All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 05/08/15

Todd Smith, Jesse Walker, Curtis Ellis, Kathleen Turner, Lisa Green, Jordan Carlos


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN –

ALEX JONES, INFO WARS: They have the safety off, their finger is on
the trigger for a final takeover, and they are in the final phases of doing

HAYES: Right-wing fear over a federal invasion of Texas.

FORMER REP. RON PAUL (R), TEXAS: I see that the federal government
has taken over.

HAYES: Tonight, the next governor`s new explanation for using the
Texas guard to monitor an American military drill.

And, the latest presidential candidate to pander over paranoia.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: I understand the concern that`s been raised
by a lot of citizens about Jade Helm.

HAYES: Then, the now bipartisan pushback on the president`s trip to
Nike town.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s got to be the shoes!

HAYES: Plus, why the anti-abortion right is attacking Kathleen
Turner. The legendary actress is here to respond.

And, should sex on the beach land you on a sex offender registry?

REPORTER: Bold and brazen with their bodies, now busted and behind

HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

Republican Texas Governor Greg Abbott is still defending his
controversial decision to call in the Texas guard to monitor U.S. military
exercises happening in his state this summer – a move that`s been slammed
by members of his own party for stoking paranoid furies about a planned
invasion of the Lone Star State.

In an interview today, Abbott attempted to dispel those theories while
laying the blame for the hysteria squarely at the feet of President Obama.


GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R), TEXAS: I think the cause of the underlying
concerns is that we see instances like a shooting in Ft. Hood by a
terrorist, that the president labels workplace violence. We see the
president come to the border in Texas and say, it`s safer than it`s ever
been, only to have a record number of people crossing the border, coming
into the state of Texas.


HAYES: The training exercise has the admittedly cryptic name Jade
Helm 15 and is taking place in the southwestern U.S. from July 15th to
September 15th. It`s an actual exercise. It`s meant for the armed
services to practice counterinsurgency tactics under conditions more like
an actual battlefield.

And this is the Pentagon`s map of Jade Helm 15, color-coded to show
which areas are hostile for the purposes of the exercise, which are
friendly, and which are in between. You may notice that two hostile
states, Texas and Utah, also happen to be in red in the political sense –
leading conservative Texas Congressman Louie Gohmert to the following


REP. LOUIE GOHMERT (R), TEXAS: You start seeing those kind of things
and you go, now, wait a minute, because I know participating in military
exercises, in helping plan them, you would never use the real name of a
country, for example, you`d make up names. And the reason why is you would
never want one of our foreign allies to think we were doing exercises to
prepare to go into their country. You wouldn`t want to insult them or
alarm them. So, you never use real names.

And it appears that they`re quite comfortable, in this one case, in
using real names, and Texas is hostile, we`ve got to take that back. We`ve
got the take back Utah.


HAYES: That is just the tip of a very ominous iceberg.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Martial law in America.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are not just drills. Texas will be the
first state to be under martial law.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jade Helm, jade, China, helm, at the helm, who`s
in control? China`s in control.

JONES: They`re trying to come to our houses and kill us, if we

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Claiming that they are just a regular training
exercise. No, they`re not! This is not regular!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a preparation for martial law.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is not a preparation for martial law, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s what you say.


HAYES: OK. So, as fringy as those theories may sound, they`ve gotten
quite a bit of mainstream legitimacy from people like the governor of
Texas, Governor Abbott, and Senator Ted Cruz, an actual presidential
candidate, sitting senator, who requested more details about Jade Helm 15
from the Pentagon.


CRUZ: You know, I understand the concern that`s been raised from a
lot of citizens about Jade Helm. It`s a question I`m getting a lot, and I
think part of the reason is, we have seen for six years a federal
government disrespecting the liberty of the citizens.


HAYES: There are dissenters to the jade helm hysteria, but within the
Texas GOP, former Governor Rick Perry said the military is, quote, “quite
trustworthy”, and John Cornyn, the senior senator from Texas told reporters
Wednesday that after meeting with defense officials, he`s convinced that
Jade Helm 15 is, quote, nothing more and nothing less than a typical
training event.

One 16-year veteran of the Texas state legislature, a fellow
Republican, went so far to write a letter to Governor Abbott, blasting him
for, quote, “pandering to idiots.”

I`m joined now by the author of that letter, former Representative
Todd Smith.

What moved you, Representative – former Representative, to write that

FORMER STATE REP. TODD SMITH (R), TEXAS: Well, just like many people
in Texas, on Thursday, I read in the newspaper that the sitting governor of
the state of Texas had issued a statement saying that he was going to use
taxpayer money to call out the Texas state guard, which is a state military
operation, to, in his own words, monitor U.S. Navy SEALs in order to, in
his own words, protect Texans from the U.S. military.

And I was horrified. I was angry. I literally, that night, rolled
around in bed for an hour, because I could not believe where our state had
gotten and I went to the office the next morning and did what I could do,
which is to write a letter to the governor and make a public statement,
expressing my disgust at his decision to pander to the farthest extreme of
political activists in the state of Texas.

