All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 09/11/15

Dave Weigel, Joe Crowley, Lynn Sweet, Hari Sevugan, Jumanne Williams


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN –

RICK PERRY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I`m suspending my campaign
for the presidency of the United States.

HAYES: Well, he`s gone. The Republican “Hunger Games” primary claims
its first victim.

And –

that he is overrated as a doctor.

HAYES: For the first time since becoming the frontrunner, Donald
Trump has a real fight on his hands.


HAYES: Where did Ben Carson come from and why is he gaining on Trump?

And then, the shocking new video of James Blake`s arrest. Tonight,
the former tennis star is speaking out again.

And Joe Biden opens up to Stephen Colbert.

know how much you love me. So you got to promise me something. Promise me
you`re going to be all right.”

HAYES: The vice president, the campaign and the politics of

STEPHEN COLBERT, COMEDIAN: I want to talk about the elephant in the
room, which in this case is a donkey.

HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

And tonight, we have our first casualty of the 2016 presidential


PERRY: Today, I`m suspending my campaign for the presidency of the
United States. I give you this news with no regrets. It has been a
privilege for me. It`s been an honor to travel this country, to speak with
the American people about their hopes and their dreams.

Indeed life is good. I`m a blessed man.


HAYES: Rick Perry suspending his campaign late this afternoon after
less than 100 days on the campaign trail. The longest-serving governor in
Texas history, Perry was the GOP presidential front runner at this time
four years ago, before his campaign flamed out thanks in part to the
infamous oops moment in the debate when Perry could not name one of the
three federal agencies he wanted to eliminate.


PERRY: It is three agencies of government when I get there that are
gone, Commerce, Education and the – what`s the third one there? Let`s

MODERATOR: You can`t name the third one?

PERRY: The third agency of government I would do away with Education,
the Commerce and let`s see – I can`t, the third one I can`t. Sorry.


HAYES: This time around, Perry had been unable to gain any sort of
traction in the Republican race, failing to rise above five percentage
points in national polls. Most recently polling around just 1 percent,
leaving him off the main stage for the first GOP presidential debate. The
writing has been on the wall for Perry`s exit. Last month, Perry stopped
paying his staff as his fundraising dried up. Soon after, Perry`s Iowa
campaign chairman quite and went to work for Donald Trump.

After Perry`s announcement today, many of the remaining Republican
presidential hopefuls released statements wishing him well, including one
Donald J. Trump who tweeted that Perry is, quote, “a terrific guy and I
wish him well”, adding, “I know he will have a great future.” A response
that was markedly different to other comments Donald Trump made about the
former governor during his short and ultimately futile run. Starting with
the beginning of his campaign when he announced his candidacy in an
aircraft hangar in Texas June in 90-degree heat providing a visual that
Trump could not resist knocking.


TRUMP: Some of the candidates they went in. They didn`t know the air
conditioner didn`t work. They sweated like dogs.

NEIL CAVUTO, FOX NEWS: What do you make of Donald Trump`s apparently
unimpressed reaction? What did you think?

PERRY: Well, I`m not going to run against any of those other

TRUMP: I see Rick Perry the other day and he`s so – he`s doing very
poorly in the polls. He put glasses on so people will think he`s smart.
It just doesn`t work. People can see through the glasses, but he`s got the
glasses, the whole deal.

CAVUTO: When you hear comments on physical features, or in your case
the glasses at all, what do you think? How do you respond that?

PERRY: I happen to believe that my record is what`s going to stand
out, not either how I do my hair or whether I wear glasses or not.

TRUMP: So far, everybody that has attacked me has gone down in the
tubes. You have Perry attacked me. Now, he`s getting out of the race. He
was at 4 or 5 percent.

FEMALE TV ANCHOR: Is Donald Trump right? Are you getting out of the

PERRY: You know, a broken clock is right once a day. So –


HAYES: Joining me now, MSNBC political analyst Howard Dean, former
Vermont governor, presidential candidate and chair of the Democratic
National Committee.

This is my question for you, Governor. As someone who`s a governor of
a state, when you watch this happen, when you think this is the first
person to get out, the guy who – you know, whatever you think of Rick
Perry`s politics – I don`t particularly like them. I think his record was
bad in many ways. He really did run the second largest state in the union
for 12 years and there`s something a bit perverse about him getting out
before certain other people in this race.

HOWARD DEAN, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, two of them are already
out. Pataki and Gilmore aren`t really running campaigns. They are sort of
already out, even though they haven`t formally said so.

This is inevitable. You get 17 candidates and there`s not enough
money. There`s only four or five that are getting the attention. And I
think there are going to be ten at the most that get to the starting line
in Iowa and then there are going to be a bunch more that drop out after

HAYES: Yes, part of what is interesting to me also is there is a lot
of back an forth about what do polls mean this early on, right? Oh, it`s
not predictive and, oh, it`s ridiculous. Four years ago Perry was up at
this point.

