All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 05/06/15

Tom Perez, David Feige, Bernie Sanders, Dave Zirin, Kevitha Davidson, Katrina Vanden Heuvel


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN –

need the assistance of the department of justice and the civil rights

HAYES: The mayor of Baltimore calls for a federal investigation into
her city`s police force – as the police begin pushing back on the Freddie
Gray charges.

Then, as Hillary Clinton tacks left, my interview with presidential
candidate, Bernie Sanders.

And what exactly is Bill de Blasio up to with a new manifesto for

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D), NEW YORK CITY: I think there is a earning
for a set of solutions.

HAYES: Plus, the state that banned banning fracking.

And the deflategate report is out. It looks bad for Tom Brady. So,
what does the NFL do now?

saying that nobody did it, as far as I know. I don`t know everything.

HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

Baltimore, tonight, is officially, legally back to normal. Though
that doesn`t mean anything has been fixed.

Earlier today, Maryland Governor Larry Hogan lifted the state of
emergency he imposed on Baltimore nine days ago after protests following
Gray`s funeral turned violent.


GOV. LARRY HOGAN (D), MARYLAND: Now is the time for us to come
together and to focus on solutions. We must also look to turn the corner
and work together to make important strides to heal our communities and to
begin to address the many long-term problems and issues.


HAYES: Also, CBS corporate just announced it will rebuild the
Baltimore locations that with severely damaged after rioting last week, one
of which later became the site of community celebrations and peaceful

And tickets just went on sale for a benefit concert set to take place
on Sunday. Prince is performing at Baltimore`s Royal Farms Arena where he
is expected to debut a new song dedicated to the city.

But even as Baltimore begins to heal, officials acknowledge the city
has a long way to go to tackle the issues exposed over the past few weeks.
Today, Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake formerly asked the Justice Department
to open a pattern and practice investigation into the Baltimore Police
Department, the same kind of wide-ranging civil rights inquiry done in


RAWLINGS-BLAKE: I will make sure that whatever they find, we need to
do to repair the relationship with the community and have a department that
our citizens deserve. I`m determined to get that done.


HAYES: Spokesperson for Attorney General Loretta Lynch who visited
Baltimore said she is actively considering the mayor`s request.

Two more cabinets came to town today, Labor Secretary Thomas Perez and
Education Secretary Arne Duncan, who talked about job training funds for
young people in Baltimore.

Joining me now is Secretary of Labor Tom Perez.

Secretary Perez, let me start with this.


HAYES: You are not at DOJ. Now, you were head of the civil rights
division there previously. Obviously, you can`t comment on the specifics
of this request or whether it will be granted. But you can describe what
this looks like. You oversaw them when you were at the DOJ.

What does it look like? What does a pattern and practice inquiry from
the DOJ look like?

PEREZ: Well, we were involved in quite a few of those during my
tenure. It is a soup to nuts, look, getting at the root causes of whatever
the situation may be.

So, in New Orleans, for instance, we were looking at use of force. We
were looking at arrests. We were looking at a wide panoply of concerns
that were brought to our attention. The process of our investigation
involved literally over 100 community meetings.

We engaged experts, because the pattern and practice statute was
enacted in the aftermath of the Rodney King riots, the crime bill of `94.
And it`s designed to get at root causes. It`s designed to address system
changes. And we`ve used it at the Department of Justice very successfully
over the years to change culture in Los Angeles, for instance, to address
issues in Portland, Oregon, involving use of force against people with
mental health issues, Seattle, New Orleans, and a number of other cities.

It can be a very effective tool. And when you have cooperation from a
city and from a department, it makes it that much more easy to do.

And I met with the mayor today on the issues that we`re working on at
the Department of Labor involving the opportunity gaps and the need to
provide access to better job opportunities and educational opportunities.
And she`s been nothing but cooperative.

And she, to my understanding, has certainly been working closely with
the Department of Justice, because, you know, communities work best when
you have effective law enforcement agencies and when you have access to
opportunities. Zip code should never determine destiny. The issues we are
working on at the Department of Labor involve getting at some of these root

HAYES: Yes, let me ask you about that. Zip code should never
determine destiny, which I think is a statement that a lot of Americans
would agree with as a principle. It seems almost inarguable that that`s
the case. And yet, you know, here we are here in America in which it does
determine destiny a tremendous amount. We have data to bring that back.

I mean, what realistically can the Department of Labor, can the White
House, can the federal government do about the fact that your life is going
to look a lot different, the odds are very different, of what neighborhood
in Baltimore you are born into?

PEREZ: Well, as we`ve all discussed today, we had a tremendously
compelling set of meetings, not only with the mayor but with faith leaders,
with young people and with philanthropy business leaders. I learned so

And as you probably know, Chris, I worked in Baltimore for the better
part of a decade. I was working in communities. This issue, frankly, is
very personal for me because I`m a huge fan of Baltimore. And Baltimore is
a resilient town. They know how to take a punch.

What we discussed today was we need to come together and make sure
that everybody is on the same page. We have a tendency, not only, you
know, in the federal government but in many places to operate in silos. We
need to bust those silos because we need everyone working together.

