope so.

PIERCE: One of the things you`re going to be looking at is the want ads.

HAYES: Exactly, and rightfully so. Just to be clear about what was just
exchanged – what we saw. I mean, in some ways, you know, replace any
group you want in there. But I cannot imagine that this is not – I mean,
people have been predicting the death blow but what do you think, Charlie?

PIERCE: Well, I mean, what was Jefferson`s wonderful image about slavery?
It was like holding a wolf by the ears. I think Donald Trump realized all
of a sudden that he`s holding a wolf by the ears and he can`t let go.

And if I can do a little cross presidential referencing. It`s LBJ to say
it`s raining on and you`re on a highway in Texas. You can`t run, you can`t
hide, you can`t make it stop. He`s lost control of whatever it is he

HAYES: That`s exactly, lost control of whatever that he wanted to do is
exactly what that town hall looked like to me as I was watching that jaw
slack. Charlie Pierce and Ben Domenech, thank you both.

Up next, the inevitable embarrassment that comes with running for public
office. We`ll have some choice moments from last night`s debate, and later
the process of Ahmed Mohamed`s arrest has raised a lot of questions. I
will talk to the chief of police in Irving to see what he had to say about
the situation.

Those stories and more ahead.


HAYES: One of the essential truths about running for office is that in
order to run for office successfully, you have to subject yourself to some
humiliation at least some of the time. Last night was no different, when
candidates were asked to come up with their own secret service code names.







TRUMP: Humble.




JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Ever- Ready, it`s very high energy,



HAYES: Ever-Ready accepting Humble`s offer of a low five, perhaps a
highlight of the evening.


HAYES: Last night`s marathon second Republican presidential debate drew
more than 23 million viewers, record for CNN, just slightly less than the
first GOP debate on FOX, which drew 24 million viewers.

Twenty-three million is a very, very large number. Last season Sunday
night football averaged 2 million fewer viewers than last night`s debate,
which helped why CNN charged 40 times the usual rate for ads during the
three-hour extravaganza.

But while the debate was good for ratings, it wasn`t good for us interested
in the truth. Over and over, the 11 candidates in the main debate and the
four in the undercard debate earlier in the day made claims that were
misleading, deceptive and flat out false, some of them dangerously so.

Donald Trump claimed he never tried to bring casino gambling to Florida.

Marco Rubio said U.S. policies to combat climate change will do absolutely
nothing to change the climate. False.

Ted Cruz said the nuclear agreement trusts the Iranians to inspect
themselves. False.

I could on. We could literally spend the entire show fact checking the
debate. But there were three untruths in particular that struck us as the
most egregious, offensive and dangerous of the bunch.

And joining me now to discuss them, Michelle Goldberg, senior contributing
writer at “The Nation”.

OK. I want to start with something Jeb Bush said last night that`s gotten
a lot of attention. Bush is being attacked by Donald Trump said George W.
Bush`s poor performance lead to the election of Barack Obama. And here is
how Bush responded.


BUSH: You know what? As it relates to my brother, there`s one thing I
know for sure. He kept us safe. I don`t know if you remember –


BUSH: Do you remember the rubble?


HAYES: Bush tweeted out that quote today along with his brother standing
on the rubble on the World Trade Center site.

Now, it is amazing it needs to be said, but apparently it does, the
September 11th terror attacks occurred nine months into the presidency of
George W. Bush, the deadliest terrorist attack in this country`s history
happened on his watch. You could argue Bush should not be accountable for
what happens in September 11th, but it takes real gal to claim that George
W. Bush kept Americans safe, and that`s before you even take into account
the thousands of Americans killed in the wars that Bush launched in Iraq
and Afghanistan.

And even if you somehow don`t count September 11th or the wars that Bush
started, that fact is that 277 Americans died from George W. Bush, while 90
had died under Obama, according to the data compiled by Michael Zenko of
the Council of Foreign Relations.

I can`t believe they`re going with this.

MICHELLE GOLDBERG, THE NATION: Yes, and they`re actually going with it.
Do you remember the rubble? If you remember the rubble then you know he
empirically did not keep us safe. I was amazed that actually Donald Trump
who at least as a New Yorker didn`t fire back with something, because there
used to be a climate of sanctimony around 9/11, right? Where we were
supposed to pretend that George W. Bush did this heroic thing by going out
with a bull horn.