HAYES: Can you explain – OK, so, there are conspiracy theories a
bubble up all the time, and there are legitimate reasons, let`s just
bracket for a moment, that people might not want a military exercise
happening in a given place. We can understand those.

In this case, you`ve got this pretty, I think, paranoid idea that the
U.S. government is preparing some martial law takeover of Texas. What is -
- what`s the play here? Explain to me the politics that leads Greg Abbott
to not just say, look, to do what Rick Perry did and John Cornyn did and
say, look, there`s nothing to worry about here?

SMITH: Well, there`s been a huge transition in the Republican primary
over the last 15 years, as against the Republican primary that I was
originally elected into in the late 1990s. You know, we got a sitting
government that has as very close relationship with Ted Cruz. Ted Cruz
used to be the solicitor general, and the attorney general staff. The
governor used to be the attorney general. So they are political friends,
political allies.

And we have, on the other hand, a lieutenant governor, who used to be
a radio talk show host, who is amazingly, enough, perceived, possibly, to
be right of the sitting governor who sent this letter out. It`s rumored
that the lieutenant governor looks in the mirror at night and sees himself
governor and is looking at a run for governor in four years when Governor
Abbott would be up for election.

So, we have a lieutenant governor that used to be a radio talk show
host, a governor who is very close to Ted Cruz, who is concerned about,
apparently, a run from his right.

HAYES: Right.

SMITH: What that means is we`ve got these two elected officials that
are in a race to the furthest extremes of the Republican Party, and I think
that`s the context in which his statement was made last week. And again,
it`s just an indication of what the Republican primary has become in Texas.

HAYES: Yes, you`re referring, in the case of Lieutenant Governor Dan
Patrick, who is quite conservative, quite sort of charismatic in his own
way. He has a powerful base. And what you`re saying, what I`m hearing
from you, is that Greg Abbott, the sitting governor, is looking in the
rearview mirror, and seeing his own lieutenant governor tailing him, and
has to basically stay in front of him?

SMITH: Well, it`s not his own lieutenant governor. The lieutenant
governor in Texas is elect –

HAYES: Elected independently, of course.

SMITH: Elected independently on a statewide basis. But that
certainly is the conventional political wisdom, is that that is the only
possible explanation for why you would have a sitting governor sending out
statements like this, that could only possibly appeal to the furthest
extreme of primary voters.

HAYES: Former Texas State Representative Todd Smith, it was a
pleasure. Thank you, sir.

SMITH: Thank you.

HAYES: All right. Joining me now, Jessie Walker, books editor of
“Reason” magazine, author of a great book, “The United States of Paranoia:
A Conspiracy Theory.” A really fantastic read that I recommend.

Jesse, it`s good to see you. I like to talk to you when topics like
this come to the fore.

This actually has sort of the classic elements of a great paranoid
conspiracy theory, mostly, if we have that map, I don`t know if we can show
that map again, but the map really makes it. Because that, I think, is the
thing that really kicked this off, don`t you think?

image to use. I mean, when I`m blogging about it, I always know what
picture to put up.

I mean, there`s a couple of things to bear in mind about this. You
bracketed earlier, non-conspiratorial objections, but this gets lost a lot
– there are very good reasons to not want to have a military training
exercise in your community.

HAYES: Absolutely.

WALKER: And this – and in particularly, Bastrop, which is where this
big meeting was held last week or the week before, they just had those
horrible wildfires that destroyed almost 1,700 homes in 2011. And so,
people there are very nervous about things like, will they be using a smoke
grenade on a dry day?

I mean, not all of the objections that are bubbling up have to do with
martial law and things like that. So, that`s one important thing –

HAYES: Let me just stop you there. Those are legitimate and I also
think that, you know, if the governor wants to come out and say, you know,
we`ve got concerns about whether due care will be taken or what impact this
will have on the community. But in some ways, it would be more politically
difficult to articulate those reasons to impose – to have a military
exercise than it is to say that this is a threat to Texan sovereignty.

WALKER: Yes, well, he didn`t use the phrase, “a threat to Texan
sovereignty,” but actually he could have very easily made a statement that
just highlighted those and even connected at the same, we don`t trust, you
know, the central government to do right by us, but of course it`s
difficult, because it`s the military, and conservative politics can be
split that way.

But the other thing to look at here, is that, you know, even when a
conspiracy theory doesn`t have any validity to it, and I don`t think that
the ones being tossed around about this exercise do, if they catch on and
it speaks to an underlying anxiety or experience of the people who believe

And the most popular conspiracy theory about this, and there are a
number of, but the most popular has – you know, this martial law idea, I
think it speaks to this fear of the militarization of policing. I mean,
people have overtly cited that in Texas, who are talking to reporters. You
know, the idea, you know, police seeing themselves as soldiers. The idea
of losing that barrier between, you know, the armed forces and the police
forces. And that`s a perfectly – that is also a perfect legitimate thing
to be concerned about.

