All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 04/22/15

Bill McKibben, Andrew O`Connell, Tom Colicchio, Jean Malpas


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN –

the words “climate change” doesn`t mean that climate change isn`t

HAYES: President Obama goes on an Earth Day attack in the land of
Bush and Rubio.

OBAMA: You`ve got a coming storm. You don`t stick your head in the

HAYES: Tonight, why climate change is officially a 2016 wedge issue.

Then, the latest from Baltimore where the police union is giving its
account of the death of Freddie Gray.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t want it to turn into a lynch mob.

HAYES: Plus, “Top Chef`s” Tom Colicchio on tonight`s premiere of his
MSNBC documentary.

TOM COLICCHIO, TOP CHEF: It raises the consciousness and starts to
raise the awareness around this issue.

HAYES: And the incredible story about a congressman`s tweet about his
transgendered grandchild.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She has always been Melissa. The only thing
that`s ever changed is her pronoun and her name.

HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

President Obama was in Florida on this Earth Day to do something that
in very recent memory would have been unthinkable, but is now irresistible.
He went on offense politically on the issue of climate change, and the
location the president selected to go on offense was no accident.

He was in the Florida Everglades, in a state that is home to two
Republican presidential contenders, including the one that many considered
to be the establishment front-runner, former Governor Jeb Bush. It is also
the state whose current Republican governor, Rick Scott, according to the
Florida Center for Investigative Reporting, banned people within his
administration from using the terms “climate change” and “global warming.”

Governor Scott denies the charge, but during a Florida Senate
subcommittee hearing last month, Governor Scott`s director of emergency
management, Bryan Koon, seemed so determined not to say “climate change,”
it became a running joke.


of them will require to have language to that the effect.

STATE SEN. JEFF CLEMENS (D), FLORIDA: What were those words, Mr.
Chairman? What were those words you were using?

I used climate change, but I`m suggesting as a state, we use
atmospheric reemployment. That might be something that the governor could
get behind.


KOON: But my understanding at this point, that we will require that
future versions of our mitigation plan will be required to have language
discussing that issue.

CLEMENS: What issue is that?

KOON: The issue you mentioned earlier regarding –

CLEMENS: Thank you so much.


CLEMENS: I`m going to turn the chair back over – well, maybe I
shouldn`t right now.


HAYES: The White House explicitly called out Governor Scott`s alleged
aversion to those words, both in the run-up to the speech and again today,
when the president was clearly referring to a governor whose putting his
fingers and his ears and hands over his eyes and pretending climate change
doesn`t exist.


OBAMA: So climate change can no longer be denied. It can`t be edited
out. It can`t be omitted from the conversation. And action can no longer
be delayed. And that`s why I`ve committed the United States to lead the
world in combating this threat. Simply refusing to say the words “climate
change” doesn`t mean that climate change isn`t happening.


HAYES: Of course, the president`s speech might have sounded very
different if Governor Scott`s reported ban on the term “climate change,”
was applied to it.


OBAMA: All of this poses risks to Florida`s $82 billion tourism
industry, on which so many good jobs and livelihoods depend. So (BLEEP)
can no longer be denied, to prevent the worst impacts (BLEEP), the worst
effects of (BLEEP), the worst effects of (BLEEP) down the road. But we
also have to prepare for the effects of (BLEEP). George H.W. Bush was the
first president, globally, to acknowledge the impacts of (BLEEP) because
they know that simply refusing to say the words (BLEEP) doesn`t mean that
(BLEEP) isn`t happening.


HAYES: As a political reality here of which Governor Rick Scott and
other Republicans are probably aware. There is a gap opening up between
the hard-core conservative base and the rest of the American people when it
comes to climate change. As the headline for a Gallup poll puts it,
conservative Republicans alone on global warming`s timing, in aggregated
polling over the past five years, only 37 percent of conservative
Republicans agree that the effects of global warming will happen in their

Even among independents, the number is much higher, 66 percent,
believing the effects will happen in their lifetime. Most people recognize
it`s real. It is not a giant hoax, and something has to be done about it.
The Republican base just doesn`t.

And just like on the issue of gay marriage, Republicans are trapped
between broad-based public opinion and their own base.

Joining me now, former chair of the Democratic National Committee,
former governor of Vermont, MSNBC contributor, Howard Dean.

We talked yesterday about that great Scott Walker answer, about
whether he would attend a gay wedding, basically saying, I went to a
reception, but not the ceremony. And that to me signaled a political
understanding that what the base wants to hear and what other voters in the
donor class wants to hear are very different. And I may think that
Republicans are getting to be in a similar spot on this issue.

HOWARD DEAN, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: They are. And this is brilliant on
the president`s part, brilliant, because he`s not running for re-election,
but he`s setting the stage for a campaign where Republicans will get
pummeled on Obama`s issue.