But what they certainly do mean is they do affect the dynamics of
fund-raising and viability in the short term. And in this case, you can
say whatever you want about the Donald Trump phenomenon, he`s never going
to be nominee, he`s never going to be president. He has succeeded at
certain level at knocking out Rick Perry who is certainly a plausible

DEAN: Well, Donald Trump is going to knock out more people than Rick
Perry. A lot of legitimate candidates are never going to get to the
starting line. You`re going to see – I`m going to bet you now that about
seven or eight of these candidates aren`t going to get to the starting
line, which is Iowa.

Christie`s probably one of them. The two we already mentioned. You
know, they are going to be – more. We don`t know which ones.

I mean, someone today, who is pretty smart, said he thought Scott
Walker wasn`t going to get to the starting line. That would be shocking
given where he started. But, you know, when you have 17 candidates and a
guy like Donald Trump and now Ben Carson leading the pact, it`s not a lot
of room for conventional politicians.

HAYES: Yes. So, you are saying seven or eight. I mean, that`s –
you know, that is fascinating. There`s a Keynes line about markets, where
he says markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent,
right? Which you know actually is a great line.

DEAN: That`s right.

HAYES: Which you knew firsthand, because he was actually a very adept
financial trader, made a lot of money in the markets. It strikes me we are
seeing a similar thing in the Republican primary, right? The primary
market can remain irrational longer or voters can, quote, “not come to
their senses” longer than you can remain solvent, longer than you can stay
in the race with enough oxygen and enough fundraising and enough
organization to keep at it.

DEAN: Right.

And the emergence of somebody like Kasich who`s really done well in
New Hampshire, for example, that makes it even harder for some of these
candidates like Chris Christie or Lindsey Graham is another that I don`t
think is going to make it to the starting line. In his own state, most
people think he ought not to run. That`s tough.

HAYES: Yes, we`re going to – yes, I think that`s an interesting
prediction. I wouldn`t be surprised if you are right, seven or eight not
making it to Iowa.

Howard Dean, always a pressure. Have a great weekend.

DEAN: Thanks, Chris.

HAYES: Perry maybe out of the race, but for the first time in months,
there is a candidate making Donald Trump sweat. A new Quinnipiac poll out
of Iowa shows Dr. Ben Carson in second place with 21 percent support,
putting him six points behind Trump in a state where Trump has led since

Carson, a retired neurosurgeon with no political experience, has been
steadily rising in national polls and now sits solidly in second place,
having risen from if 9 percent in mid-August to 19 percent in the most
recent poll, but that still leaves him 13 points behind Trump nationally.

Carson`s rise has come from a catastrophic slide, as alluded earlier
by Governor Dean, for Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker who is polling
double-digits in July but has now fallen to about 5 percent. Polls have
been particularly rough for Walker in Iowa where he was leading the PAC as
recently as July.

In that new Quinnipiac poll, Walker is all the way down in tenth place
with just 3 percent support, an utterly disastrous showing for a candidate,
staking his claim on a strong Iowa showing.

As for Carson, well, he campaigned in Ferguson, Missouri, where he
tried to play down his burgeoning rivalry with Trump. Carson on Wednesday
questions the authenticity of his faith, promoting – prompting Trump to
return fire, casting Carson as, quote, “just an OK doctor” who holds,
quote, “horrendous views on abortion”.

Carson later apologized and said he would not hit back.


CARSON: What I have are discovered is that the media loves to stoke
up controversy. And have people fighting each other like gladiators and I
think that`s exactly the wrong thing to do. You know, I`ve made it clear
that I was not attacking him. It was interpreted that way by the media and
I think he took the bait, but I`m not taking the bait. I`m not going


HAYES: Carson struck a similar note in an interview with NBC`s Ron
Allen today.


CARSON: I`m not going to get in the mud pit. If people want to
attack me and say horrible things about me, that`s fine. I`m not going to
get back in the mud pit with them.

RON ALLEN, NBC: And you think that can be a winning strategy, even in
the way that politics is played these days?

CARSON: Whether it`s a winning strategy or not, that`s who I am.
And, you know, I don`t talk about people. I just don`t do it.


HAYES: Carson and Trump are both positioned far outside of the
Republican political establishment, neither of them ever held elected
office. But beyond that, they don`t have much in common.

I mean, Trump is a legitimate celebrity, brash reality television star
who`s been in the national consciousness for decades. Carson is something
else entirely, staunch religious conservative, an accomplished neurosurgeon
that doesn`t seem particularly comfortable frankly in the spotlight.
Carson seems to recoil from the sorts of insults that Trump relishes and he
has managed quietly garner huge audiences in the campaign trail and emerge
now as a legitimate threat in the polls.

Joining me now are “Washington Post” national political reporter Dave
Weigel, who`s on the trail with Carson today, and Dorian Warren, host of
MSNBC`s “NERDING OUT” on Shift, a senior fellow at Roosevelt Institute.