And we have committed federal funds through a demonstration grant
authority that we have. I said to them today, our goal is to get these
funds to the city as soon as we can, but it has to be part of a broader
plan. We need to make sure it is sustainable, it is successful and that in
order to do that, we have to listen.

And so, I spent most of my day, today, listening. And we`re going to
spend most of the weeks ahead listening, because what I learned the most
today, Chris, from young people, I don`t think we listen enough to them.
They have such hopes and dreams in the city of Baltimore and elsewhere, but
we just don`t listen enough.

So, that – we have to bring a sense of humility to this enterprise.
Baltimore has a lot of assets. There have been a lot of success stories in
Baltimore`s development. And, unfortunately, your listeners only see the
events of the last two weeks.

There`s been dramatic developments of a positive variety literally a
mile south from Ground Zero. Dramatic developments of a positive variety
near Johns Hopkins, which is an anchor, employer and educator.

At the same time, we need new plays in the playbook. We need a new
normal in Baltimore, because some of the things that have been done over
the years have worked. Some haven`t. And what we have to do is scale
what`s worked and fix what hasn`t worked and put new tools in the tool box.

HAYES: New normal seems like a good motto going forward.

Secretary Tom Perez, thank you very much.

PEREZ: Always a pleasure.

HAYES: All right. A lawyer for one of the Baltimore police officers
charged in the death of Freddie Gray is already challenging a key premise
behind some of the charges against him. Now, when she announced those
charges last week, state`s attorney, Marilyn Mosby, laid out, it was
illegal in the first place.


Nero then placed Mr. Gray in a seated position and subsequently found a
knife clipped to the inside of his pants pocket. The blade of the knife
was folded into the handle. The knife was not a switchblade and is lawful
under Maryland law.

Lt. Rice, Officer Miller and Officer Nero failed to establish probable
cause for Mr. Gray`s arrest, as no crime had been committed by Mr. Gray.
Accordingly, Lt. Rice, Officer Miller, and Officer Nero illegally arrested
Mr. Gray.


HAYES: All right. So, legal knife, illegal arrest. Three of the
arresting officers, Lieutenant Brian Rice, Officer Garrett Miller and
Officer Edward Nero were charged with multiple counts of second-degree
assault, misconduct in office and false imprisonment.

But one of those, Edward Nero, is now insisting Gray`s knife was
illegal. And his lawyer filed a mention in district court to inspect that
crucial piece of evidence. While both the state of Maryland and the city
of Baltimore outlaws switch blades, which open at the push of a button,
Baltimore takes it a step further, that is the city, making it illegal to,
quote, “sell, carry or possess any knife with an automatic spring or other
device for opening and/or closing the blade.”

The state`s attorney responded in a statement, quote, “While the
evidence we have obtained through our independent investigation does
substantiate the elements of the charges filed, I refuse to litigate this
case through the media. The evidence we have collected cannot ethically be
disclosed, relayed or released to the public before trial.”

I talked to former public defender David Feige, now a professor at the
National Criminal Defense College, about what he thought of this back and


just take a moment to talk about why we are paying so much attention to the
fact that all of the sudden, when it`s police whose defense attorneys are
speaking, we`re like, let`s investigate this defense, right? You know,
this happens all the time. When somebody gets arrested and the defense
lawyer says, actually, he is not guilty, and he`s generally met with
deafening silence. But OK.

Let`s talk about this – here is the thing. What they are not talking
about is the little bit about chasing, right? We can go to town all day
long about whether it is or whether it isn`t. and, by the way, these knife
statutes can be a little bit vague. And so, sometimes it is hard to tell
whether something is or isn`t. And that, by the way, is called a matter of
fact, matters of fact are decided by, guess what, juries.

HAYES: Right.

FEIGE: So, the whole point is, we have one side saying one thing,
another side saying another thing. What that means is: let`s go have a

HAYES: So, let me ask you this. The chasing is something that we
have been debating. I have been talking to lawyer friends. My wife is a

FEIGE: Sure.

HAYES: So, can you clear up something for me? I was trying to figure
this out and going through what the Supreme Court has said. My
understanding is the Supreme Court has ruled that if you run from the
police, you are walking down the street, you make eye contact with the
police and you dart, which is essentially according to the police the way
this started, they then have probable cause to chase you.

Is that correct?

FEIGE: Well, no, not probable cause but maybe reasonable suspicion.

HAYES: I see. Right.

FEIGE: There are all these different levels, each of which has this
sort of idea behind it. Now, of course, I personally find that the
question of, he looked at me funny or he didn`t look how I looked at him so
he left or ran – I find those things a little questionable. I frankly
don`t think you need to return an officer`s gaze. And, frankly, I don`t
think the cops should have the right to go after you just because they
don`t like how you are looking at them.

Whether or not it is reasonable suspicion, yes, the Supreme Court has
said in certain instances, when somebody runs from the police, it`s
reasonable suspicion to chase them.

HAYES: To pursue them.