But that dissipated by now. It should be obvious to everyone that whether
or not you kind of blame him for not reading that memo –

HAYES: Right. Exactly. Yes, right.

GOLDBERG: Right. It just like saying the Secret Service kept John F.
Kennedy safe. It`s just not true.

HAYES: Right. Or one thing about FDR is like he stopped us from being
surprise attacked. He did not do that. Like FDR did a lot of things. You
could argue – I am amazed and I`m also amazed the idea he kept us safe has
become the weird epitaph to the Bush era to conservatives.

GOLDBERG: Well, again, I think that that`s because the climate of
sanctimony, again, that he was a sort of, you know, hero riding around in
the ridiculous airplane as he did in mission accomplished. I think that
dissipated for everyone else but maybe not dissipated for them.

HAYES: All right. I want to talk about the most genuinely irresponsible
one of the night. This is Donald Trump`s suggestion there`s a link between
vaccines and autism. Take a look.


TRUMP: You take a little beautiful baby and you pump – it looks like it`s
meant for a horse not a child. We`ve had so many instances. People that
work for me, just the other day, 2 years old, two and a half years old, a
child – beautiful child went to have the vaccine and came back and a week
later got a tremendous fever. Got very, very sick. Now is autistic.

I only say it`s not – I`m in favor of vaccines. Do them over a longer
period of time. Same amount.

MODERATOR: Thank you.

TRUMP: But just in little sections.


HAYES: Completely wrong. Disproven by literature. The initial article
that had tenuously advanced had been retracted. The person published it
banished into infamy. There`s empirical literature on bunching of
vaccines. There`s nothing that suggests it`s unsafe. Not at all true.

Two doctors on the stage stood by and refused to confront him.

GOLDBERG: Right. I mean, that is like you said, I mean, people are going
to be hurt because of this, because so many people were watching and
because these untruths are so prevalent and so people are going to come
away from this.

HAYES: Twenty-four million people watched them say, yes, this horrible

GOLDBERG: Yes. And now we have a return of all these communicable
diseases because there`s this hugely destructive vaccine epidemic. And
yes, Donald Trump, you know, spouting conspiracy theories, perhaps there`s
nothing to be surprised about. The thing that was shocking you have the
two doctors who sort of kind of objected –

HAYES: Extremely gently.

GOLDBERG: Right. So both of them said there really isn`t a link proven
but there is a problem with the vaccines.

HAYES: Too many.

GOLDBERG: And Ben Carson talked about there being some sort of problem
with big government pushing this stuff. Anyone who watched this took it at
face value would come away thinking something sinister going on with the
vaccine regime.

HAYES: All right. Now, I want to talk about a moment that epitomized this
debate for me. It involved Carly Fiorina in terms of style one of her
strongest moments.


FIORINA: As regards to Planned Parenthood, anyone who has watched this
videotape, I dare Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama to watch these tapes.
Watch a fully formed fetus on the table, its heart beating, its legs
kicking, while someone says we have to keep it alive to harvest its brain.

This is about the character of our nation. And if we will not stand up and
force Barack Obama to veto this bill, shame on us!


HAYES: Heartfelt? Hugely misleading. There`s a grizzly image of a fetus
on one of the videos. We don`t know where the footage came from. There`s
no evidence. The footage she`s referring to had anything to do with
Planned Parenthood. Indeed, it is identified as coming from the anti-
abortion organization called the Grantham Collection.

We asked Fiorina`s campaign for evidence and they sent us grisly YouTube
video that show the same footage. But again, that`s not from those
undercover tapes that were taken of Planned Parenthood. We don`t know the
source of this and now, she`s not even – she`s been called out.

GOLDBERG: They`re not even claiming it`s from Planned Parenthood. It`s
not that we`re seeing that it`s doctored. This is just stock footage
that`s playing in these propaganda videos under somebody describing a scene
of the kind of what she`s talking about.

HAYES: Right. But the thing she describes is just to be clear like
doesn`t happen in the way that she says. It`s not some undercover video of
Planned Parenthood doing this ghastly thing while they have this ghastly
conversation. And again, it`s like me like I saw, you know, I saw Carly
Fiorina punch an old lady in the face and 24 million people say Carly
punched an old lady in the face. Not really. But that`s now there –

GOLDBERG: It`s an empirical question. They`re going back and forth.
Produce it. It`s not there.