Dave, I was thinking to myself today would I have taken the bet a
year, eight, six months ago, Ben Carson at number two, Rick Perry out of
the race at this point. I don`t think I would have taken the bet, frankly.

DAVE WEIGEL, THE WASHINGTON POST: No, thank goodness that none of us
are held accountable for our predictions. The media has not done a good
job of saying who will rise and who would fall.

You were saying before that Carson has done that quietly. I can`t
emphasize enough. I was with him in California, Texas and today in
Missouri. He had maybe a fifth as much media attention as Donald Trump,
maybe a third as much as Jeb Bush that consistently circled him on the
launch pad trying to find a way to take off.

There`s a confusion how to cover this guy I think because his support
base and his celebrity were with very under the radar. A lot of home
schoolers who loved him for years. A lot of evangelicals who we`ve heard,
a lot of people who had seen him speak at events as a celebrity
inspirational speaker. He really did creep up on people and he`s still
creeping at people at 25 percent.

HAYES: Yes, Dorian, David`s point there I think is important. In
some ways, Ben Carson had carved out celebrity for himself. It just wasn`t
the celebrity that Donald Trump had. It was among a certain segment of the
population who knew who he was, who bought his books and gone to his events
and view him as a sort of inspirational national figure.

What do you – what is your understanding of the Ben Carson appeal?

DORIAN WARREN, MSNBC HOST: My understanding, Chris, is twofold.
First, you have to look at whose dropped in the polls. You mentioned Scott
Walker earlier, but also look at the drop in support for Jeb Bush, right,
and you look at where are the supporters for someone, not only for Trump
but Carson – evangelicals, as well as climate change deniers which is a
little ironic considering he was a neurosurgeon who believes in science but
he denies that there is manmade activity that causes climate change. And
then also look at women.

So, across those three groups and there are more, but climate change
deniers, evangelicals and women, Carson has been quietly building support.
By the way, for a party in the midst of dog whistling racial politics, it
actually I think makes white Republican primary voters feel good about
supporting a black candidate. Remember Herman Cain, Mr. 999, Ben Carson is
experiencing the same thing.

And he believes he can get black voters which is a total
misconception. There is a Ben Carson of the `90 that black America loved
and frankly black America think he`s kind of lost his mind. And now,
there`s a Ben Carson that`s trying to run as a Republican who white
Republican voters are starting to love.

HAYES: Well, OK, I want to come back to that, the Ben Carson, because
I think that`s also a fascinating story. But having talked to folks at
these events the last few days, what do you get – what kind of sense do
you get about how politically involved these people are and what their
politics are and why they are there?

WEIGEL: Well, this is something if I was a Democrat or working for a
Democratic campaign it would make me worry. I meet a lot of people at
these events and Trump events who say they have not really been involved in
politics. Maybe they voted. Many say this is the first guy they have
donated to. Many people who never organized in politics but they have
chosen to become a Ben Carson precinct captain or a state director in some
cases, people who just met this guy years ago or saw his prayer breakfast
speech from 2013 and followed him.

So, I think a lot of evangelical voters who are not interested in
politics or given up certainly just in the last nine months of the year
have given up decided he is so unique and inspirational, in the way, you
know, it (INAUDIBLE) a lot of liberals, that they are going to work for
him. There`s no one else they would consider working for.

It`s a question of whether they stay involved in politics. But for
now, they are really passionate about him.

HAYES: Dorian, your point there that David mentioned the 2013 prayer
breakfast, which was a breakout moment for the current incarnation of Ben
Carson. But, of course, Ben Carson was famous among African-Americans,
particularly in Baltimore for a very long time as this amazing, path-
breaking, rags-to-riches story about a guy that went from dirt poor to one
of the most celebrated doctors in the country.

What do you mean when you say that 1990s Ben Carson could have won a
lot of black votes, this one can`t?

WARREN: Well, that 1990s Ben Carson was telling an inspirational
story of uplift from poverty. He didn`t take hard-line political
positions. This Ben Carson has situated himself squarely in to multiple
bases of the Republican Party, right? So, around, again, denying climate
change, most of his issue positions actually don`t coincide with black

So, for him in Ferguson today, he doesn`t think there is an issue with
police in the midst of the news about James Blake, the tennis player being
tackled by New York City police officers, that doesn`t ring at all with
black voters. There`s no chance in hell black voters will say oh, Ben
Carson, you represent us.

Now, let`s be clear, Ben Carson is a shrewd and savvy politician. He
knocked at Donald Trump. He basically Bible whistled and said I don`t know
if he is really a Christian. Then he backed away from it. That is a
shrewd political move. Let`s not underestimate his political skills.

HAYES: Yes, I think that`s actually a really good point, even if he`s
sort of playing naive. Obviously, an incredibly accomplished guy.