The president doesn`t have Congress that`s willing to do anything, or
able to do anything. So, by executive order, he`s doing a whole lot of
things. And one of the things he`s focusing on is climate change. And
he`s done a lot actually, which the Republicans, of course, don`t like.

This is the Jon Stewart-ization of this issue. He makes the
Republicans look foolish, and anytime you can make somebody look foolish,
they`re going to lose.

HAYES: You know, that`s what I think is interesting about the way the
issue is developing at this moment. Because I think – I don`t think it`s
true that huge numbers of voters are going to go to the polls with climate
change first on their minds.

DEAN: Right.

HAYES: But I do think it will increasingly seem ridiculous to have
the position, of James Inhofe, that it`s a hoax, and it will become kind of
a threshold issue, like, are you a person I can take seriously or not in a
general sense?

DEAN: That`s what happened to the Republicans in 2012. Romney is a
serious person, but the Republican primary made the whole party look
ridiculous. I think that could happen again. These guys are out there,
they`re saying ridiculous things. Rick Scott, and of course, the media
amplifies it, because the media always is going to amplify the absurdist.

HAYES: That`s right. We do that well.

DEAN: We complain about that when it happens to us. But when it`s
happening to them –

HAYES: Sure, right.

DEAN: I think they are going to get hammered and there will be other
issues like this. They`re going to have to be really careful of income
inequality, because that`s a big one, and a lot of Republican conservatives
who are working class are really upset about what`s happening to their
incomes and the Republicans are doing nothing but giving all of the money
away to the corporations and the Republicans know that. The Republican
voters know that.

HAYES: And there`s also this way in which you`ve got – you`ve also
got the donor class, right, to deal with. I also think, if you`re going
around it, there are some Republican donors, I think, who do believe it`s a
hoax or whatever. I think, you know, most of the American, sort of,
plutocratic establishment understands, you know, the data, understands that
it`s going to happen, probably run businesses that are currently planning
on how to deal with it or taking out risk insurance against it.

So, that`s another issue is, you`ve got to go behind closed doors and
not sound like an idiot to some billionaire you`re trying to get money out
of, and go talk to the base.

DEAN: Well, except a lot of the billionaires are in the fossil fuel
industry, and the fossil fuel industry is going to deny this until their
office gets flooded in Houston.

HAYES: That`s right.

DEAN: So, this is a low-lying city.

HAYES: It`s going to be like tobacco.

DEAN: Exactly. It`s really fascinating. I thought that Obama was
brilliant. This is not his nature. He didn`t come into office wanting to
be combative, but he sure is now and he is sure making them look dumb.

HAYES: That is – that is a sort of increasingly the sort of approach
heading into 2016, there`s the Pat Buchanan memo he wrote to Nixon about
law and order politics, in which he said, you can cleave the country in
half and we`ll get the bigger half. Like the definition of wedge issues.

You see Obama pressing on things that you can see that he both
believes in, but senses are wedge issue for Democrats.

DEAN: Right, Loretta Lynch turned out to be one that nobody expected.

HAYES: The Republicans managed to stumble into making the
confirmation of the next attorney general a wedge issue.

DEAN: Right.

HAYES: MSNBC contributor Howard Dean, always a pleasure.

DEAN: Thanks for having me on, Chris.

HAYES: OK. Earth Day tends to be an opportunity for appropriate and
accurate dire warnings over the state of our planetary stewardship. But
there`s a very optimistic story to tell about the trajectory of where
things are headed right now, both on the politics of climate change and the
technological revolution of renewables.

For instance, the forecast for power generation for clean energy
versus the forecast for fossil fuels has reached an exciting turning point.
Because, quote, “the world is now adding more capacity for renewable power
each year than coal, natural gas, and oil combined.” So fossil fuel still
dominates overall, massively dominates, new additions to our energy
capacity are being dominated by clean energy, which means it is just a
matter of time before clean energy takes over.

Now, that optimistic outlet does come with some caveats about which we
will talk here.

Joining me now, environmentalist activist Bill McKibben, author of
“Eaarth: Making A Life on a Tough New Planet.”

And, Bill, you`re on the front line to this, and I think – you know,
we tend to be in the doom and gloom camp, because the stakes are high.
It`s terrifying to consider, when you think about the sort time scale
against which we are pumping this into the atmosphere and the temperatures,
et cetera, but there`s a lot of reason to be optimistic on these two

Politically, it does seem to me like the trajectory of things are
moving in the right direction, if not fast enough. Is that your read of it

BILL MCKIBBEN, AUTHOR, “EAARTH”: Well – yes. I mean, look, your
diagnosis about Obama being able to talk about climate change, finally,
after being silent about it for many years, is correct.

The problem is, we really need a lot more than talk at this point.
We`ll find out when he makes decisions on things like the Keystone
Pipeline, whether it`s mostly just a matter of trying to one-up the
Republicans rhetorically or whether we`re really in this to fight it. I
mean, U.S. carbon emissions, we found out last week, end up last year,
which isn`t a good sign.