HAYES: Yes, right. Produce it it`s not there.

You had something else to do about Fiorina myth-busting that you wanted to

GOLDBERG: Yes, this I find so galling about Fiorina, the secretary, the
CEO thing.

HAYES: She said, I went secretary to CEO.

GOLDBERG: Right. I mean, it`s all over her resume I think she owned It`s just completely fraudulent, right? Her father
was the dean of Duke Law School. He`s Nixon`s deputy attorney general.
She works as a secretary during summers off from Stanford and then kind of
joins AT&T after business school on a management track. I mean, it`s just

HAYES: Whatever you want to say whatever you made it in a corporate world
that was difficult for women to penetrate at the time you were doing it, et
cetera. But this is not some rags to riches story. Let`s just be very

GOLDBERG: Right. What is so offensive she poses as a figure it proves
anybody can do it. She uses it as a sort of cudgel against everybody else
that`s not making it.

HAYES: Although she did not inherit a real estate fortune from her father
or a political dynasty. So, there`s that. In the relative scheme of
things, she`s Horatio Algiers, although Ben Carson is actually that story.

Michelle Goldberg, thanks so much for your time.

GOLDBERG: Thank you so much.

HAYES: Up next, we have a little exercise for you. Can you fare better
than some of the Republican front runners?


MODERATOR: Earlier this year, the Treasury Department announced that a
woman will appear on the $10 bill. What woman would you like to see on the
$10 bill?

PAUL: Oh, that`s a tough one.



HAYES: Here`s a fun assignment. Name an American woman who you believe
should be honored on our currency.

All right. Got a name? Great. You`ve done better than roughly half the
Republican candidates gracing the main stage last night who were asked the
following question: Which woman should be on the $10 bill?

The lone woman on stage said we should keep the currency as is. Her
counterparts got a little more creative, some faring better than others.
Scott Walker clicked Clara Barton, founder of the American Red Cross. Rand
Paul went for an iconic though not terribly original pick, Susan B.

While Chris Christie had this to say.


CHRISTIE: I think the Adams family has been shorted in the currency
business. Our country wouldn`t be here without John Adams and he wouldn`t
be able to do it without Abigail Adams. So, I put Abigail Adams on the


HAYES: Praising that response led some of the audience and at home to
think Christie was initially referring to a different Adams family. Not
the family of America`s second first lady.

Marco Rubio picked civil rights icon Rosa Parks. Ted Cruz also picked Rosa
Parks but then one up Rubio by saying he`d put her on the $20 bill, not
$10. Donald Trump picked daughter Ivanka but then ultimately settled on
Rosa Parks.

Two candidates could only come up with family members. I mean, they`re
being asked, name a notable, celebrated American woman. Mike Huckabee
chose his wife and Ben Carson selected his mother.

Then, there was the candidates who neither pander to members of their
family, nor could name a single American who contributed to the country in
some noteworthy way. John Kasich picking Mother Teresa, the much admired
religious figure born in what is now Macedonia.

While Jeb Bush offered this selection.


BUSH: I would go with Ronald Reagan`s partner Margaret Thatcher, probably
illegal but what the heck? It`s not going to happen. A strong leader is
what we need in the White House and she certainly was a strong leader that
restored the United Kingdom to greatness.


HAYES: Great, OK. So, the final count is two foreigners, two family
members, three Rosa Parks, three other American women of note,
legitimately, and one pass from the only woman on stage. For the people
hoping to become our next leader for our nation, the task of naming a woman
whose accomplishes highlight the best of our democracy should not be that


HAYES: A little more than 24 hours Ahmed Mohamed went from unknown Texas
nerd to the internet`s favorite cause celebre. Lauded by business
magnates, scientists and the president of the United States. All because a
homemake clock he constructed in his bedroom workshop, an invention he
hoped would earn praise from his engineering teacher instead got him pulled
out of class, interrogated by police officers and ultimately arrested
bringing what police called a hoax bomb.

While the case was closed, no charges filed, Ahmed`s three-day suspension
from school still stands.