Dave Weigel, Dorian Warren, thank you very much.

Still to come, the new shocking video of a plain clothes NYPD officer
taking down tennis star James Blake.

Plus, the petulant response from congressional Republicans after they
failed to stop the president`s Iran deal.

And later, Joe Biden sits down for his first interview since his son
Beau died, in a moving conversation about grief and his possible
presidential bid.

Those stories and more, ahead.



for the lowest number on the board strategy to, you know, just to explain
my –

HAYES: Number three.

REID: Yes.

HAYES: Another prime number.

REID: Yes.

HAYES: Three, will it deliver for Joy?

Rick Perry.

ANNOUNCER: Rick Perry, he`s got three good reasons to run but can
only remember two.

PERRY: What`s the third one there? Let`s see.

ANNOUNCER: The former governor of the lone star state is back. But
this time, he`s got four eyes on the prize.

PERRY: Today has been awesome, girl.

ANNNOUNCER: He`s former Texas Governor Rick Perry.


HAYES: Well, Rick Perry`s announcement he is pd suspending his
campaign for president isn`t just a loss for supporters. It`s a loss for
Joy Reid who picked Rick Perry in our ALL IN 2016 fantasy candidate draft
back in January.

Well, there are no penalties for your draft candidate dropping out.
Rick Perry`s decision does mean Joy won`t get more points from him. The
rest of the scoreboard will light up like a pinball machine next week as
most of the remaining Republicans head to the Reagan library for their
second debate.

We`ll be right back.


HAYES: Across the country today, Americans observed the 14th
anniversary to the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001. Family members
gathered for a somber ceremony at the Lower Manhattan site where the Twin
Towers once stood. Vice President Biden met with first responders. In
Washington, President Obama observed a moment of silence on the White House
lawn with the first lady.

Up on Capitol Hill, however, House Republicans were using the occasion
for a different aim – denouncing the president`s nuclear deal with Iran.
A day after Senate Democrats handed the White House a momentous victory on
the deal, the House GOP passed a symbolic resolution disapproving it,
adding the nuclear accord to a very long list of things President Obama has
managed to achieve without a single Republican vote.

During the floor vote this morning, one speech in particular
illuminated the politics of the vote. It came from Republican Congressman
Mike Kelly of Pennsylvania fresh off of his appearance at the anti-Iran
deal rally on Wednesday.


REP. MIKE KELLY (R), PENNSYLVANIA: We need to echo what we said on
September 11th before and that is – never forget, never forget, never
forget, never forget, never forget, never forget, never forget.


HAYES: In his speech today, the congressman invoked 9/11 once again.


KELLY: As we let our eyes fill with tears over the great loss that
day, and as the ears picked up on the message from our enemies in the east
– death to Israel, death to the great Satan, death to America, let us
resound with love and strength and temerity and say, listen, never again,
never again, never again.

Do not sacrifice the safety, the security and stability of 330 million
Americans for the legacy of one man.


HAYES: Those comments provoked a strong response from member of New
York`s congressional delegation, Democrat Joe Crowley.


REP. JOE CROWLEY (D), NEW YORK: Mike Kelly is a good man. I like
Mike. I admire him.

But I think he did a disservice to the House and to this debate by
bringing up the issue of 9/11. I thank him for his honesty, for at least
showing that that`s this is all about, having this debate and vote today to
stir the emotions of the American people.

My emotions always stirred on this day. Fourteen years ago, I knew
people who died that day. My cousin died. My friends died. I don`t need
to be reminded of that.

But it will not cloud my decision making on this important issue.
Now, after all of this discussion and talk about bipartisanship, a real
profile of courage would be for one of you to support your president, one
Republican to stand and support your president.


HAYES: Joining me now is Congressman Joe Crowley, Democrat from New

Congressman, do you think this was a cynical attempt by the House
Republican leadership to hold this vote on this day explicitly to try to
use the sort of emotion of the day to cow Democrats on this vote?

CROWLEY: I think it has taken 14 years, Chris, but they finally
politicized 9/11. I think it`s very unfortunate. We`ve avoided it for the
first 13 years, but unfortunately, they did it this year. I do think there
was some calculus in this. We could have started debate a day earlier, had
the debate yesterday. We could have started the debate later and had the
vote next week.

The timing of the vote really didn`t matter anymore once the Senate
had gone home. So, I do think they rushed this, they moved this vote
forward. We initially thought this vote would be next week, but it was
this week, and I think they did it to time it on 9/11.

HAYES: I have to say I remember when 9/11 was with invoked as the
reason to go to war in Iraq. That Saddam Hussein had connections to
Mohammad Atta, that was subsequently debunked. Now, being told by a
certain quadrant of American politics that the reason to vote down on Iran
nuclear deal is because of 9/11.

And it just seems to me, in some says a disservice of the memory of
the event to not be accurate about who exactly did 9/11 which was neither
Saddam Hussein or Iraq and not the Iranian regime. It was al Qaeda and bin
Laden and Zawahiri, and those are different people.