On the other hand, you`re absolutely right. The price of solar panels
has fallen 75 percent in the last six years. They`ve finally reached that
point where, you know, the Koch brothers have no economic argument left,
just like they`ve got no scientific argument left. All they`ve got is the
throw weight that comes with the tens of billions of dollars that piled up
over the years, selling oil and gas. They`re clearly determined to use
that to keep their advantage going, as long as they can. But it`s a more
tenuous position than it`s been in the past.

HAYES: The fossil fuel industry, one of the most fascinating fights
happening right now is rear guard actions. I mean, it`s proactive on the
part of incumbents, most utilities, in states, to essentially get out ahead
of this incredible rate of solar adoption that`s happening.

In absolute terms, it`s very small. But the way it looks, looks
exponential. It looks like cell phone adoption. I mean, it`s going at
this curve. The utility has gotten very nervous, and they`re fighting
these battles, basically trying to stop this before it happens.

MCKIBBEN: That`s right. The good news is – I mean, they`re winning
in a few states they`ve been table to keep it from happening. But people
are so desperate to put up solar panels and save some money, along with the
planet, that it`s a losing battle.

The really good news is, it seems to be a losing battle around the
world. The place where we most need to be putting in solar panel right
away is in those parts of the planet that are still not connected to the
grid. And there are now countries like Bangladesh that look like they will
be fully solarized within a decade, leapfrogging the fossil fuel age, just
as they did with cell phones.

That`s the most compelling news, and it`s why as we head towards Paris
and these negotiations in December, the planet comes together to talk about
this, this question of finance for poor countries to leapfrog into the
renewable age, that`s going to be front and center.

HAYES: Yes, the only way this is going to work, and we`re still going
to get warming and it`s still going to be brutal for a lot of people. The
only way we avert something that looks like catastrophe is this kind of
sort of one-two punch of politics and technology sort of working in concert
on the problem.

MCKIBBEN: So, there`s – you`re right, there`s a pincers movement.
But it`s less politics.

I mean, it`s nice that President Obama is saying that climate change
and real and it`s nice that Hillary is saying it, but we need a lot more
than that now.

HAYES: Right.

MCKIBBEN: The good news is, there`s a powerful movement pushing them.
You can see it most strongly in this rising divestment movement, all over
the globe. It`s going after the fossil fuel industry.

If Obama is starting to do the right thing, it`s because that, just as
with gay marriage, a movement has been pushing him to do it. None of this
stuff comes for free.

HAYES: Bill McKibben, always a pleasure. Thank you.

MCKIBBEN: Thank you, Chris.

HAYES: Day three of protests in Baltimore after Freddie Gray, a 24-
year-old black man died after suffering a spinal cord injury in police
custody. A police union official says this about the protests.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t want it to turn into a lynch mob.


HAYES: The family of Freddie Gray has been leading those protests.
Their lawyer will join me.

Plus, you`ve seen him on “Top Chef,” judging beautiful dishes.
Tonight, he`s going to tell us what to do with ugly food so it doesn`t go
to waste.


COLICCHIO: This banana is perfectly good to make a smoothie or banana
bread or something like that. There`s nothing wrong with this. If we open
it up, you can see, it`s great. There`s nothing wrong this.



HAYES: You ever wonder if there`s any good about global warming?

Director Joe Shappa (ph) hit the street of New York to find out.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I work really well with deadlines, so I
think the rising sea level is a good deadline for the end of civilization
so I get more things done.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oceans are warming, which means I won`t have to
pee in my swimsuit to warm up in the water.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, I don`t mind to increase water
availability, because I`m more of a PowerAde kind of girl.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I like that global climate changes is affecting
fisheries, because I got fired for dating the fish.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Global temperatures rising would cause an increase
in my sale of Japanese hand fans.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m excited for all the climate change themes

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we ruin the Earth, my dream of living with
Larry King on mars becomes real.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Global temperatures rising means I can finally
live out my dream of owning a diner where the eggs are cooked on the

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m really excited for all the climate change-
themed pornography.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Climate change are affecting fisheries.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, more intense heat waves means I get to keep
these sweet golden buns way past summer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m excited about the climate change themed


HAYES: Fans abroad might have recognized a few faces there. Happy
Earth Day! We`ll be right back.


HAYES: Protesters were out on the streets in Baltimore yet again
today, demanding answers in the death of 25-year-old Freddie Gray who died
Sunday in police custody, one week after he was arrested and suffered a
spinal cord injury. Today`s continued protests came after police union
officials said the images of last night`s march, which Gray`s mother and
other family members participated in, quote, “look and sound much like a
lynch mob.” A little later, he walked that back a bit.


that. I don`t want it to turn into a lynch mob, because when you`re trying
to put somebody in jail before all the facts are in and the investigation
hasn`t been completed – I mean, that`s wrong.