OK. So, then we are sort of ascending the scale of the charges,
right? When we get to depraved heart homicide, right, which is the most
serious, can you explain what that charge is?

FEIGE: A depraved heart?


FEIGE: Sure.

HAYES: What does prosecution have to show?

FEIGE: It is a depraved indifference to human life. And the best way
to show it is it is designed for cases that are so egregious that they
constitute murder, but the conduct wasn`t really sort of shooting or
stabbing somebody. The best example, you are driving along a freezing
road. You throw somebody in a snow bank in the middle of nowhere and drive
away and they freeze to death.

HAYES: Right.

FEIGE: OK? That`s the kind of depraved indifference to human life.
It is so obvious that they are going to die. Let`s assume you throw them
in naked and not in a parka, right?

HAYES: Right.

FEIGE: You strip somebody down, you throw them naked in a snow bank
and you drive away – they`re going to freeze to death. And that conduct
evinces a depraved indifference to human life and when you do that, you are
as guilty as if you shot or stab somebody intentionally.

HAYES: So, the state is what – basically the state in making that
case is going to basically have to show that in this case, the driver of
that van, who is the person who has been charged with this, essentially had
to have known that something horrible was happening to Freddie Gray and
failed to do anything about it?

FEIGE: Well, it`s interesting. Sort of – we`ve got to play with the
had to have known of it all –

HAYES: Right.

FEIGE: Right? Or was smart enough to know that it`s so obvious that
when you handcuff somebody and throw anymore in the back of the van and
give them a rough ride or slam on the brakes or accelerate quickly, and
they are sliding around in the back, that bad things will happen.

HAYES: Right.

FEIGE: That`s pretty much enough. And so, there`s all these levels.

Do you want to talk about recklessness, too, and sort of interaction

HAYES: Sure, yes. Talk about recklessness, yes.

FEIGE: Yes. It`s kind of interesting. So, depraved indifference is
the worst, right? And then, there is recklessness which has to do with
perceiving a threat and ignoring it or not perceiving a threat that you
should have perceived, right? And that`s sort of we`re doing these weird
fine gradations, because in the law, you kind of have to define your way to
how bad a crime is. And that`s what they are sort of trying to do with

HAYES: David Feige, laying it out. Always, always very elucidating.
Thank you very much.

FEIGE: My pleasure. Great to see you, Chris.


HAYES: Up next, as Hillary Clinton tacks left, we`ll talk with the
only other Democratic candidate currently running against her.

Then, why did the New York mayor just announce a Contract with America
for progressives?

And the official deflategate report is out. And let me tell you, it
doesn`t look so good for quarterback Tom Brady. We`ll give you the
details, ahead.


HAYES: Elizabeth Warren is once again denying that she`ll run for
president in 2016. This after “Politico” reported on a private meeting
Warren attended with progressives including some with ties to a Draft
Warren group dedicated to convincing her to change her mind and get in the

Attendees said the Draft Warren movement was not discussed and
Warren`s office says the senator did not know that anyone she met with was
associated with it. That said, I will talk with a progressive who actually
is running for president against Hillary Clinton. He joins me, next.


HAYES: At a round table with high school students yesterday in
Nevada, Hillary Clinton outlined a position on immigration that delighted
immigrant rights activists. Clinton didn`t just offer a clear and an
unequivocal support for a path to full citizenship for undocumented
immigrants, she went further than that, saying that as president, she would
do everything she legally can to help them.

She put herself, in fact, to the left of President Obama, promising to
expand his executive order of protecting so-called DREAMers from
deportation, to include the parents of undocumented immigrants brought to
you U.S. as children as well, even though the Obama Justice Department has
indicated it views such a move as illegal.


like many parents of DREAMers and others, with deep ties and contributions
to our communities who deserve a chance to stay, and I will fight for them.


HAYES: This is not the only issue where Hillary Clinton has staked
out a position on the left, on tax rates, criminal justice reform and other
issues. Clinton has sought to align herself in the early goings, with the
liberal base of her party. Just this morning, her campaign manager Robby
Mook indicated she supported the push for debt-free college education.

Now, if Clinton seems to be acting like she is facing a primary
challenge from the left, that may be because – well, she is facing a
primary challenge from the left. There are currently two declared
candidates in the race for Democratic presidential nomination – the other
being Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders.

And despite the long odds Sanders would seem to face against Clinton
who boasts high name recognition and strong connections to donors and party
leaders, Sanders who only announced his campaign last Friday has had a very
good first week. “Huffington Post” reported he`s raised $3 million in just
four days. He has brought in a crew of former aides to President Obama to
help with his campaign.

Today, he unveiled legislation to break up big banks, drawing at least
an implicit contrast with Clinton who some progressives view as too closely
aligned with the financial sector.

Also today, Sanders sent a letter to President Obama asking him to
cancel a trip to Nike headquarters. Quote, “Given Nike`s legacy of
offshoring American jobs and exploiting low wage workers.”