Last night I got the chance to talk with the 14-year-old about what
happened in school on Monday after one of his teachers confiscated the
clock saying it looked like a bomb.


HAYES: At what point did you find out that you were in trouble?

AHMED MOHAMED, SUSPENDED FROM SCHOOL: The point where I saw a police
officer and the principal.

HAYES: They came into your classroom?

MOHAMED: Yes, and they took me out. I got all my stuff.

HAYES: They said get your stuff, come with us and then where did you go?

MOHAMED: I went to an interrogation room filled with four other officers.

HAYES: An interrogation room in your school?

MOHAMED: It`s a school resource room. I call it the interrogation room,
because that`s where I got interrogated.

HAYES: So, they put you in a chair and there`s five officers total and
the principal. Did you ask them can I talk to my parents? Can I call my
parents and tell them what`s going on?


HAYES: Ad what did they say?

MOHAMED: They told me no you can`t call your parents here. You`re in the
middle of an interrogation at the moment.

HAYES: And what kind of things did they ask you?

MOHAMED: They asked me a couple of times is it a bomb? And I answered a
couple of times, it`s a clock.

HAYES: And that didn`t seem to satisfy them?


HAYES: How long were you in that room?

MOHAMED: About an hour 25 minutes, an hour – around an hour and 25.

HAYES: So what else were they asking aside from is it a bomb, if you were
in there for an hour-and-a-half?

MOHAMED: They asked me why I would bring to the clock to school. And I
had explained to them that I brought it to show my teachers to impress

HAYES: So eventually after an hour-and-a-half is that when they handcuff


HAYES: Did they say you`re under arrest or you`re being charged?

MOHAMED: They told me I was under arrest and I asked them for what crime
and they were like for a hoax bomb.

HAYES: How did you feel?

MOHAMED: I felt like I was a criminal. I felt like I was a terrorist. I
felt like all the names I was called.

HAYES: What do you mean all the names you were called?

MOHAMED: I was called – in middle school I was called a terrorist, called
a bomb maker, it`s because of my race and religion.

HAYES: What, you`ve been called that before by just by kids in your


HAYES: And were the officers saying things like that to you?

MOHAMED: One of the officers did comment on me walking into the room.

HAYES: What did he say?

MOHAMED: He got back in the reclined chair and he relaxed and he was like
– and he said that`s who I thought it was.

HAYES: And what did you take that to mean?

MOHAMED: I took it to mean that he was pointing at me for what I am and
my race, and he took it – he took it at me because I was just a student.
I never had any contact with him. I never talk toed him.


HAYES: That was my part of my interview with Ahmed Mohamed. One of the
details of his story that`s caught a lot of people`s attention is the fact
that as Ahmed just said the police didn`t allow him to call an adult,
either his parents or
an attorney during his hour-and-a-half long interrogation at school. That
may have directly violated Texas law.

I got a chance to talk to the Irving police chief. And I asked him about
just that. We`ll have his answer when we return.


HAYES: Up next, I`ll ask the police chief of Irving, Texas why his
officers arrested Ahmed Mohamed for bringing a clock to school. First,
this programming note. Bernie Sanders is in New York right now. In just
about 20 minutes he`ll be a guest on the Rachel Maddow Show right here in
30 Rock. That is going to be awesome. Do not miss that.

We`ll be right back.


HAYES: Three days after a 14-year-old Muslim student was marched out of a
Texas school in handcuffs for making a, quote, hoax bomb that was actually
homemade clock, local police are standing behind that arrest.

Irving police chief Larry Boyd announced yesterday no charges would be
filed against Ahmed Mohamed, saying there is no evidence the high school
freshman intended to cause alarm. But that pictures of the clock showed
that it was, quote, suspicious in nature.

Last night, Ahmed told me he was questioned in a room at a school for over
an hour without being allowed to speak to his parents.


HAYES: Did you ask them can I talk to my parents? Can I call my parents
and tell them what`s going on?


HAYES: And what did they say?

MOHAMED: They told me no you can`t call your parents. You`re in the
middle of an interrogation at the moment.


HAYES: Chief Boyd, speaking to press yesterday said he was looking into
the matter.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that your policies when someone is detained they`re
not permitted to call either an attorney or their parent in the case of a

CHIEF LARRY BOYD, IRVING, TEXAS POLICE DEPT.: You know, as stated earlier
any high profile situation we`ll have further follow up on. I don`t have
the answer specifically to your question as to whether he was immediately
allowed to call his father or not.