HAYES: Yes, trying to put someone in jail before the facts are in is
something police hate. The police said their internal investigation will
be completed by May 1st and they`re focused on what happened during the 30-
minute ride in a prisoner transport van as the source of Gray`s injuries.

In a statement today, authorities said they would not be releasing the
name of the other prisoner who was in that van with Gray for part of the
time that, quote, “the second person who was inside the prisoner transport
wagon with Mr. Freddie Gray is a witness in a criminal investigation. His
name will not be released to protect the integrity of the investigation.”

Meanwhile, a lawyer for the suspended police officers confirmed that
five of the six officers have given statements to investigators.


ATTORNEY FOR POLICE UNION: I can tell you that on April 12th, the day
this incident occurred, five of the six officers voluntarily waived their
constitutional rights and gave voluntary statements to the investigators in
this matter. And to be perfectly candid with you, had any of the five
officers that did give statement contacted me or any competent defense
attorney trying to giving statements, they most likely would not have given
a statement.


HAYES: We do not know what the five officers said during their
statements. We do not know how Freddie Gray was injured, but today the
officer`s lawyer appeared to insinuate that Gray was not injured at the
time of his arrest.


REPORTER: The video also shows him being dragged, because it seems
that his legs are inoperable. What did the officer say?

ATTORNEY FOR POLICE UNION: It seems. It doesn`t mean that they were.

REPORTER: What`d the officer say regarding –

ATTORNEY FOR POLICE UNION: The officer said he simply didn`t want to
walk, and that is not unusual with individuals who don`t want to be
arrested, they don`t cooperate, and they don`t want to walk. That is not

REPORTER: Because he didn`t want to walk. Why was he yelling, as if
he was in pain?

ATTORNEY FOR POLICE UNION: I think you`re using the words “yelling as
if in pain” is a speculation. It could have also been yelling to bring the
crowd, to make attention to his arrest.


HAYES: Joining me now is Andrew O`Connell, attorney for the family of
Freddie Gray.

Mr. O`Connell, there are so many questions here. Let me start with
this – is the family in custody of Freddie Gray`s body or do you have any
concrete medical examination to tell you definitively what happened?

making arrangements to have the body collected from the medical examiner
and making funeral arrangements in the short-term. With regards to the
contents of the medical examiner`s report, we don`t know what`s in that,
but they are anxiously awaiting that.

HAYES: What does it say to you that there appears to be collective
representation on the part of these police officers, who are suspected

O`CONNELL: Well, it`s not surprising at this early stage. That could
change as the investigation or the various investigations play out over
time. One individual may need separate counsel or they may all need
separate counsel, depending on which direction it goes.

HAYES: Does the family have a response to the head of the police
union`s use of the word “lynch mob,” to describe what, as far as we can
tell, have been peaceful protests the last few days?

O`CONNELL: They have been peaceful protests. And the choice of words
by the union leader, it was a horrendous choice of words. It`s ironic and
sad. Police officers aren`t lynched. It`s actually the other way around.
It`s the members of the African-American community that have been
historically lynched.

The protesters in Baltimore City have been peaceful, all these past
few days since last weekend. And to describe them as a lynch mob, on the
one hand, but at the same time, calling for peace and peaceful protests, is

HAYES: There are two investigations right now. The Department of
Justice has opened an investigation and the other investigation on the
ground is being conducted, as far as we understand, by the Baltimore police
department itself. Is the family of Freddie Gray confident in the
independence of that investigation?

O`CONNELL: The family has absolutely no confidence in the police
officers conducting an investigation of themselves. So, no, the family is
very hopeful that the U.S. Justice Department does a full and fair
investigation of all the facts, and then shares it with the community, yes.

HAYES: Am I correct that at this late date, while the city has put
out a timeline, there still is no account for what happened that could have
caused Mr. Gray to sustain injuries that would ultimately kill him?

O`CONNELL: That`s right. We`re waiting for the medical examiner`s
report and we`re hoping that sheds light on the exact nature of the
injuries Mr. Gray suffered. We did, though – we do know that he was
subject to a takedown by multiple police officers. They jumped on his
back. He was screaming in pain. Then he was placed in a – he was
handcuffed and then placed into a police van.

Exactly at what point he was injured, the exact nature of these
injuries, hopefully will bear out in the medical examiner`s report, which
we are anxiously awaiting.

HAYES: Andrew O`Connell, attorney for the Gray family, thank you very

Still ahead, I will talk to a cook who prepares food for senators, but
lives off food stamps. You don`t want to miss that.


HAYES: Some of the people who feed and clean up after our U.S.
senators walked off the job today, striking for higher wages and benefits.
According to organizers, about three dozen workers from the U.S. Senate
cafeteria joined about a thousand labor activists and other workers in a
rally and March on Washington this morning.