CROWLEY: Chris, you`re letting the facts get in the way. You know, I
made comments on the floor about the fact that many of my Republican
colleagues never read the deal before they came out against it. They
criticized us for not supposedly reading the Affordable Care Act before we
brought it forward. They were against it before they read it.

The facts – they don`t let the facts get in the way. And I thought
it was outrageous was the base level they brought the debate to the floor
on. As I said, I like Mike Kelly, but I thought he did a disservice to the
House and floor and to the institution that I love. We were not able to
focus on the deal itself. Not once did they focus on the deal, only the
rhetoric and it really did a disservice to the American people.

They`re not dumb. They know what happened. They know what happened
on 9/11. They know that Iranian regime had nothing to do with it.

They`re not great people. The regime is not a good regime. They do
bad things. But they were responsible for 9/11.

HAYES: Well, and when you woke up this morning to go to work, did you
know, like most days I imagine when you have a vote that, you know, you are
not going to get a single Republican vote on this.

CROWLEY: I knew that. In fact, I was mulling that in my mind about
this outcry for bipartisanship in opposing the president, yet not a single
Republican. I know there are Republicans that know what they are doing is
wrong. Not one of them had the courage to stand with their president, our

He`s not my president alone. He`s not a Democratic president. He is
all of our president and they let politics and the bullying of their party
get in the way of doing the right thing.

HAYES: All right. Congressman Joe Crowley, great pleasure today.
Thank you very much.

CROWLEY: Thank you, Chris.

HAYES: Coming up a massive update on the Clinton e-mail controversy
that remarkably no one seems to be talking about. I want to tell you what
it is. So don`t go anywhere.


HAYES: OK, so at the heart of the Hillary Clinton email
controversy, you have been hearing so much about is this – did she break
any rules or violate the law? Yesterday, though practically no one in the
media noticed, we got the best indication yet from the Department of
Justice that Hillary Clinton did not violate
the law when she deleted personal emails.

The headline from the Washington Times was “Justice Department rules
Hillary Clinton followed law in deleting emails.” Similar headline
appeared in Buzzfeed today. But otherwise extremely small amounts of
coverage of this development.

So, here`s what happened. The conservative group Judicial Watch filed
a petition with U.S. district court in Washington, D.C. basically asking
that the State Department make public the personal emails Clinton had
deleted from her email server. The Justice Department responded on behalf
of the State Department in an
official legal brief submitted to the court.

Quote, “there is no question that former Secretary Clinton had
authority to delete personal emails without agency supervision. She
appropriately could have done so even if the were working on a government

The legal brief was 10 pages long, but that was the heart of it.
Hillary Clinton, as Secretary of State, was within her legal right to
delete personal emails.

This particular legal battle does not address whether classified
emails were sent or received or whether she knew at the time they were sent
or were received. It does take, however, one plank of the controversy that
Clinton did something illegal by deleting personal emails and show that in
the opinion of Justice Department there simply is no there there.

And you would think given how much coverage has been given to this
whole thing that maybe that plain fact would get a little more attention.


HAYES: Tonight we have disturbing video of the arrest of former
tennis star James Blake outside a New York City hotel in what appears to be
a case of mistaken identity. Surveillance footage released this afternoon
by the NYPD shows Blake standing outside of the Grand Hyatt Hotel two days
ago when he is rushed by a plains clothes police officer who tackles him.
The officer than handcuffs the former tennis pro while he is laying face
down on the ground.

Blake, who first spoke about the incident on Wednesday, says he was
detained for 10 minutes before the officer and his colleagues realized they
had the wrong man.


JAMES BLAKE, TENNIS PLAYER: I immediately talked to my wife. She was
the first one I talked to. And she said, what if this happened to me and
immediately I was furious because I thought about what I would be thinking
if someone did that to my wife, if someone tackled her in broad daylight,
paraded her around on a busy crowded sidewalk in New York City with
handcuffs, with her cuffed behind her back and taking away her dignity and
I just couldn`t accept that.

And I know that a lot of people have no voice to have any recourse and
lucky enough to have the opportunity to sitting here with you to be able to
tell this story and let people know that this happens too often.


HAYES: The NYPD brass, who first learned about the incident through
media reports, they say, said that Blake was with mistaken for a suspect in
a fraudulent credit card ring.


BILL BRATTON, NYPD COMMISSIONER: The concerns we have was the force
used appropriate and the initial review, we believe that it may not have

And that secondly, what transpired after the release of Mr. Blake
relative to reporting of the incident, which was not done.


HAYES: The officer, who was seen on video tackling Blake, has since
been placed on desk duty pending investigation. He has also been
identified as James Frascatore, a four year veteran in the NYPD.