In this case, what happens, and what often happens with conspiracy
theories that aren`t true, a real anxiety gets neutralized, and turned into
sort of a convenient story to hang that on. And so, even though – I mean,
I think if a cabal of fascists was going to try to impose martial law, they
probably would not go to the county government for permission first. You
know, so there are little –

HAYES: Let`s hold a hearing.

WALKER: Yes. Well, yes, I mean, the hearing was actually after the
local government approved it, but the local government did approve it some
months back. So – in fact, you know, the judge who was presiding over the
meeting last week, he apologized. He said, we didn`t – I mean, he thought
it was a good idea. He`s moving forward with it, but he said, if we had
realized that there was going to be this much dissension, you know, we
would have brought that into consideration. We just didn`t think people
would be afraid of this.

HAYES: Yes, well, maybe a big counterinsurgency training exercises
will be the new practice I fracking. The, not in my backyard do I want
fracking or big exercise –

WALKER: Yes, people have NIMBY-ed about a lot more than this – I
mean, a lot less than this.

HAYES: That`s true.

WALKER: And people have rebelled against this sort of thing.
Operation Urban Warrior in Oakland. You had the local left sitting in
Jerry Brown`s office, he was the mayor then protesting it. And again, you
had that mixture of quality of life issues like noise and disruption and
pollution, a fear of the militarization of American society, and then some
dubious conspiracy theories. People saying, maybe the marines are doing
this because they want to crack down on uprisings in U.S. cities.

We`ll we`ve seen it before and we`ll probably see it again.

HAYES: Jesse Walker, thank you very much.

Up next, the president takes on some of the most beloved progressives
in his own party.


issue, they`re right there with me. And then on this one, they`re like,
whooping on me. They`re making this stuff up. This is just not true.



HAYES: Senate Homeland Security and Government Affairs Committee held
a meeting yesterday on jihad 2.0, social media and the next evolution of
terrorist recruitment, which focuses on ISIS`s extremely deft use of memes
and other forms of social media.

Now, it`s a legitimate concern, but that didn`t keep the Senate
hearing from descending into the sort of self-parody that brought to mind a
comment by former Senator Ted Stevens who in 2006 famously described the
Internet as a, quote, “series of tubes”.


SEN. CORY BOOKER (D), NEW JERSEY: You know, I know something about
memes, the data you`re presenting about Muslims killing Muslims, and this
is a group that`s killing more Muslims, to get memes to go more viral.

Look at their fancy memes compared to what we`re not doing.


HAYES: Look at those fancy members, their fancy memes, compared to
what we`re not doing. I wanted to help in Cory Booker`s crusade to improve
America`s insufficiently fancy memes. So, I headed over to the meme
generator and built a meme of my own. It`s one of my favorites going
around. Michael Jordan crying, here`s crying Michael Jordan channeling
Cory Booker and lamenting all their fancy memes compared to what we`re not


HAYES: President Obama arrived in Oregon last night, where he was met
by protesters, upset over his push to pass a 12-nation Asian-Pacific trade
deal, called the Trans Pacific Partnership.

Now, the president`s support of TPP has put him starkly at odds with
liberals in his own party, including Elizabeth Warren, and presidential
candidate and Senator Bernie Sanders, who cast the deal as a corporate
giveaway that will cost jobs and lower wages.

It has also put him in alignment with some Republicans, including
prominently Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan, with whom he almost never

At Nike`s headquarters today, the president made his case for the deal
and he criticized liberals who`ve attacked his position, saying some of
their claims are simply made up.


OBAMA: They`re my fellow travelers on minimum wage and on job
training and on clean energy and on every progressive issue, they`re right
there with me. And then on this one, they`re like, whooping on me. On
this issue, on trade, I actually think some of my dearest friends are


HAYES: But it`s not just liberals who are critical of the president`s
plan to pass TPP and specifically get trade promotion authority from
Congress so he can push the deal through. A number of Republicans,
including Alabama Senator Jeff Sessions, Donald Trump of all people, and
Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal are calling on Congress not to grant the
president the so-called fast track authority, which would prevent Congress
from amending the deal after the president negotiates.

Newly minted Republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee, who`s
fusing a kind of economic populism and staunch social conservatism, has
been particularly critical.


deal that drives American wages lower and that isn`t monitored and isn`t
secured to be completely fair in how it`s administered, then that`s not
free trade.


HAYES: Joining me now is another conservative who opposes this deal,
Curtis Ellis, executive director of the American Jobs Alliance. Just wrote
a column on World Net Daily about your opposition to this.

I – a few weeks ago, as this was starting to play out, which has been
largely covered as a kind of internecine fight on the left, right? I mean,
that`s how you see it, that`s how the president talks about it. I said,
there is space on the right for people to go against this. This is kind of
a layup in many ways.

Do you think that`s true?

CURTIS ELLIS, AMERICAN JOBS ALLIANCE: Absolutely. I can`t recall a
single ad for a Republican candidate in the last election that said, vote
for me, elect me, and I`ll hand more constitutional power over to Barack

HAYES: That`s right, because the substance of the deal is one issue,
and the process, which would essentially be, Congress is going to have to
take a vote, right, to grant this authority that will allow the deal to be
voted on up or down without amendments. Do you think that`s going to be a
tough vote for Republicans? As of now, they don`t see it that way, I don`t

ELLIS: It`s absolutely going to be a tough vote. Come on. We
learned today that only two senators have actually read this. Now, they
want to put this deal on a fast track, but they haven`t read it. But we
know the two senators who have read it aren`t supporting it. Jeff Sessions
read it.