The workers were employed by federal contractors, and they were
striking and demonstrating to draw attention to the fact that many of them
are living in poverty.

Bertrand Olotara works for the company that`s contracted to run the
U.S. Senate cafeteria. He wrote a powerful op-ed for “The Guardian” today
about his plight. He wrote, quote, “I`m a single father and I only make
$12 an hour. I had to take a second job at a grocery store to make ends
meet. But even though I work seven days a week, putting in 70 hours for
two jobs, I can`t afford to pay the rent, buy school supplies for my kids,
or even put food on the table. I hate to admit, but I have to use food
stamps to make sure my kids don`t go to bed hungry.”

I spoke with Mr. Olotara today and asked him what it`s like cooking
food for U.S. senators, a number of whom are running for president, while
he himself needs food stamps to feed his family.


BERTRAND OLOTARA, COOK: I greet them, I talk to them, they`re nice
people, and I realize they don`t know what`s going on for those working at
the Senate building.

HAYES: If one of them is watching the show, what do you want them to

OLOTARA: What I want them to know, that the people working in the
Senate who want $15 and a union. We pay taxes. I pay taxes.

So, we say government for the people, by the people. We are those
people so the governor, the senator, or who are running for president, they
got to make a move. So I`m tired to hear word, so we need action.


HAYES: President Obama signed an executive order in February of last
year setting a $10.10 minimum wage for workers on federal, construction,
and service contracts.

Mr. Olatara and other striking workers also want the government to
give preference when it awards contracts to companies that pay workers a
living wage, $15.00 dollars an hour, and other benefits like paid leave.
They also want the ability to unionize.

Doesn`t seem like a lot to ask of profitable companies that are
awarded lucrative government contracts. Mr. Olatara says he`s eagerly
awaiting a response from the President and the candidates running to
replace him, many of them, he says, already know where to find him. He`s
the guy cooking their meals.

Next on the show, Top Chef, Tom Colicchio, on his new documentary,
tonight on MSNBC.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is edible, but it`s not edible to the

As a grower, that`s heartbreaking. When you grow the fruit and you
can`t sell it. That bothers me.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People think the environmental problems are about
smokestacks, about roads, about factories, about cities and concrete. And,
for sure, those are significant. But if you look at the earth from the sky,
what you see is fields. And it is there that we have had the biggest

Wasting a third of the land in all of that energy that we currently
use by wasting the food that we`ve produced is one of the most gratuitous
aspects of human culture, as it stands today.


HAYES: When you throw out the slightly off produce in your fridge,
it`s probably going to end up in a landfill, where it will sit,
indefinitely, decomposing and sending methane gas into the atmosphere.

Now, if you consider that, this is crazy, 40% of all the food in this
country that`s grown goes to waste, a truly astounding number, that adds up
to a lot of methane.

Something to think about on this earth day.

Tonight at 10:00, MSNBC is airing the new documentary, Just Eat It, a
food waste story, in which filmmakers Grant Baldwin and Jenny Rustemeyer
examine how all that food gets wasted, from the farm where it`s grown, to
the supermarket, to our
very own kitchens, and what we can all do about it.

They even try quitting the grocery store completely and living only on
food that`s been discarded.

Seeking some slightly more practical solutions, I talked with MSNBC
food correspondent, Tom Colicchio, who met me for a chat in the Today show


HAYES: I think food waste, I think, hey, like I did throw something
out that went bad in my fridge.

TOM COLICCHIO, TOP CHEF: We`re all guilty of that.

HAYES: So, before we get to that, before we sort of mine our own
guilt, let`s talk about what other people are doing wrong, because that`s
more fun.

How do we get waste before we even get to the store.

COLICCHIO: Well, I think the one issue in the farms is that we`re so
used to looking for fruits and vegetables that are really perfect and

And so, if there`s a bruise, if it`s the wrong size, it either doesn`t
get out of the field or it doesn`t get through the packer.

So, if a packer is looking to pack zucchini, they want a perfect sized
zucchini, certain circumference, no bruises. So it won`t even make the

So food can be rescued right there.

HAYES: So produce is coming out of the field, and both in the
decision – in the field – and there`s actually someone sitting there
going, yes, yes, no, yes.


And actually in the film, that Grant and Jen made, you see the
being made. Packers sitting there, throwing stuff out,no, no, no.

HAYES: Where does that stuff go?

COLICCHIO: It`s gone.

Now, there are some organizations that do some food rescues.

In New York City, we have City Harvest, and they take that food as
processed and it goes out to kitchens and stuff, and it does help to feed
people in need.

We have the D.C. Central Kitchen in Washington, D.C. does a great job
not only using food to provide job training, but then the food gets out to
soup kitchens.

And then there`s some new business models around this issue as well.

HAYES: How can it be – how can it be economically viable for
businesses that operate in the food supply chain, before you get to the
consumer, to be doing
so much wasting?