HAYES: Now boyd has not apologized for the way Ahmed`s arrest was handled
and has said race played no role in the incident.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What would the police reaction and response been the
same had this been a white student who brought that same exact device into
the school?

BOYD: Our reaction – and you`ve seen the image. Our reaction would have
been the same either way. That`s a suspicious device. We live in an age
where you
can`t take things like that to schools. Of course, we`ve seen across our
country horrific things happen. We have to err on the side of caution.
The reaction would have been the same regardless if a device like that is
found under the circumstances that it was found in this school.

HAYES: Joining me now is Irving Police Chief Larry Boyd.

Chief Boyd, given a little bit of time to process all this, and I imagine
you`re fielding a tremendous amount of press increase and the like, do you
have regrets how this was handled?

BOYD: You know, I think where we`re at right now is in the process of
examining everything that occurred, all the decision points. What we want
to do, what we`re about is looking out for the safety of all the students
and the staff and the school that we`re talking about here at MacArthur
High School. And we`re also about how do you make best decision for the
student involved in this particular case and you have to weigh the balance
of two of those.

Clearly, as you said stated, there`s been a great deal of attention to this
issue. I`m receiving a lot of feedback of course. And so what we want to
make sure we do is, as we do with everything, we want to learn and go
forward and ensure that we continue to make the best decisions for all the
parties involved.

HAYES: Is it standard operating procedure for five of your officers to
interrogate a 14-year-old boy without his parents present?

BOYD: Well, it`s not, you know, I`ve heard it reported as five – what
I`ve heard was four. What occurred in this case is at the school, at every
high school in Irving there are two school resource officers assigned to
that school. And so those two were already there, and because of the sort
of the complicated nature of this, their supervisor arrived and he had
another sergeant with him. And so there were four people there,
ultimately. You know, their supervisors arrived as well.

So it`s not a standard operating procedure. I understand how and why there
were four people at this call.

HAYES: Is it your understanding of, I think Texas law is a little unclear
here. We`ve been trying to figure it out as – is it your understanding
Texas law that a child like Ahmed in that position is entitled to have an
adult present?

BOYD: It`s not an entitlement. It`s not something that the law dictates
you have to have a parent present. Certainly, you know, as a father I
understand the desire to have parents involved, you know, in these sorts of
situations. In this case when they arrived with the level of allegation
and things they were trying to
determine and what they were dealing with, you know, so that`s not dictated
by law.

HAYES: Here is one of the things I think people are finding confusing.
Obviously if someone had brought an explosive device to a school that would
be terrifying, everyone would be on high alert, everyone would understand
extraordinary measures taken.

But nothing was done to indicate that anyone actually thought this was
actually an exploding device – no bomb squad was called, there was no
evacuation. Once it`s determined that this is just a clock or just a piece
of electronics, why then the arrest and all of that? That`s hard for folks
to understand.

BOYD: Right. And I get that. I understand the concern and some of it has
to do with exactly what you`re talking about. The officers pretty quickly
determined they weren`t investigating an explosive device, what their
investigation centered around is the law violation of bringing a device
into a facility like that that is intended to create a level of alarm. In
other words, a hoax bomb. Something that is not really a bomb but is
designed and presented in a way that it
creates people to be afraid.

HAYES: Right.

But he never called it a bomb. He just kept calling it a clock. I mean,
it never came out of his lips that this – he never did something where he
started showing it around saying look at the bomb I have. He just said
look at my clock.

BOYD: Right. And we talked about this in a press conference that I had
yesterday. There was definitely some confusion and some level of
information that didn`t come out immediately.

So certainly in the circumstance like that when the police arrive, you
know, they`re probably not going to, in many cases say I confess. You
know, this is not a bomb but I meant for it to look like a bomb.

And so you want to look at what are their elements. What other pieces of
evidence that go along with that to determine whether that happened or not.

And so what they had at that time, they made the best decision they thought
that they had at that point in time, then released him to the parent. And
of course we followed up with additional investigation, got all the rest of
the picture together and then determined that it didn`t meet the elements.