There`s – this thing is called a living agreement, meaning after it`s
ratified, it can change. It`s a shape shifter. The president can change
it, other countries can join it, and there will be no congressional

This will literally be the last free trade agreement ever debated.
But before we get to debate it, we`re supposed to put it on a fast track,
get rid of the whole –

HAYES: Now –

ELLIS: – two-thirds majority required for the largest international
compact in American history. That`s shredding the Constitution.

HAYES: So, well, where is – what you`re saying right now, my
question is, people, you know, the candidates are going through Iowa right
now, right? And they`re going to get questions in town halls the about a
whole bunch of this stuff, right? Are they going to get questions in Iowa
town halls and New Hampshire town halls about this?

Is there a part of the base, the activist base of the Republican
Party, that`s going to press people on this, that`s going to make them
declare where their votes are going to be? Do you see that pressure

ELLIS: I have seen it. I`ve seen that pressure. I`ve been in town
halls with congressional members of Congress with senators. I`m sure
they`re going to get questions about it. And not just from the media.

Look, if you go on to Breitbart and you look at the comments that are
being generated –

HAYES: That`s interesting.

ELLIS: – it`s unanimously against it.

HAYES: Against it.

ELLIS: Against it.

HAYES: You know, it`s funny. You and I were talking about this
before, I covered something called the NAFTA super highway, which is a
thing that didn`t actually exist, although there was part of it that was
this corridor, it`s very complicated.

Anyway, what I remember finding myself in reporting that was that
there was a big part of the right-wing base that was really opposed to
NATFA. Really thought NAFTA was a raw deal. Pat Buchanan was sort of the
standard-bearer for that.

And right now, that`s not represented at all in the Republican Party
leadership. It seems like there`s a space there to be that candidate and
Huckabee is kind of taking that mantel.

ELLIS: Huckabee, Carly Fiorina has come out against it.

HAYES: Which was surprising to me.


And, look, the leadership of both parties, the Republican Party and
the Democratic Party, they`ve both been bought by the same Wall Street
interests. And there`s deep suspicion among the rank and file, in both
parties, against this.

The principal division in this country is an opportunity between
liberals and conservatives or even Democrats and Republicans. It`s between
the elite and the rest of us.

HAYES: Music to my ears.

Curtis Ellis, thank you very much.

ELLIS: Thank you.

HAYES: Very good.

All right. Coming up, disturbing racist text messages surface in the
San Francisco Police Department. That story is next.


HAYES: Back in March, it was revealed that members of the San
Francisco Police Department had exchanged overtly racist text messages.
The texts became public after they were outlined in that federal court case
against one of the officers, Sergeant Ian Furminger, who was ultimately
convicted and sentenced to more than three years in prison on corruption-
related charges.

Here are just some of the texts uncovered in that case, in response to
a text asking, quote, “Do you celebrate Kwanzaa at your school?”, Furminger
wrote, “Yeah, we, burn the cross on the field.” Another text from
Furminger reads, quote, “Cross burning lowers blood pressure. I did the
test myself.”

In response to a text from another San Francisco Police Department
officer, regarding the promotion of a black officer to sergeant, Furminger
wrote, “F`ing N-word.”

And then there`s one, quote, “I hate to tell you this, but my wife`s
friend is over with their kids and her husband is black. He`s an attorney,
but should I be worried?”

Furminger`s friend and SFPD officer responded, “Get your pocket gun,
keep it available in case the monkey returns to its roots. It`s not
against the law to put an animal down.” Furminger responded, “Well said.”
These are working police officers.

Yesterday, the San Francisco district attorney announced that with the
help of three retired judges, his office is expanding an ongoing
investigation of the city`s police and sheriff`s departments. According to
NBC News, quote, “The judges will look at the circumstances of the 3,000
arrests to examine whether biases influenced arrest decisions, the
decisions of prosecutors, and potentially results in wrongful convictions”.
That`s arrests associated with some of these officers.

This news comes just as the U.S. Justice Department announces it will
be giving Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake what she asked for in
the wake of the death of Freddie Gray, a civil rights probe to investigate
whether the Baltimore Police Department engaged in a pattern of
unconstitutional policing.

In the last several months, the Obama Justice Department has launched
similar inquiries into police departments of Ferguson and Cleveland after
African-Americans were killed by police in those cities. The Cleveland one
actually started before Tamir Rice.

“The New York Times`” Peter Baker makes this point, quote, “Many
presidents have governed during times of racial tension, but Mr. Obama is
the first to see in the mirror a face that looks like those on the other
side of history`s ledger.”