COLICCHIO: Now you`re touching on something that I keep pushing on as

The free market should step in here –

HAYES: Exactly.

COLICCHIO: And make this much more, you know, efficient. Exactly.

And so, and it`s not happening. I`m not quite sure why.

So, now the prices are already baked into this. And so, you got to
imagine, if you can actually shrink that by half, food prices will come

Now, in the supermarket, tons of waste in the supermarket. You have
this beautiful display of vegetables, something gets bruised. You would
never find this in a supermarket. Because there is brown on there. No way a
produce – someone who is running a produce section would not have this

And, so, we also want things in abundance. So, you look at a produce
you want it filled up. So, this would be called a cull. They say this is a
cull and it goes into a box and it goes into the garbage.

Just gone.

There`s no secondary market for this stuff.

HAYES: How did our expectations – I mean, this is something you do
see when you start going to farmer`s markets, you do notice immediately the
produce, it just
looks different. Right?

Or when you go to other countries, you notice the produce looks
different. It doesn`t have that kind of like, glossy, comic book sheen.

COLICCHIO: Or those misters.

HAYES: Well, that`s right. I love the misters, oh, it`s dewy.

How did we get trained to have an expectation –

COLICCHIO: You know, I could be part of that problem, because chefs,
I think, we want to portray things to be beautiful.

I think the glossy magazines may have a part to play.

And some of those magazines are trying to change this. Food and Wine
Magazine, for instance, they`re doing a special on ugly fruits and
vegetables, and hashtag, ugly fruits and vegetables, to get people to
understand that this stuff is
perfectly good.

This banana, for instance, is perfectly good to make a smoothie or
banana bread, or something like that. There`s nothing wrong with this. You
know, in fact, if we open this up, you`ll see that there is really – it`s
just great. There`s nothing wrong with this.

And, so, you know, a couple of brown spots, but you know, my kids eat
You know, this you can use, you know, smoothies. But, think about, at home
now, so
consumers waste about 25% of the food that they buy.

HAYES: So, we`ve gone through the pickers and the packers, the
supermarket –
COLICCHIO: And, now consumers.

We waste about 25% of the food that we buy. There`s this great
in the film where there`s a woman walking out of a store with four grocery
bags and she dropped one and just keeps walking.

And that`s to illustrates that that is what we are doing, which is
just – we`re letting it hit the ground.

And, what I do at home, on Fridays, I try to just, you know, open the
refrigerator, clean everything out, (inaudible) all the vegetables, make a
vegetable soup, or make a pasta, or something that you can use everything

You`ve really got to think about it. But part of it is, maybe shopping
more frequently, shopping with a purpose. But also, understanding how to
use leftovers.

Not to just serve leftovers, but repurposing leftovers. So, if you
have a roast chicken at night, what are you doing with that chicken the
next day?

Can you make a chicken salad or a chicken sandwich, are you using
bones to make stock.

If you go back to the recession, my grandparents grew up in a
recession, nothing was wasted.

And so, there`s a culture now of fast food, of processed food, of
foods that are available all the time. And so we don`t value food anymore.

HAYES: And one of the most revolutionary economic facts or trends
over the last hundred years is the composition of household budgets used to
be dominated by food.

COLICCHIO: Absolutely.

HAYES: Really the phrase, putting food on the table, as the
description of what you did as an earner was, was literal.

I mean, it was housing and food, was what you spent all your money on.
And so it literally has less value.


HAYES: In a very real sense, it`s like, if I throw out that zucchini,
that`s 6 cents –

COLICCHIO: Culturally, we don`t value it anymore. It`s not like our
And, it all changed after the Second World War, when, you know,
everything became about convenience.

I mean, you remember those ads back in the `50s, all these appliances,
make things convenient.

Mad Men, you look at Mad Men now and that`s what you see.

HAYES: But you can`t reverse that at the individual level?

I mean, we have to sort of have a different – like the whole supply
chain has to change at a certain level.

COLICCHIO: I think a film like Just Eat It Now, it raises the
consciousness and starts to raise the awareness around this issue. And,
people start thinking differently.

We screened this on Monday night and people are always saying, I`m
conscious that I`m throwing things out now. I feel bad about it.

You know, that head of lettuce that you were like, eh, toss it, now
you sort of feel bad about it. So, I think this is the start of it.

HAYES: Tom Colicchio, always a pleasure, man.

COLICCHIO: Cool. Thanks a lot.


HAYES: All right, the story behind the brave decision the parents of
a transgender 8-year-old made, ahead.


TRAVIS PHILLIPS, MELISSA`S FATHER: It`s a hard thing to go through,
because if you think about it, you want to be supportive of your child and
let them do what they want, explore, express themselves, but at the same
time, you`re thinking, okay, what are other people going to think.