Now Frascatore is currently named in two open federal civil lawsuits
involving men who claim they were beaten, pepper sprayed and falsely
arrested. Not only that, an investigation done by WNYC last year found
that Frascatore was named in five civilian complaints during one seven-
month period in 2013.

New York City Bill de Blasio and NYPD commissioner Bill Bratton who
both apologized to Blake about the incident. Today he thanked the two men
but said, quote, extending courtesy to a public figure mistreated by the
police is not enough. For that reason, I`m calling upon the city of New
York to make a significant financial commitment to improving that
relationship particularly in those neighborhoods where incidents of this
type, the type I experienced occur, all too frequently.

Joining me now, New York City councilman Jumaane Williams, Democrat
representing the parts of Brooklyn where those do occur fairly frequently I
think it`s safe to say?


HAYES: My first thought when seeing that video was forget mistaken
identity, let`s say that was the guy. I mean, really? Let`s say that was
a person who was
doing – was part of a credit card ring that was doing bad stuff. It still
seems a completely excessive and unnecessary use of force.


First of all, it is 9/11, a lot of people are remembering their
families, so I want to say grace and peace to them.

But of course, the first thing is irrespective, the guy is leaning up,
chilling. It`s not a violent crime he was suspected of. You don`t think
he is a violent suspect.

HAYES: There`s no APB out saying this guy might be packing.

WILLIAMS: So, why do you rush him and throw him down to the ground?
I think that is really inexplicable. And so we have to talk about that.

And the second is why does this happen so often to certain type of
people? And I think people try to divorce the two with and you shouldn`t.
Now, this happens to people who don`t have melanin in their skin? I`m sure
it does. But if you look at how many times this occurs and how many times
we see this, it happens more often to people who have more melanin in their
skin. And if people – remember, it happened to me and a friend of mine on
Labor Day. And I remember thinking it got a lot of attention. Whatever
happened to me wasn`t substantiated because there was no video, what
happened to my friend was substantiated because there was video, but we
were able to deal with it, get policy change. And I remember thinking what
if I wasn`t a council member.

HAYES: You got stopped and frisked essentially by cops.

WILLIAMS: Well, we were going to an event on Labor Day weekend. They
didn`t believe who we said we were. They roughed us up, arrested us. He
worked actually for Bill de Blasio at the moment in time. He was thrown to
the ground.

And we said what if we weren`t public officials, what would happen?
We would have records and nothing – no one would have been the wiser.

HAYES: Well, one of the things I think that`s disturbing about this
case, and again, I think one of the things we have learned about this is
you can have a very small number of police officers who act in a reckless,
sometimes cruel fashion who could do a lot of damage if they are left to do

In this case, and I don`t want to – I don`t know the full record of
this person, but we have reporting that suggests that this is a cop who`s
had a lot of
complaints lodged against him.

WILLIAMS: What`s tough here is being a police officer is a tough job.
Getting people to do things they don`t want to do is tough. Getting
someone – to arrest who doesn`t want to be arrested is tough. But that`s
not what is happening here. This was inappropriate force used. And it
seems like there was a person who has a record of doing this.

So, where is the Tickler (ph) system to make sure that if we see
something going on here that we say pause on this person, either work with
them or remove them.

And – so the good things that happened, the apologized, which is
good. And they and modified duty. We need to see accountability, real
accountability after the investigation. But what I didn`t like was that
there were people trying to pretend that race had nothing to do with it.

HAYES: Yeah, instead of Commissioner Bratton said it is ridiculous
and he said if you look at the photo of the suspect he looks like the guy`s
twin brother.

WILLIAMS: So, the thing is – the bad part is if you can not admit
part of the problem, we can`t fix it. So, if we say race has nothing to do
with it, then we won`t be able to deal with the part that race plays in the
fact that every time we look at this, we know what the person looks like
that`s happening: black, Latino mainly.

The other thing is what if he, rightfully so, had responded. We might
have had another person injured or dead on a nonviolent crime.

HAYES: This is such a key point. According to Mr. Blake, the police
officer did not identify himself. And if you see from that video the
police officer is not in uniform. There`s no point at least in the initial
approach where he appears to flash a badge. And you can imagine that Mr.
Blake thinks that he is being assaulted and possibly fears for his own
life. Maybe this guy is going to kill him right there and if he had fought
back, if he whacks him or if punches him, the next thing you know the
police officer fears for his life and he could be dead.

WILLIAMS: And the two things here, one is, we have to have
accountability for these officers. They have to be punished for actions
that are wrong. The second is we have to just be honest about how race
plays in policing and in these issues.

HAYES: Jumaane Williams, thanks so much for being here. Appreciate

WILLIAMS: Thank you for having me.

HAYES: All right, still ahead, Joe Biden`s emotional interview with
Stephen Colbert and a look at the struggle for authenticity in politics.
Stay with us.