On Monday, the president announced an expansion of his My Brother`s
Keeper initiative, bringing in private companies as part of an alliance to
help combat the massive structural impediments faced by young men of color.
And earlier this week, the man in charge of the task force, assistant to
the president and cabinet secretary Broderick Johnson, visited Baltimore to
talk to kids, educators, and local leaders.

Afterwards, he told me about the goals of My Brother`s Keeper.


we`re trying to accomplish first of all is just in terms of the reach is
that we know that there are points throughout the lives of all children,
starting really with from cradle and following all the way through to their
early 20s, when things make a big difference in terms of intervention in
their lives. We know these things based on data. We know these things
based on experiences.

And so what we`re trying to do through my brother`s keeper is make
sure through both public and private initiatives that we can identify and
help bring funding and resources to those lives of children and young
people along the way. It is a public/private effort to do that.

HAYES: Given the challenges that particularly young men of color
living in poverty in urban environments face, that`s a specific population,
but let`s talk about that for a moment –


HAYES: – and just looking at things like incarceration rates or the
degree to which they`re enmeshed in the criminal justice system,
unemployment and poverty, I mean, doesn`t this amount to essentially a
Band-Aid on a gaping wound?

JOHNSON: No, not at all.

I think it`s important first to look at My Brother`s Keeper and the
context of many other things that this president has been doing over the
last six years. Whether it has to do with what we do about our criminal
justice system, taking a look at the relationship between local law
enforcement and people in their communities, looking at things we can do to
help young men of color, especially, avoid situations in which they will
end up in the criminal justice system, or they will be victims of violence.
It`s really a very broad approach through our economic policies and our
educational policies and our criminal justice policies.

This is just one aspect of it, but it`s an important aspect, because
what makes MBK particularly unique, Chris, is that it`s a community-based
approach, and we have been going across the country as you noted listening
to what young folks have to say.

HAYES: Does America put too many young men in prison?

JOHNSON: I don`t think there`s any question that we have way too many
– far too many young men who are in the criminal justice system who are
otherwise disconnected from their communities because they are not in
school or they are not working. So it is a problem and it`s something that
we can correct and that we have to correct as both a moral and an economic

HAYES: When you talk about the president`s record on this, I mean,
what concretely has this,
obviously, you know, a lot of this is done at the local level, right?
Police departments are local, state laws and state statutes. But, I mean,
what has this White House done? What are the concrete steps this
White House has done or will take to attack that problem of over
incarceration or mass incarceration?

JOHNSON: Well„ for example, through the efforts of the Justice
Department, with respect to what we can do about with programs designed to
help local law enforcement and local criminal justice systems be able to
give an opportunity for young people, when they come out of that system,
through anti-recidivism programs, to make sure that they don`t get in the
revolving door or don`t end up on the school-to-prison pipeline. And then
working to ensure when they get out of those situations, when they have an
opportunity to turn their lives around, that they have a second chance.

That`s where job training and job apprenticeship programs are very

But Chris, there`s still – let`s be honest, there`s still a lot of
work to do and the president`s very
focused on making sure that we continue to do this work and change these

HAYES: Broderick Johnson, chair of My Brother`s Keeper task force.
Thank you, sir. I really appreciate it.

JOHNSON: Thank you very much, Chris.

HAYES: All right, up next, Kathleen Turner under attack for her
stance on reproductive rights. She`ll join me – she is joining me right
live next on set. You`ll see her after this break. Stick around.





UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE; Wait until I tell Diane. She`s always bragging
about her dad`s Cadillac.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you think, Peggy Sue?

KATHLEEN TURNER, ACTRESS: Oh, dad, you are always doing stuff like
this. It`s funny. It`s really funny. You bought an Edsel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Young lady, what`s the matter with you? Are you

TURNER: Uh, just a little. I had a tough day.


HAYES: The great Kathleen Turner in the iconic time travel movie,
“Peggy Sue Got Married,” in an outfit, by the way, that would be perfectly
contemporary in Brooklyn right now.

The actress has come under fire this week from right wing media for an
op-ed she wrote warning about the hidden political power of so-called
Personhood abortion bans. Quote, the unabashed extremism of Personhood
help makes the larger anti-choice movement seem more moderate, providing
cover for more incremental abortion restrictions that make it much harder
for women to access abortion.

And when those measures pass, Personhood advocates get closer to their
goal. Without access to safe and legal abortion, a woman`s right to choose
is essentially meaningless.

Joining me now is Kathleen Turner, Academy Award-nominated actress,
board member of People for The American Way. It`s a great pleasure to have
you here.

KATHLEEN TURNER, ACTRESS: I`m very glad to be here.

HAYES: So, so you wrote this op-ed about the way the sort of
Personhood movement, which hasn`t been successful on its own terms,
actually accomplishes some other goal.

TURNER: Yes. I mean, I think it`s really a Trojan horse. The fact
is that because it`s been soundly defeated in several states, Mississippi,
North Dakota, that one thinks that it`s a non-issue. But in fact, at the
same time, there have been hundreds, hundreds of bills in every state,
making it more and more difficult to access any kind of health care, not
just abortion.