HAYES: Washington Post`s, Tehran bureau chief, Jason Rezaian, was
in Iran in July and has been imprisoned since then without being charged or
given access to a lawyer.

Finally, after nine months in custody, nine months, he was charged
this week, quote, with espionage and three other serious crimes, including
collaborating with hostile governments and propaganda against the

He was finally allowed to hire a lawyer in March, seven months after
being arrested, and that lawyer is now responding to the charges.

Quote, Jason is a journalist. It is in the nature of his profession to
gain access to information and publish it. My client, however, has never
had any direct or indirect access to classified information to share with

In any place in the world, journalists being charged with espionage
for simply doing their job is an outrage, and a basic human rights
violation. The Iranian state should release Jason immediately, and every
American journalist stands in solidarity with him.


HAYES: In February, U.S. congressman Mike Honda of California tweeted
out a photo with his transgender granddaughter, writing, as the proud
grandpa of a transgender grandchild, I hope she can feel safe at school,
without fear of
being bullied.

NBS News`s national correspondent, Kate Snow, spoke to Honda`s
Malisa, and her parents about her journey.



She chose her name when she was very young. It just felt right to her.

TRAVIS PHILLIPS, MALISA`S FATHER: Talking about it`s emotional,
because that`s the way we feel about it.

A lot of emotion. A lot of it`s strong.

M. PHILLIPS: When babies come out, doctors assign them by what`s
between their legs.


M. PHILLIPS: We went with, okay, well, this is our second boy. Here
we go. And then, around 18 months, 2 years, she just started, sister,
daughter, pink, sparkles.

She always wanted to role play as the girl. All her toys and all her
presents were always, you know, from the girl section. You know, everything
was pink.

Her self-portraits have always been with long hair and as a princess.
She`s always wearing a dress in her self-portraits.

T. PHILLIPS: It`s a hard thing to go through.

Because, if you think about it, you want to be supportive of your
child and get them and let them do what they want, explore, express
themselves, but at the
same time, you`re thinking, okay, what are other people going to think,
right? How are they going to react?

M. PHILLIPS: In preschool, she was 3ish, you know, there`s
imaginative play and there`s dresses and purses and things like that. And
her teacher said, you know, she called me and she said, you know, there`s a
conversation I overheard and I just wanted to let you know, I`m really
proud of her. A boy had asked, why do you keep dressing up as a girl, why
are you always being a girl, and she said, my mommy said I can wear
whatever makes me happy.

She wanted to wear the tutus and she wanted to wear the ballet shoes.
And, we worried, we even said, you know, oh, I don`t think that comes in
your size.

It was a challenge to get there, to not care about what people
thought. To go outside and have her run around, as fabulous as she wanted
to be, with the outfits
that she put together, to be at the store and say, you know, mom, I want
the pink shoes. Okay.

We noticed the moment everything clicked. When she was 6, it was
Halloween, and our friend had given her a wig to wear with her Halloween
costume, and she put
it on and saw her reflection in the sliding glass, and then in the TV, and
everywhere she turned, she saw herself, and she just sat up straighter, and
started to kind of posing, and realizing, hm, this matches, you know? She`s
never had the long hair before.

And that`s kind of when, I feel like she switched over. And one of our
neighbors had – you know, we hadn`t met them yet, and told Zachary, oh,
sister`s such a good big sister, because she had helped him to get her
trick or treat candy, and she just beamed.

MALISA PHILLIPS: I didn`t understand at first. When I started to
understand, I met maybe who I was.

T. PHILLIPS: On her eighth birthday is really when we did the
transition, and switched everything over.

It`s nerve wracking, right, because you`re not sure what`s going to
happen, what the response is going to be. But, you want to be supportive.
Michelle did a great job on putting together an email and stuff and sending
it out to all our friends and everybody else. She said, you know, this is
what`s happening. There`s no ifs, maybes, this is what is going to happen.

You could see the difference. It was almost like a night and day, it
was like a release. And, when she became who she is, on the outside, then
everybody now recognizing that, she felt so much better, because now that
weight`s lifted. That stress, that frustration.

M. PHILLIPS: It hurts to think that she lived so long, as someone
that she didn`t feel she was inside.

We never wanted our children to be anything other than who they
believe they are. You know, she has a very strong sense of self.

MALISA PHILLIPS: I`m actually the same as any other girl.

T. PHILLIPS: She`s a happy kid and that`s the biggest thing that I
know I want, is for her to be happy.

M. PHILLIPS: She has always been Malisa.

The only thing that`s ever really changed is her pronoun and her name.

We tell her, you know, we have pictures up on the wall, still. Some
kids don`t like to see themselves, you know, prior to transition, but she
really mind, because we tell her, it`s always been you, you know? That`s
just you.


HAYES: Last night, we brought you the story of another family with a
transgender child, 5 year old Jacob Lemay, born with the name Mia and now a
well adjusted preschooler.