HAYES: We have an ironclad editorial policy here at All In, which is
that on those occasions when my children visit the set they get to choose
something to play on air, usually it`s an animal. And tonight, we`re
expanding that. My daughter`s request tonight is pandas. So, Ryan (ph),
here are some pandas.

Pandas are really important to the world, because they are cute,
people enjoy watching them and they are beautiful part of nature and life.

My son, who is 17 months old, speaks enough that when I asked him this
morning what he wanted to see, he replied with his current favorite word
choo-choo. So David here`s a choo-choo train. Trains are fun, great in
getting people from one place to another, generally extremely cool and
awesome to look at.

And because I am nothing if not an equitable arbiter between my two
children, and here is a panda on a train. Right now, really, nothing is
better than a panda on a train.



STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, LATE NIGHT: Everybody likes Joe. And even –
I have to say even talking about you in the third person I`m uncomfortable
calling you Joe. You are the vice president of the United States.


COLBERT: No. No. I want to give your office the respect it
deserves. How much is that?


HAYES: Vice President Joe Biden`s first interview since the death of
his son Beau was a really remarkable piece of television because he was so
much more than what we are used to seeing when a politician sits down with
a comedian.

Joe Biden`s conversation with The Late Show`s Stephen Colbert was
honest, and tender and at times profoundly moving. It began with Colbert
trying to shed some light on Biden`s likability factor.


COLBERT: Everybody likes Joe Biden, right? I`ll tell you why I think
that is, I think it`s because when we see you, we think that we`re
actually seeing the real Joe Biden. You are not a politician who has
created some sort of facade to
get something out of us or triangulate your political position or emotional
state to try to make us feel a certain way. We see the real you.

How did you maintain your soul in a city that is full of people trying
to lie to us in subtle ways?

BIDEN: What always confuses me about some folks I work with is why in
god`s name would you want the job if you couldn`t say what you believed?
I`m not – there`s nothing noble about this, but ask yourselves the
question. Would you want a job that, in fact, every day you had to get up
and you had to modulate what you said and believed? If you are going to
run, you are running for a reason. You want the job for a reason and if
you can`t state why you want the job, than there`s a lot more lucrative
opportunities other places.


HAYES: When the topic later turned to Joe Biden`s son Beau who
succumbed to cancer back in May, the vice president had a sympathetic ear.

Biden, of course, lost his wife and daughter in a car crash in 1972
before he was elected to the senate. Colbert lost his father and two of
his brothers in a plane crash as a child just two years later.


BIDEN: Think of all of the people you know who are going through
horrible things and they get up every morning and they put one foot in
front of the other and they don`t have, like I said, anything like the
support I have. I marvel – I marvel at the ability of people to absorb
hurt and just get back up and most of them do it with an incredible sense
of empathy to other people.

I mean, it is interesting. The people I find who I am most drawn to
are people who have been hurt and yet – I`m not going to embarrass you,
you are one of them, old buddy. No, no, no. Your mom, your family, losing
your dad when you were a kid and three brothers. I mean, you know, it`s
like asking what made your mother do it every day? How did she get up
every single day with, you know, 11 kids?

COLBERT: Well, she had to take care of me. She did. No, that`s it.
We were there for each other.

BIDEN: By the way, that must have been a hell of a job.

COLBERT: And I had to take care of her.


HAYES: And towards the end of the interview it was time to address
the elephant in the room.


COLBERT: You said recently, you said this weekend, that you don`t
know if you are emotionally prepared to run for president?

BIDEN: Look, I don`t think any man or woman should run for president
unless, number one, they know exactly why they would want to be president,
and two they can look at the folks out there and say, “I promise you, you
have my whole heart, my whole soul, my energy and my passion to do this.”

And I`d be lying if I said that I knew I was there. It`s a – I went
out to Denver and I landed on a military base and I met a whole group of
military families which is not unusual. On the rope line, 100 yards from
the aircraft and about
two-thirds were in uniform, the other were family members. And I was
thanking them and I really meant it. This 1 percent is fighting for 99
percent of the rest of us.

And I was talking about them being the backbone and sinew of this
country and all of a sudden, it was going great, and a guy in the back
yells, “Major Beau Biden, bronze star, sir, served with him in Iraq.” And
all of a sudden I lost it. How could you – that`s not – I shouldn`t be
saying this. But that – you can`t do that.


HAYES: One of the last things Colbert told the vice president was,
quote, I think we`d all be very happy if you did run. And a lot of people
agree. And a lot of people last night watching that I think felt that
feeling. There`s a paradox here, though, it`s that the Joe Biden that
everybody saw last night cannot be the same Joe Biden who runs for
president. And I will explain next.



CLINTON: It`s not easy. It`s not easy. And I couldn`t do it if I
just didn`t passionately believe it was the right thing to do.

You know, I have so many opportunities from this country, I just don`t
want to see us fall backwards. You know? So…


HAYES: That was Hillary Clinton famously tearing up on the campaign
trail in 2008 while answering a question about dealing with the riggers of
a presidential campaign that of course credited for launching her to
victory in New Hampshire.