The – but the things like, you know, a 72-hour waiting period that`s
unnecessary, unnecessary
medical tests, a clinic that have to live up to emergency room standards
for no good reason. Doctors that have to have accreditation at a local
hospital, but then a local hospital, if they have public funding, are not
allowed to give credit to doctors – yes.

All of these things. And one of the issues that bothers me the most
is that all of this targets the least-fortunate women in our society. To
be quite honest, any woman with means of any kind…

HAYES: Is going to be able to…

TURNER: Is going to have whatever treatment she wants.

So, what we`re really doing is incredibly – incredible lack of
equality. We are truly making the least capable – women, the least who
can afford to suffer, suffer the most.

HAYES: You know, as I was ready the op-ed, which I thought was very
good, and I should just – just so people are clear, Personhood amendments
essentially could give…

TURNER: It gives a fertilized embryo full rights…

HAYES: Full legal rights under the 14th Amendment.

TURNER: Which is before women, are actually listed in the
constitution, by the way.

HAYES: So, as I was reading the op-ed and then I was sort of looking
online, I was noticing you got written up and attacked by a bunch of
conservative sites.

TURNER: Right.

HAYES: Anti-choice sites.

I mean, I guess my question is, of all the issues you can talk about
publicly, this strikes me as near the top in terms of the amount of
backlash it causes. Do you feel – I don`t know, how do you feel about
being a public figure advocating something that people are going to be
angry about?

TURNER: Well, this is something I`ve been doing for 30 years. So,
backlash is not the newest
thing to me. And in many ways, I think in my industry, people have simply
come to accept it. Oh, well, there she goes again.

However, however, working with people for the American Way, one of the
reasons that we wrote this, and I wrote this op-ed, was the information we
get from our Right-Wing Watch, which is a
fantastic blog, and in fact, you all get a lot of information…

HAYES: We do, yeah.

TURNER: …from us on that.

It`s almost as though people simply don`t believe all these attacks on
women. And I`m not speaking just of right or access to abortion, it has
reached to point where it`s access to health care at all.

HAYES: You said you`ve been working on these issues for 30 years.
And it always strikes me that in the space of women`s equality, there are
sort of two stories to tell. One is incredible tremendous gains and that`s
in educational attainment, it`s in professional…

TURNER: Professional attainments. Yes, indeed.

HAYES: And then at the same time, there`s all sorts of ways in which
it seems things have moved backwards or…

TURNER: You know, Chris, this is a bit of a misread to me, because,
in the last, what, three years, there have been 331bills passed across this
country against access to contraception and reproductive health care. Why?
Why would this be so?

I have a terrible idea. And you`re not going to like it. Nobody
likes it.


TURNER: The fact that women have become so successful, where 57
percent of the higher degrees in education, 40 percent of working wives are
the primary breadwinner in their families. I think men are scared.

HAYES: You think this is essentially classic backlash politics?

TURNER: I think it is.

HAYES: That actually there`s a relationship between intensified
efforts to restrict women`s reproductive choice at a time in which they`re
achieving more parity in the economic sphere.

TURNER: It`s the only thing that makes sense to me.

HAYES: That`s interesting.

the industry that you`ve worked in, show business, for much of your

TURNER: Right.

HAYES: When not doing this kind of work, I mean, it always strikes me
as to have just bizarre gender politics too.

TURNER: Oh, it does.

HAYES: Because on some level, all these people, it`s like Hollywood
liberals, but then you scratch the surface of just about anything and any
of the institutional politics of Hollywood or show

TURNER: Oh, they`re really misogynistic, on the whole.

HAYES: Yes, frankly.

TURNER: Is one reason why everybody lives out in Los Angeles, I

Yes, I mean, if you look at the statistics in our industry, women have
a tiny percentage of important roles. We`re a tiny number of directors and
writers and executives within the industry.

HAYES: Yeah, it`s truly shocking.

TURNER: Probably less than almost any other.

HAYES: That`s what I mean. I mean, if you look at something like big
law firms, right, places that you think of being bastions of the old
patriarchy, they are actually better I think in some ways statically in a
place like Hollywood and things like.

TURNER: I`m afraid you`re right.

HAYES: Why is that? When`s that going to change?

TURNER: I think a lot of it has to do with ticket sales. They simply
believe, or they have, although this is changing, that men sell more

HAYES: Men drive sales.

TURNER: Right.

And so women come along as second place, you know.

HAYES: One of the things I`ve seen in my small sliver of the media
world is that certain mythologies get born about what sells or what
doesn`t, that aren`t necessarily based on data, but they have an incredibly
enduring effect.

TURNER: Well, have you have ever noticed how there`ll be suddenly
three or four films of the
same thing out of…

HAYES: Exactly. And then – like right now, there`s this amazing
renaissance of female-written comedies, because one worked, and then all of
a sudden people started saying, well, maybe women can be funny. And next
thing you know, that`s the way it works.

Kathleen Turner, it`s a great pleasure to have you here.

TURNER: Thank you very much.

HAYES: All right, up next, drunken sex on the beach between two
consenting adults, how`s that for a tease, leads to sex offender charges,
and the threat of 15 years in prison.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s ridiculous. It shouldn`t happen. There`s
a time and place for everything and it`s not for on the beach.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To be just that up-front and bold and just hard-
core, it was like, wow.