And joining me now is Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders, candidate for

All right. Senator, let`s start with immigration reform. Do you –
if – as president, would you take the same position enunciated by Hillary
Clinton yesterday in terms of executive action to protect the parents of
those people who were brought here as children who were protected in the
president`s first executive action?

is absolutely. And I applaud the secretary for taking that position.

Look, I voted and fought for immigration reform, voted for the Senate
passage of that legislation. We have 11 million people in this country
living in the shadows, living in fear. That`s got to end. We need a path
towards citizenship for all of those people.

And the best way forward, of course, is legislation rather than
executive action, but I certainly would go forward with that type of
executive action.

HAYES: OK. Not to – I don`t want to tarry on this too long. But
you and now – you and now Secretary Clinton are endorsing a position that
the Department of Justice Office of Legal Counsel has rejected as unlawful,
just to be clear here. I mean, did they get it wrong?

SANDERS: Look, the courts are the people who determine what is legal
or not. And I think what you need is an administration that fights for
justice, fights for what`s right, takes the case to the courts and you do
your best to win that case.

HAYES: You introduced a bill today to break up too big to fail banks.
Is this an area of differentiation between you and Secretary Clinton?

SANDERS: Well, I suspect it is. But what`s most important, we have
to deal with the reality that you`ve got six financial institutions in this
country that have assets equivalent to 60 percent of the GDP in America.
They issue about half of the mortgages and one-third of the credit cards in
this country.

And in my view, if a financial institution is, quote/unquote, “too big
to fail”, it should be too big to exist. I think if Teddy Roosevelt, a
good Republican, were here today, he would say, break them up. They simply
have too much power. They are an island unto themselves. They are not
doing good service for the American economy.

HAYES: You, I think, are seen by progressives as a fellow
progressive. You have an identity that`s very associated with the liberal
wing of the Democratic Party.

I want to talk about your stance on guns. “Slate” had a headline,
“Bernie Sanders, Gun Nut”. They go through your record. They talk about
how you voted against the Brady Act. How you voted to allow guns on
checked bags on Amtrak. How you`ve actually gotten fairly high scores from
the NRA.

Are you, in fact, Senator, a gun nut?

SANDERS: Well, actually, if you check it out, the last rating I got
from the NRA to the best of my knowledge was an “F”, was an “F”. That
doesn`t quite make me a gun nut.

In my state of Vermont, we are a very rural state where guns are about
hunting, target practice, antique guns, and we have a pretty low crime
rate. I do believe, obviously, that nationally, guns in Baltimore and guns
in Los Angeles are very different. I have voted against the importation of
assault weapons. And I understand not every part of America is the state
of Vermont.

HAYES: There is a big controversy brewing over the Trans Pacific
Partnership, specifically Congress giving “fast track” authority to the
executive, to be able to essentially strike the deal and vote on it in
full. Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta was asked how the campaign,
the Clinton campaign, would deal with the trade deal. He joked, “Can you
make it go away?” Which I thought was a pretty funny line actually.

You have been an outspoken opponent to it. Do you want to respond to
Podesta`s joke there?

SANDERS: Yes, John. It ain`t going to go away. In fact, we`re going
to be voting on it fairly soon.

Look, ever since I have been in the Congress, what I have understood
is that all of these trade agreements, NAFAT, CAFTA, permanent normal trade
relations with China and now the TPP – these are proposals that by and
large are being pushed by corporate America, they`re being pushed by Wall
Street, they`re being pushed by the pharmaceutical industry.

Since 2001, Chris, we have lost almost 60,000 factories in America,
millions of decent paying jobs. Trade is not the only reason for the
deindustrialization of America. It has played an important part.

In terms of TPP, I do not want American workers involved in a race to
the bottom, competing against people in Vietnam where the minimum wage is
56 cents an hour. We need a trade policy which helps poor people around
the world, but you can do that without losing millions of jobs in this
country or driving wages down.

HAYES: All right. Senator Sanders, there`s a lot more I wanted to
ask you, including your brother`s campaign in England right now and the
Green Party. We`re going to have to save that for – someone told me about
it today and I said, what? But we`re going to have to save that for the
next time that you and I talk. You`ll be on the campaign trail, so there
will be lots of opportunities.


HAYES: Thank you.

SANDERS: Great. Thank you.

HAYES: All right. As he begins a new progressive Contract with
America, just what exactly is New York Mayor Bill de Blasio up to? That`s



DE BLASIO: I think the world of Hillary. I have worked with and for
her in years. The bottom line here is that we are at a moment in history
where we need to hear a clear vision for addressing the economic reality.


HAYES: The first few weeks of Hillary Clinton`s presidential
campaign, New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio, former campaign manager for
Hillary Clinton, has inserted himself into the national conversation about
her candidacy, declining to endorse Clinton, appearing to position himself
as someone who can keep her honest when it comes to progressive principles.
It is part of a larger national profile that the mayor of New York is very
pointedly constructing for himself.

Today, he is featured in a big “Rolling Stones” story that puts
himself at the center of a national liberal movement. And next Tuesday, at
the U.S. Capitol, De Blasio plans to unveil a 13-point progressive agenda
modeled on Newt Gingrich`s Contract with America and designed to combat
income inequality, which reportedly includes universal pre-k, a $15 minimum
wage, and paid family leave.