HAYES: Chief Boyd, I know that you said that race or religion or ethnicity
in this case had nothing to do with what happened. I want to play a
section of my
interview with Ahmed last night about something and officer said to him
when he came into the room. Take a listen.


MOHAMED: One of the officers did comment on me walking in the room.

HAYES: What did he say?

MOHAMED: He got back in the reclined chair and he relaxed and he was like,
and he said, that`s who I thought it was.

HAYES: And what did you take that to mean?

MOHAMED: I took it to mean that he was pointing at me for what I am – my
race, and he took it – he took it at me because I was just a student. I
never had any contact with him. I never talked to him.


HAYES: Does that trouble you, Chief Boyd?

BOYD; Well, so I would like to meet with Ahmed`s father. And we`ve talked
about meeting. Certainly that was a comment I wanted to know more about.
The officers have reported to their supervisors, which they reported to me
the exact opposite occurred. And that is that when the officer went into
the room it was a second school resource officer, as I understand it, went
into the room made the comment that`s not who I thought it was going to be.

And so it was the exact opposite of what he understood him to say.

HAYES: I just got to say I want to give you one last opportunity to say
what I think a lot of people watching this are saying is. Look, you have a
tough job. You have got to protect these kids, everyone is on high alert
all the time. We`ve seen horrible news stories of things that happened in
schools and everyone understands that. But just to be able to say, yeah,
we did not get this one right. It`s – I think it`s hard to folks watching
this from the outside, seeing of all this link up, seeing this kid who
seems like a tremendously poised, bright, genuine kid, be put through this,
to not hear from anyone in officialdom down there that, yeah, we didn`t get
this one right.

BOYD: Well, you know, I said as I started this interview with you that the
officers made the decision they did with the information they had with what
they thought was right at the time. We`re clearly going to review this.
We want to always look at ways that we can enhance and have a better
outcome. There`s a lot of decision points, there`s a lot of alternatives
that they have available to them. And so clearly we`ll look at this and
see what we can learn and ensure that, you know, as we move forward what
happened then happened then. I can`t really change anything there.

Now what I want to do is make sure that we have an opportunity to learn and
improve and make good decisions.

HAYES: All right, Chief Boyd, Irving poilce chief, thanks for joining me.

All right, coming up we`ll get reaction to that interview. I`ll be joined
by Congressman Keith Ellison. He is one of only two Muslim members of
congress, don`t go anywhere.


HAYES: There is an eyeopening, if sadly predictable and depressing
backlash going on right now against 14-year-old Ahmed Mohamed after he
brought home a homemade clock to school to show his engineering teacher.
Conservative mainstay and conspiracy theorist Frank Gaffney tweeing a
picture today of what appears to be Ahmed`s clock next to an image labeled
training IED device sold to law enforcement. The Tweet reads, quote, “can
you tell the two apart? I can`t #IstandwithBeth.

Beth is Mayor Beth Van Duyne of Irving, Texas where Ahmed and his family
live. She wrote on Facebook yesterday, I do not fault the school, the
police for looking int owhat they saw as a potential threat. Van Duyne
made national headlines earlier this year when she seemed to conflate a
Muslims mediation panel with Shariah law courts.

At the time the Dallas Morning News described her as, quote, a hero among a
fringe moment that believes Muslims, a tiny fraction of the U.S.
population, are plotting to take over American culture and courts.

Joining me now, Joy Reid, MSNBC national correspondet, Democratic
representative Keith Ellison of Minnesota, one of two Muslim members of

And congressman, your reaction to this story, to what is happening down in
Irving. Do the words you just heard from the Irving police chief.

REP. KEITH ELLISON, (D) MINNESOTA: Well, obviously they`re disturbing,
they show a startling lack of willingness to take a responsibility for this
obvious failure. I mean, you know, you take a kid and you put him in
cuffs. They know this was not a bomb because they did everything to
indicate they didn`t believe it was a bomb and yet they cuffed him, and
interrogated him.

You know, this, to me, indicates that, you know, that they`re trying to
generate a climate of fear even among 14-year-old kids. And when you think
about the behavior of the mayor earlier this year, it lends itself to the
idea that there is a very bigoted culture emerging. And I think the good
people of Irving need to stand up and say that this is not us that we are a
tolerant inclusive community.

HAYES: Joy, you`re a parent. You have a 15-year-old son?