HAYES: The All In crime blotter for this Friday night takes us to
Virginia Beach, Virginia where video was taken of a fairly standard bank
robbery. Guy walks in, hands the teller a note, the teller, seen here,
hands over cash, lots of cash.

Now, how do we have this video of the robbery in progress? Because
the accused bank robber posted it on Instagram.

He also posted this very polite note he apparently handed the teller
that reads in part, I need 150,000 bands right now, please. The note ends
with a smiley face. So, there`s that.

23-year-old Dominyk Antonio Alfonseca was arrested 20 minutes after he
left the town bank in Virginia Beach. Alfonseca told one local news
station he isn`t guilty of the crime he`s accused of because he asked for
the cash in the best possible way.


gave a note and I asked actually politely. A robbery is demanding, going
and demanding something and
taking the money or whatever like that. I didn`t do that.


HAYES: Now, now that we`ve cleared that up, a Florida couple is
facing the possibility of 15
years in jail, 15 years in jail, after an amorous afternoon on a public
beach. Does the potential punishment fit the crime? That`s next.



DISPATCHER: Nanatee county 911. What is the address of the

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I`m at, um, a beach, I`m at Ana Maria
Beach. And there`s a couple here that will not – will not stop getting
naked in front of everybody.


HAYES: A Florida couple caused quite a stir among Bradenton
Beachgoers last July. 40-year-old Jose Caballero and 20-year-old Elissa
Alvarez claim they were just cuddling that day. Witnesses had a different
interpretation of the afternoon`s events.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sex on the beach caught on camera. Look at this
YouTube video of a Manatee County couple doesn`t hold back. Bold and
brazen with their bodies, now busted and behind bars.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This isn`t, you know, an after-hours disco that
people can use for a garbage can. This is, you know, this is the root of


HAYES: As one traumatized sunbather told a local news station, “I`ve
lived here since 1978. I go to the beaches. I have never seen anything
like this.

Police responded, arresting the couple, but the ordeal did not end
there for Alvarez, that`s him in the red, just FY .

They`re each charged with two counts of lewd and lascivious behaviors,
charges that carry a
maximum sentence of 15, 1-5 years in prison. After rejecting a plea deal
offered by the state, the couple went on trial. As the Bradenton Herald
reports, video played in the courtroom showed Alvarez moving on top of
Caballero in a sexual manner in broad daylight. Witnesses testified a 3-
girl saw them.

After 15 minutes of deliberation, a jury found them guilty.

So, now, get this, the couple will have to register as sex offenders.
But the state attorney prosecuting couple says he won`t seek the maximum
penalty. It was never our intention to seek 15 years for either of them.
That`s not a reasonable sentence.

A sentencing date has yet to be sent. Tonight, Cabellero and Alvarez
remain in a Florida jail.

So, serious question, what should the punishment be for having sex on
the beach? And should they have to register as sex offenders for the rest
of their lives. That discussion – nice graphic, by the way, folks. That
discussion is next.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 8 On Your Side spoke exclusively with the cop
who caught the couple on Cortez Beach last summer having sex in front of

UNIDENIFIED MALE: Very surprised that somebody would be that bold on
a public beach,
especially with people around.

UNIDENITIFIED MALE: 40-year-old Jose Cabellero and 20-year-old Elissa
Alvarez claimed they were cuddling and wrestling that day. But this video
sealed the dirty deal.


HAYES: All right.

That dirty deal has now led to two people in jail, facing possibly 15
years in prison and registering as sex offenders.

Is that right? Is that fair?

Joining me now to discuss this, I have with me, author and legal
analyst Lisa Green, and Jordan
Carlos, my friend, writer for the Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore.

JORDAN CARLOS, WRITER: This is correct.

HAYES: Congrats on that gig, man. You guys are doing a great job.

CARLOS: Thank you.

HAYES: I`m loving it.

So, OK – so actually – obviously, this is a funny story, people have
drunken sex on the beach, everyone saw it. There`s like a YouTube. Like,
it`s funny.

CARLOS: People do this.

HAYES: That is part of it, right. I mean, not, I think – so let me
just start with this. I think it`s a bad thing to do this, what this
couple did, they shouldn`t have done it, and there should be some sanction
for it.

But, like – Lisa, 15 years seems outrageous.

LISA GREEN, LEGAL ANALYST; Just as a caveat, they did not teach me
this in law school. So I just want to send that out.

They`re going a little rogue here. But it`s a serious crime, sex
crimes in Florida. This is caught up in a statute that creates liability
for much more serious behavior, right?

I know if this couple knew what the consequences would be, it would
have considerably cooled their ardor on that sand.

HAYES: OK, right. Because I was doing some research today, and…

Let`s just keep that shot up the whole time.

CARLOS: Nice. Really…

HAYES: No, I mean, you can understand why a guy might, you know, want
to just show off a
little bit.