It was developed in part at a closed door meeting of national
progressive thought leaders and elected officials. And his advisers say
more than 60 big names have already signed on including prominent members
of congress, labor leaders and celebrity activists.


BILL DE BLASIO, MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: I disagree with Newt Gingrich
on many things, but in 1994, he put forward a Contract with America. It
had a crystallizing effect for his party and for conservatives. It was a
clear, sharp set of ideas about how to change America, in my view in the
wrong direction, but as an organization tool, it was very effective.


HAYES: So what exactly is Bill de Blasio up to? Joining me now
Katrina Vanden Heuvel, editor and publisher of The Nation who was at the
closed door meeting with Mayor de Blasio early last month.

What`s going on here?

KATRINA VANDEN HEUVEL, THE NATION: I mean, Mayor de Blasio believes
that economic inequality is the crisis of our times. And when he was
elected mayor, running as an economic populist, running as a Democrat with
a spine, speaking in bold ways, he showed that that is winning politics and
you can win campaigns.

So, he became a national figure as soon as he was elected mayor of New
York City. My joke is that on the reporter keys you have a key that has
Elizabeth Warren, Bill de Blasio. We are in a populist moment. He
understands that. So, he has become the kind of central place where –
I`ve said to the mayor one thing I think he could do that is very
important, and you have this agenda which is going to be unveiled, I think
it`s also a moment where you have mayors around this country, populist
mayors from Seattle, to Boston, to Minneapolis and New York City to lift a
bar of mayors to speak to a new kind of economic populism.

But he is a fighter within the Democratic Party, because you know
there is a battle being waged between the kind of Wall Street wing…

HAYES: OK, so you put your finger on what I think the fundamental lay
of the land here is and where this fits. I just talked to Bernie Sanders,

It is very hard to find a precedent for Hillary Clinton and the role
she plays as a sort of front-runner who is a nonincumbent. She is as close
to essentially an incumbent as you get, right.

At the same time, you have a active progressive base in the party.
You have a lot of issues that would seem to favor the sort of liberal
progressive base of the party but there is this kind of vacuum, right,
there is this sort of mismatch between the kind of behemoth that is Hillary
Clinton and a lot of the energy that is roiling up in the Democratic base.

HEUVEL: I disagree. I don`t think there is a disconnect anymore. I
think you see each day Hillary Clinton being pushed and moved by the
populist movements in this moment. And I think that is part of what the
mayor is trying to do with this agenda, because he sees it as another kind
of strike in the 2016 and beyond to move someone like Hillary Clinton, to
move her in the debate and dialogue around economic inequality. And there
are a lot of other groups, by the way. I mean, the campaign for America`s
future with national people`s action last week, Roosevelt Institute with
Joseph Stiglitz and Elizabeth Warren next week. Bill de Blasio is going to
be part of that. It`s called rewriting the rules.

So all of this – look, Mayor Cuomo in New York state.

HAYES: Governor Cuomo, yes.

HEUVEL: I`m sorry, Governor Cuomo.

HAYES: Just has an op-ed today…

HEUVEL: Just announced that he is going to convene the wage board to
look at increasing wages for fast food workers. You can ask why? And you
can also look at Mayor de Blasio who has not had the easiest relationship
with Governor Cuomo. But he, Mayor de Blasio, in unveiling this contract
agenda and in what he has been pushing forward, saying to Democrats you
need a spine. You need to be bolder. If you want turnout, energy and to
stand as the identifiable party with working people,
middle class people, we need to remember what the Democratic Party stood

And we sit here, it`s two years…

HAYES: It is a fascinating moment.

HEUVEL: When he stood – when he burst on the scene and the nation
endorsed him because of his commitment to tackling the economic inequality
in this city – this city has already seen what this agenda is laying out,
pre-k, living wage for 20,000 families and paid sick leave.

I mean, these are the basics. Even Joe Scarborough on this network
this morning said, hey, that could be part of something conservatives said.

Now, the agenda the major has put forward is also calling for a
bipartisan forum with different candidates. And so we have to watch the
Republicans who, by the way, are also moved in their kind of conservative
populist – they talked the talk.

HAYES: What`s fascinating here is we have this moment in which the
Democratic Party is trying to define what its post Obamaness will look
like. And it has this singular figure in Hillary Clinton and the massive
sort of influence she has. She has – it has this grassroots and set of
issues that seem ripe for the taking, I mean, both substances and

And it is interesting the role that de Blasio is setting out for
himself on that.

HEUVEL: But he`s also very – in his Cooper Union speech, his first
speech as mayor, he said very clearly that his administration comes out of
the movements. And so I think any leader today has to be aware of the
movements in the street.

HAYES: Ask those movements who get pushed off the street by the New
York City PD the other day during that protest.