JOY REID, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. My youngest song is 15. This young
boy reminds me – you know, the monotone. I recognize so much about a 15-
year-old boy. And at that age, number one, you don`t want to stand out in
a negative way, right, you are trying to fit in with your peers. This is a
kid who is doing exactly what we, as parents, want our kids to do. He`s
being curious. He`s being interested in science. We`re trying to get more
STEM research among young kids of color. He`s doing it all right. And
then he`s basically made a spectacle of, humiliated. His now first
experience with police is to be handcuffed in front of
his friends, dragged into a resource office.

As a parent I have real problems with the idea of interrogating a child, my
child`s age without me there., without his dad there.

I think as a legal matter, his parents need to look into that because we do
have a constitution. It does apply. He is not an adult. He`s a minor.
His parents should have been called at minimum.

But the idea of what has done to this child`s psyche is something that we
all need to be concerned about as parents.

HAYES: Yeah. I mean, as a parent if you got that phone call you would be
– I would be out of my mind with rage.

REID: Out of my mind!

HAYES: Congressman, I saw – my colleague at The Nation Ali Garib (ph)
wrote a piece today. He said Barack Obama should stand with Ahmed and he
should stand with Ahmed by visiting his mosque. And he pointed something
out. George W. Bush is the only American president to have visited a

What do you think of that idea? Do you think this president, despite his
tweet yesterday, has he done enough to combat what I think is undeniably a
very dark rising tide of Islamophobia in this country?

ELLISON: You know, I really do believe that the president can make a
really constructive difference in this situation. I remember when the
whole debate took over when he talked about race in a very definitive,
honest, sincere way. We need to talk about religious tolerance in this
country. The president has been the target of anti-Muslim hate as much as
anyone even though he`s a christian.

HAYES: Right, exactly, that`s right.

ELLISON: But the fact is I think this is a moment where leaders have to
stand up and say that, look, you know, this is an inclusive country and you
don`t get to demonize a minority group.

So I would be very pleased to see it. I`ve actually asked the president
himself about this and I`m hoping before he closes up he will visit a

HAYES; I want to play, again, I watched the undercard debate last night
from the Republican Party. And it was – they were talking about Islamic
terrorism, radical Islamism, then the main stage. Now, it`s true they`re
not saying all
Muslims, but they`re also not going out of their to say this is a small
group of
extremists who blah blah blah. As even George W. Bush did, and then you
see this. I`m going play this again from the Donald Trump town hall today.


TRUMP: OK, this man. I like this guy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: …from White Plains, amen, OK. We have a problem in
this country. It`s called Muslims. We know our current president is one.
You know he`s not even an American.

TRUMP: We need this question. It`s a…

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anyway we have training camps growing where they want
to kill us. That`s my question. When can we get rid of them?

TRUMP: We`re going to be looking at a lot of things. And you know a lot
of people are saying that and are lot of people are saying that bad things
are happening out there. We`re going to be looking at that and plenty of
other things.


HAYES: I want to say the Trump campaign response when asked to elaborate
on that initial response – one of the NBC News reporters, he said
Christians need support in this country, their religious liberty are at

REID: Our children are at stake. Children should not be interrogated by
police without their parents, children should not be stigmatized, our
Muslim-American children are American children. They need to be brought
into the body politic and embraced. The are our kids. This is a little

HAYES: Congressman, is it getting worse? I feel like the fever pitch is
getting worse. The things I hear people get away with saying about Muslims
are shocking to me.

ELLISON: Well, you know, it ebbs and flows. Right after 9/11 it was not
this bad. Then the lights of Frank Gaffney and others well financed anti-
Muslim hate machines got pretty ugly. I`ll never forget some of the things
said last presidential election. And now it seem the like we`re ginning up
the hate machine again.

You know, what Donald Trump did there is perhaps as much as any time I`ve
ever seen him, he has shown how utterly unqualified he is to be a leader in
this country.

HAYES: Yeah.

ELLISON: I mean, he has demonstrated that he has no moral courage, and
it`s shocking the way he responded to that questioner.

HAYES: Joy Reid and Democratic Representative Keith Ellison, thank you
both. That is All In for this evening. And the Rachel Maddow show starts
right now with a big interview that I`m going to run up to my office to


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