CARLOS: I think a lot of it is jealousy, though. I mean, apparently,
they were doing what they were doing for a long time and then somebody is
like, this is criminal!

HAYES: This has been going on too long. You crossed the line.

No, but in terms of the lewd and lascivious thing, that is the statute
that, like, people doing
super-creepy things like flashing. That`s what you get prosecuted under.
That`s what that statute is designed for.

The other thing, Jordan, that struck me about, this is another object
lesson in the way the criminal justice system works is, you get nabbed, you
get offered a plea, and if you don`t get a plea, you are going to get

CARLOS: Take that…

Watch your words! Watch your words!

But, yes. We`re going All In on Chris Hayes.

But, honest, I feel like sex on the beach is punishment enough. I
know that. It`s not all that it`s cracked up to be, and there`s sand if
places you didn`t think there would be sand.

HAYES: So you think they`ve suffered enough?

CARLOS: I think they`ve suffered enough. I think they really have.

HAYES: But if you do – so let`s say what the prosecutor obviously
here is saying, like, don`t –
we`re not going to try to give them 15 years.

GREEN: No, but the prosecutor wants to send a message to the good
people of Florida. And that message is…

CARLOS: The good people of…

GREEN: …get a room.

HAYES: Right. OK, so everyone understands that message. My point
here, though, is, so let`s say whatever they get. I think we – do we
agree like some community service. Like, they should not go to jail for

CARLOS: They should not go to jail for this.

HAYES: Can we agree that these people should not go to jail for this?

GREEN: They`re already sitting in jail for this. I`m doubting the
relationship is improving as they both sit in jail, I`m thinking that.

Can I just make one more point about Mother`s Day, because, you know,
it`s Sunday.

Here`s a fantastic example of how great mothers are. The grandmother
in this case, you know, the 3-year-old who witnessed something that you
don`t want your kids to see, took the kid away, the great-grandmother
videotapes the entire thing for evidence, right. I don`t know about your
great-grandmothers, if mine were around, she would be like, what are you
looking at?

CARLOS: I have to say this, though, like, she taped the whole thing.
Like, when did she turn that tape over to police? Like, when she was done.

HAYES: This was clearly a spectacle. I mean, this was not – this
was a real spectacle. In fact, it`s funny, the 911 call, the woman is
mostly concerned they`re going to get in a car and drive, because they`re
so drunk. So actually the initial complaint isn`t even, you know, that…

GREEN: By the way, isn`t this what the people of Bay Watch were
supposed to do, like instead of policing?

HAYES: This is the other point I would make, right, is that in terms
of when we think about the law and when it`s applied, like, people have had
public sex in this country and not faced 15 years in prison, right? This
was a particular flagrant example of it.

But, you know, it gets to this point of, like, you are at every
moment, and not that you`re always having sex on the beach or anyone`s
always having sex on the beach, maybe some people are, but at any moment,
you`re breaking some law, whether you`re jay-walking or walking down the
middle of the street, like you can always find some infraction, the
question is like how hard the law is brought down on you, and it gets back
to this idea, Lisa, to this idea that the way prosecution in this country
works is, you get offered the plea and if you don`t take it, then you get
something like this.

GREEN: Prosecutors don`t like wasting their time, wasting a judge`s

HAYES: …on something like this.

GREEN: Especially on a case like this.

HAYES: Your being punished for wasting time.

GREEN: But you know in fairness, look at the amount of evidence. You
have got a great-grandmother testifying. I know what I saw, right?

HAYES: That`s why they were convicted in 15 minutes.

GREEN: The defense attorney doing his best in a “Better Call Saul”
move, said, they were nudging each other.

CARLOS: Didn`t she say, she was trying to wake him up in which…

HAYES: And cuddling.

CARLOS: It`s like, like, I wish I got woken up every day like that.
I have to say – mine`s a boring iPhone alarm.

HAYES: Here`s the other part of this – the other part of their
problem is, they`ll have to
register for sex offenders for life, which also strikes me as insane.

I want to show this for a second. These are the states in which
people can be put on sex
offenders list for peeing in public. This is a real thing. There are
states that you can be put on a sex offender list for peeing in public.
There are states in which people are on sex offender lists for consensual
sexual relationships when they`re under age and when someone is under age.
So I`m 17, my girlfriend or boyfriend is 16, we have sex, the parents
complain, we might be found – I mean, and sex
offender lists, let`s just be clear, Lisa, that`s life. That doesn`t go
away. That`s for the rest of your life.

GREEN: And it`s where you work. It`s where you live, and then it`s
just, it`s on the internet and everyone…

HAYES: It`s on a television station in Florida. There`s a – someone
told me this, a part-time Florida resident that I know, told me there`s a
station in Florida that`s like a public access station that`s
just pictures of the sex offenders.

GREEN: And there are people watching it, I guarantee.

CARLOS: This is like worse than some venereal diseases. This is
terrible. It is not going away.

HAYES: That is sort of the point, right. The point is that these
people are ashamed forever. I don`t know. I don`t think we`re quite
getting the balance right.

Lisa Green and Jordan Carlos, thank you for your time.

That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow show starts right


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