HEUVEL: No, we have disagreements. No, we have disagreements, and
that`s why the movements need to stay on the mayor and also on the
governor. It is a testament to the power of the fast food workers
organizing that they may get…

HAYES: Governor Cuomo, go look it up, just posted to the New York

Katrina Vanden Heuvel, my friend, my boss, always a pleasure. Thank

HAYES: All right, up next, the attempt to ban a ban on fracking in
Denton, Texas. The mayor of that city joins me next.


HAYES: The town of Denton, Texas. There are many as 280 active
natural gas wells, many of those well have been used for fracking, that`s a
technique that involves pumping millions of gallons of a mixture of water,
chemicals and sand into rock formations deep underground.

And according to energy reporter Jim Malowitz, those Denton gas wells,
quote, sit near homes, schools, even across the street from the stadium
where the university of North Texas`s Mean Green plays football.

And Denton t is on the edge of the Barnett shale, the largest source
of natural gas in the state of Texas, which stretches 5,000 square miles
beneath more than a dozen counties.

And given all this, there was enough concern in the Denton community
that residents of Denton voted last November on Texas`s first ban on

But the Texas legislature now appears to be on the verge of banning
the banning of fracking, that`s right, a bill that would undercut any local
Texas laws banning fracking has now passed through the Republican
controlled legislature and has been sent to the state`s Republican Governor
Greg Abbott who is expected to sign it.

Joining me now the Mayor of Denton, Texas Chris Watts. Mayor Watts,
why did you guys down there decide to ban fracking?

CHRIS WATTS, MAYOR OF DENTON, TEXAS: Well, Chris, that was an
interesting phenomenon. Basically, we had a situation where we passed an
ordinance in 2013 that increased the setbacks for oil and gas wells from
residential neighborhoods and protected uses. Well, right after that, a
few months after that, an operator was coming in to rework a well and to
redrill a new well that violated that particular setback, and because of a
legal doctrine of vested rights in the state of
Texas, basically our ordinance didn`t apply was the claim, and so the
residents that was sort of it for the residents and they banned together
and obtained 2,000 signatures and pursuant to our charter, they presented
us with a petition initiative referendum to ban with an ordinance to ban
hydraulic fracturing and they got the required signatures, brought it
before the city council.

The city council denied the ordinance as far as accepting it at this
council level in order to send it to the vote of the citizens, because this
was citizen-initiated and it really should have been citizen decided and it
was in November about 59 percent to 41 percent.

HAYES: So, let me get this straight. You guy first, you start with a
sort of measure that just limits fracking. And then, the gas companies
come back and say, well, actually, we can override your limit, which then
precipitates the citizens today, oh, no, no, no, OK, fine. If that`s the
way you are going to play, we are just going to ban you outright. Passes
all Denton.

Now, you have got the governor and the Texas state legislature
basically telling you, Denton, can`t do that. What do you think of that?

WATTS: Well, Chris, we sort of expected something. I mean, the
morning after November the
4th, probably at 8:00, we had two lawsuits filed against us from the Texas
general land office and Texas oil and gas association. We anticipated
that. And with the legislature coming into session shortly thereafter the
vote, we also anticipated some legislation that may limit our ability to
enforce or for that
ban to even be active?

HAYES: So what do you think of it? I mean, is this the right thing
for the state of Texas to reach down to a municipality whose citizens have
decided they want to be governed a certain way and tell them they can`t do

WATTS: Well, I tell you, it is a very interesting issue. I know at
the city level as mayor, I`m charged with protecting the health, safety and
welfare of our citizens. The citizens voted to ban the process of
hydraulic fracturing. The state legislature picked it up and decided that
the oil and gas industry in Texas has an overriding interest.

I think the attempt was to try to balance mineral interests with
surface right interests. Of course, in the state of Texas, mineral
interests are dominant. In other words, they sort of trump surface
interests. So in some ways, people began to see that this ban was a way to
sort of take away individual
property rights of the mineral owners. But for me, it is really a more
narrow issue of urban drilling.

There is a lot of drilling that goes on in the state of Texas. But
this new urban drilling is a new phenomenon that really does, I think,
require some additional measures to protect the health and safety of the
citizens, and also the nuisance values of light and noise and truck.

I had a gentlemen call me during the campaign at 10:00 at night,
because his house was lit up like a football field, as he said, because
they were doing work. And it just was untenable for them to get some kind
of quality of life.

HAYES: Yeah, natural gas fracking extraction brings into urban
centers and residential areas things that had formerly not been in those
residential centers.

And Oklahoma has got the same page out of the Texas playbook.
Lawmakers there trying to ban fracking bans as well. So, you guys are
going to be an interesting test case. Denton Mayor Chris Watts, thank you
joining us. I really appreciate it.

WATTS: Thank you.

HAYES: All right. Up next, what the NFL investigation says Tom Brady
actually knew about the deliberate deflating of his footballs.


TOM BRADY, NEW ENGLAND PATRIOT: I have no knowledge of anything. I
have no knowledge of any wrongdoing. I`m very comfortable saying that.