Joining me now Hari Sevugan, he`s former national press secretary for
the DNC, and Lynn Sweet, columnist and Washington bureau chief of the
Chicago Sun-Times.

And Hari as someone who has been on the other side of the press during
this, here`s the way that I view the paradox of authenticity in a political
campaign. The press demands authenticity, ranks people by authenticity,
also demands total discipline and no gaffes. And those two things are of
course – like normal people say stuff all the time that could be
misinterpreted or that they regret, but that`s part of actually being
authentic. And so in some ways it is a mug`s game trying to live up to
these expectations of authenticity.

absolutely right. And I think that`s the paradox of Joe Biden in a lot of
ways. He`s so honest and sometimes that honesty leads to a gaffe and more
times than not it allows people to see who he really is and create that
sort of empathy with the American people.

I think when Joe was talking about, last night, when he was talking
about Beau`s fellow serviceman coming up to him and talking about serving
with him and Joe breaking down and saying I can`t do that, I think what he
was referring to, I don`t know this for sure, but what I think he was
referring to as president of
the United States you can`t afford those kinds of emotions.

But you are absolutely right, Chris, there is that paradox. But I
think that`s what allows people to connect with the vice president in such
a meaningful way.

HAYES: But do you think that is a fair characterization of the way
the political press approaches this, this sort of – this sort of seeking
authenticity and sort of analyzing whether people are seeming staged or
awkward at the same time
punishing things that might be authentic, but are also gaffe inducing?

LYNN SWEET, CHICAGO SUN-TIMES: Well, I think you make it a little
more complicated than it has to be. When you talk about the raw emotion of
your son dying where you don`t have to worry about one wrong word about
policy or anything you do come across as more authentic.

The reason people stick to talking points is that they don`t want to
make mistakes and my god I think we are all grateful that we do shows like
this and don`t say something because you can`t take it back.

But having said that, I think the overriding thing here is that the –
Biden is getting sympathy because if you couldn`t be authentic, if you
couldn`t speak about your sorrow and the death of your son it almost would
seem unnatural, wouldn`t it?

HAYES: Yeah, it would.

But I can also imagine another politician handling it very differently
and not talking expansively about it. I can imagine a variety of ways. I
can also imagine Michelle Goldberg made this point that a female politician
making the same point about breaking down and feeling emotion would be more

SWEET: I don`t know. I think it depends how people are. Someone who
is a veteran Biden watcher told me that how he processes his grief is
through talking. This is very characteristic and I don`t know if this is a
gender thing or not, of course women always have to be careful if they tear
up or cry.

HAYES: I guess my point, though, is more that like it`s like – I
love watching that interview last night, because it felt like it was
existing in a space of just – it had left the sort of fourth dimension of
politics or media, it felt like I was watching a human being – two human
beings like just talk about some of the most profound aspects of life and
suffering and faith and things like that.

And, you know, I was reminded of that documentary about Mitt Romney
that was on Netflix, which was – he was the most I ever liked Mitt Romney.
It was him just being a person, right, talking about things with his family
and in some things you say well why can`t that be the guy on the stage,
Hari, but of course that can`t be the guy on stage.

SEVUGAN: No, it can`t.

I mean, there`s a difference between being able to go on a show and
talking about the loss of your son and then running a campaign.

You know, and I think one of the things that the vice president hit on
last night that is very important is he`s got to be ready for this. He has
to be able to say to the American people that he can give 110 percent.

I mean, a campaign is grueling thing. You are up at 4:00 a.m. every
day and you`re not going to bed until midnight or one and shaking a million
of hands and you`re on a bunch of planes. And governing is equally hard,
especially in the White House.

So, having that sense of contemplation, which he showed last night, I
think is also real important. And it serves as a stark contrast for what
we see on the Republican side. And I think that is also terribly important
for the American
people to see.

HAYES: You know, Lynn, I was thinking about Hillary Clinton`s
favorability ratings. And there is this pattern throughout her whole
career, right, they are high when she`s not running for office and then
they come down when she is running for office.

SWEET: And that is instructive as to what I think Vice President
Biden will face if he gets in the race.

Now, this is a – what a grace period.

HAYES: That`s right. That`s exactly the point. And I thought about
Colbert saying everyone likes Joe Biden and then talking about the most
tragic, overwhelming awful thing you can imagine, you know a father having
to deal with. And – but you know, if he declares a month from now, you
are like back in the pit and people are going to be making fun of you
saying something out of line.

SWEET: It is brutal. Politics is – you know, at this level it`s
brutal. The only one who seems immune right now from paying any
consequence of a gaffe is Donald Trump, but who knows.

HAYES: Who knows how long that lasts. Hari Sevugan and Lynn Sweet,
thanks for joining us. That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow
show starts now. Good evening, Rachel.


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