HAYES: Cautionary tale tonight for sporting event mascots whatever
field they roam. This is Super Leo, the club mascot for Austria Vienna
soccer team, apparently soused. He had been out celebrating his 42nd
birthday just before the match. And though his team won their game, Super
Leo lost his battle against gravity. Club officials and paramedics
repeatedly trying to help him back on his feet.

And that is not even the worst story in sports tonight. Tom Brady and
ballgazi next.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You want me to lose weight?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I don`t want you to lose weight.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. We can`t legally ask you to do that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We didn`t say lose weight. I might say tighten.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A little tighter.


HAYES: A little tighter.

That scene from the movie Knocked Up is more or less how I`ve always
imagined the conversation went down at Foxboro. And no one said, hey, go
illegally deflate a few game balls for me, but maybe when someone gave a
little nudge and say I wouldn`t say you shouldn`t legally deflate the
balls. I might say they should be more grippable.

Well, today we learned the outcome of a nearly four months
investigation into the controversy better known as deflategate. The
finding: two New England Patriots employees probably deflated some
footballs on purpose. And quarterback Tom Brady was probably aware of it.

The whole thing started back in January at the AFC championship game
where the Patriots they faced the Indianapolis Colts and whipped them 45-7
to advance the Super Bowl.

It was later revealed that 11 out of 12 game balls used by Brady and
his offense were found to be underinflated in violation of NFL rules.
Brady was forced to address the controversy during the run-up to the Super
Bowl. And he denied any wrongdoing.


BRADY: I have always played within the rule. I would never do
anything to break the rules. I believe in fair play and respect the league
and everything they are doing to try to create a very competitive playing
field for all the NFL teams.


HAYES: Today, an NFL investigation led by attorney Ted Wells found it
is more probable than not that Tom Brady was at least generally aware – a
lot of hedge words there – of the inappropriate activities involving
Patriots personnel and game balls.

A report found that Jim McNally, locker attendant and John Jastremski,
an equipment assistant,
participated in a deliberate effort to release air from Patriots game balls
after the balls were examined by the referee. The report also reveals a
series of text messages between McNally and Jastremski often discussing Tom
Brady`s persistent frustration with the inflation level of the game balls.

McNally even referring to himself as the deflator in one exchange.

According to a report, a number of texts and phone calls between
Jastremski and Tom Brady himself occurred in late January when the
controversy began.

Brady texting, “you good, Johnny boy, you doing good?” Jeastremski`s
reply, “still nervous. So
far, so good, though.”

The report also states that no other Patriots personnel, including
head coach, Bill Belichick, were aware of any wrongdoing.

Today, Patriots owner Robert Kraft issued a response saying the
organization is disappointed by the report. While NFL commissioner Roger
Goodell said the league will consider taking disciplinary action. Quote,
“we will continue our efforts vigorously to protect the integrity of the
game and promote fair play at all times.”

So, what should the NFL do about it? What will they do about it?
That`s the debate coming up next.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you answer right now? Is Tom Brady a cheater?

BRADY: I don`t believe so. I mean, I feel like I have always played
within the rules. I would never do anything to break the rules.

I have no knowledge of anything. I have no knowledge of any

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: …nobody did anything wrong…

BRADY: Yeah, I am very comfortable saying that. I am very
comfortable saying that nobody did it, as far as I know. I don`t know
everything. I also understand that I, you know, was in the locker room
preparing for a game. I don`t know what happened over the course of the
process with the footballs.


HAYES: Tom Brady showing what happens when handsome meets guilty as

Joining me now, Dave Zirin, sports editor for The Nation. Kavitha
Davidson, sports columnist at Bloomberg.

OK, first, we are going to talk about what the league should do. But
before we do that, David, I will start with you. Obviously, Brady knew. I
mean, I`m going to sort of go out on a limb. Like, when you read the text
messages, here is clearly what was happening. Brady was coming to the
equipment guys and saying, I need – do what you have got to do to get
these down.

And you have the equipment Jastremski complaining about what a jerk
Brady is to him who is clearly berating him because the balls are legally

And then the other guy is saying, I`ll bring you a needle. I`ll bring
you a needle. Like this is what happened, right?


Two things, first of all right now they are a bunch of really sweet
face kids in Chicago and they`re members of a team called Jackie Robinson
West. And they are asking their moms and dads, does this mean the Patriots
lose the title, mommy? And they are saying, no, kids, that only happen to
poor black kids in America, not billionaire NFL teams.

Chris, I was on your show five months ago. And what did I say?

HAYES: You said, they are going to pin it on the equipment manager on
our air.

ZIRIN: Yes, I did. It`s my only mistake was I said they are going to
pin it on Mike and Sully and instead, on Jimmy Mack and Johnny J. And the
only thing that report was missing is one of them texting, you know, Tom
isn`t really that wicked smart. That was the entire report.

And you know what, Bill Belichick gets away. Tom Brady gets away.
But I`ll tell you this, if you listen really closely, you know what you can
hear, you can hear a giant 500 pound asterisk being affixed to Tom Brady`s

HAYES: OK. Let me ask you this, Kevitha, based on the finding in the
report, what should the league do?

KEVITHA DAVIDSON, BLOOMBERG: Well, the league needs to institute a
fine. I think that`s probably going to happen. It will be very
interesting to see if Tom Brady gets a suspension. And I think that he
should based on what we see.

The other side of that is, are they really going to have their poster
boy, their golden child not on the field for opening night that Thursday
when the season opens.

HAYES: The year after they won the Super Bowl. Let`s remember the
context here.


And the timing of all of this has been very convenient for the league,
frankly, that they didn`t have to address any of this before the Super Bowl
actually happened.

Now, it is not – you know, it`s kind of uncomfortable that they have
to kind of put an asterisk on a Super Bowl that was won. But you know it
took them less time to find photos of Greg Hardy`s abuse
victim than it did to issue a 245 page report on this.

HAYES: Well, let`s talk about the thoroughness of this report. Let`s
– I refer you to figure 16 from the report, I believe it`s on page 240.
That`s pressure as a function of time while a football is being vigorously
rubbed. I`m not used – that`s the term in there, vigorously rubbed.
That`s apparently what the curve looks like when you vigorously rub a
football and how its PSI increases.

This was a pretty thorough undertaking, Dave.

ZIRIN: Yes. And you know what it keeps reminding me of that line
from Charlie Murphy from
the Chappelle Show. Bill Belichick, the Patriots, they are habitual lying
crossers. And that`s why so many NFL players – and this is what`s
shocking to me, NFL players are frankly worse than the cops when it comes
to putting a wall of silence when it comes to the scandals in their league,
yet when this started to break, you had people like Mark Burnell…

HAYES: Tweeting about it. People were like all of the place.

ZIRIN: Yeah, people were crying. Mark Burnell was crying, people
were like the Patriots are cheaters. Gray Lewis said every one of their
titles now should be looked at with asterisks on them. NFL players don`t
usually speak about each other like that behind the shield. It says
something about the amount of ill-will that bill Bell Belichick, Bob Kraft
and Tom Brady have accrued over time.

And Roger Goodell is in a tough spot, because what`s the mantra of
Roger Goodell? Ignorance is no excuse. Of course, if he applied that to
himself, he would have committed hara-kiri on the 50-yard line entering the
Super Bowl.

But if he wants to apply it to teams, then he actually does have to do
a real punishment here.

HAYES: Do you think – I mean, do you actually think substantively
they should take away the title?


Oh, hell yeah, unless you want to give the little league title back to
Jackie Robinson West. I mean, we need to have one standard of morality in
sports. You either cheated or you didn`t. And if we really do think they
cheated, let`s erase the Ted Wells lawyer speak and let`s say, you know,
what Seattle, get ready. Weed is legal anyway, let`s do a big old parade
right there.

HAYES: Can you imagine Kevitha? Can you imagine? That would
literally – what Dave is saying, that would be – you would have riots,

DAVIDSON: You would absolutely have riots.

HAYES: 100 percent have riots in America.

DAVIDSON: Whatever we are complaining about in Baltimore, it would be
50 times worse in Boston. I can`t imagine that actually happening, not the
least reason of which is the undue influence and power that Patriots owner
Robert Kraft has, especially in Roger Goodell`s inner circle.

HAYES: Well, let`s also be clear. I mean, they did win the game 45-
7. They destroyed the Colts in that game.

ZIRIN: But underneath that, though…

HAYES: And they scored a ton in that second half after they replaced
the footballs. So, I mean, to me, it is less about – to me, what`s
fascinating here is just like the idea of how this habitual lying crossing
gets engendered in the institution.

DAVIDSON: Well, that`s absolutely the case. The offense here isn`t
actually all that egregious. We talk to equipment managers and this is
something that goes on across the league. Aaron Rodgers kind of likes his
balls overinflated, for example.

The coverup really is what the problem is here, and the institutional,
as you said, culture of cheating that a lot of people around the league
really agree that the Patriots have.

HAYES: And Brady`s taxes – I mean, when you think about the power
imbalance between Tom
Brady, who is one of the most famous, accomplished, well-paid athletes in
the world texting this equipment manager after the story breaks saying, you
good, Johnny boy? I mean, that is just straight up, Tony Soprano kind of
like – I mean, it is just an incredible thing to like keep the conspiracy,
buddy, Don`t roll on me.

ZIRIN: Yep. And two other facts that are behind this too is that
first the GM. of the Colts said
before that game, hey, we should be checking the balls during the game. He
was clearly ignored. So, that says something that people knew about this.

And second, we are talking a lot about the Colts. I know Baltimore
has bigger issues to deal with these days. But let`s remember the
Baltimore playoff game the week before hand. Baltimore was on a sweet run.
They had beaten the Steelers. Who knows how that game would have been
different a lot of folks in Baltimore are asking other questions these
days, but they might want to ask that question too.

HAYES: Yeah. It is really – it`s fascinating to watch the league now
have to deal with this right, because they had to commission the report.
The story was the absolute biggest story in the world. Now they`ve got
this report, what are going to do with it?

Dave Zirin, Kevitha Davidson, thank you very much.

And that is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow shows starts
right now.


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