You can find the full packages about both Jacob and Malisa on our All
In With Chris Facebook page.

When we return, I`ll speak to a pediatrician and a psychotherapist
about how families deal with transgender kids and the complex questions
parents face as those kids grow older.

That`s when we come back.


HAYES: To talk about the challenges faced by families with
transgender children, joining me now is Doctor Michelle Forcier, she`s a
specialist in pediatric and adolescent medicine at Brown University, and
psychotherapist, Jean Malpas, he`s director of the Gender and Family
Project at the Ackerman Institute for the Family.

Great to have you guys here.

So, I have a 3 year old and a 1 year old. Kids and gender is
thing to watch. Because, they`re learning these – they`re getting these
and sort of figuring out performance, expectations, and they do different

They go through periods where they may be dressing in a certain way
and dressing not. And obviously, there`s this trope, right, back in the
sort of battle days of lesbian and gay children of, you know, this is just
a phase, right?

As a parent, you don`t want to be like, this is just a phase, but at
the same time, you also don`t want to overreact to that kind of pliability
in a kid, if that makes sense.

How do you talk to parents about distinguishing that?

JEAN MALPAS, ACKERMAN INSITUTE: Well, the thing that we first do is
really welcome the families with an affirmative assessment, and we take the
time to go back over the child`s gender development.

And everybody has a very unique gender journey. But we do back and
figure out, what was the child`s preferred play, preferred toys, playmates,
claims about themselves, sense of themselves, potential discomfort with
their own body or genitals, their sense of gender dysphoria, profound
discomfort with the gender that they were assigned at birth.

And that really helps us with the parents and with the child to
distinguish two different situations. One is when a child is gender non-
conforming or gender expansive or (inaudible), and doesn`t fit within the
often narrow pink and blue box that we have for them.

It`s not that they want to move from one box to another. They`re
beyond the box.

HAYES: That`s sort of –

MALPAS: They are outside the box.

And, that`s one situation, and it`s about sort of advocating for the
kid, advocating in the school and outside to really have them be who they

And the other situation is very different. And, as we just heard now,
is a
child who, for several years, often, has had a very, what we call
persistent, consistent, and insistent gender dysphoria. A really profound
discomfort with the gender they were assigned at birth. And they do want to
transition. They want to be affirmed for who they are.

HAYES: So, in this transitioning process, there`s obviously, it seems
to me, a distinction between pre-pubescent kids and pubescent kids, because
there`s – biology starts to play a larger and larger role in how people
interact with their
own gender, as they get older.

What, as a doctor, do you do about that situation, when you start to
near puberty?

MICHELLE FORCIER, BROWN UNIVERSITY: Well, the good news is, we listen
to kids.

And so, before puberty, I tell parents, take cues and let your kid
lead the way. So, if they feel really strongly about socially
transitioning, then we see a lot of relief and a lot of increased ability
to function and a lot happier kids if we allow them and encourage them and
help them socially to transition.

There are some kids that may not go on to be transgender or may have a
different gender identity as they get older, in the pre-puberty sense, and
so – but we don`t know. But we don`t have to know, because everything is
reversible, everything is social, everything is hair and makeup and clothes
and shoes.

So you don`t have to decide.

In the teen years, it`s different. So in biology and puberty and I
think the gender hormones start to kick in, you can`t necessarily avoid
being gendered.

You can`t avoid –

HAYES: You`re making medical decisions if you`re going to do
something like put in hormone blockers, for instance, right?

FORCIER: Well, even hormone blockers are reversible.

HAYES: Good point.

FORCIER: Even stopping puberty and giving people time to breathe and
figure things out, it`s still reversible.

So, in the teen years, it`s less likely that they`re going to say, oh,
you know, I really prefer, I really am a boy, they`re going to go with
their gender identity more than they`re going to think about, this is what
I was supposed to
be and I need to be that.

HAYES: There`s acceptance inside the family, and we`re showing these
sort of remarkable – well, in some ways, it shouldn`t be as remarkable as
it is, you know,
parents loving their kids and accepting their kids, a
primary –

MALPAS: Brave.

HAYES: But the fact of the matter is, there are a lot of people who
are not at all accepted by their families, or even if they are accepted in
their families,
there`s this social aspect, and that seems like probably more difficult to
navigate, at least in this moment in history.

MALPAS: Well, yeah, and research and practice really shows that
acceptance is protection.

The best way – parents want to protect, want to keep a healthy,
happy, safe child, and research has shown that protection really decreases
risk factors, particularly for self-harm and suicide.

So, you know, the best –

HAYES: You`re trying to protect, you`re saying, don`t do that outside
the house, because that will keep you safer and it`s actually the opposite.

MALPAS: It`s the other way around.

Actually, you have the best bet of having really a strong child who
can face
the adversities in the social world, but we also need to go outside in the
school to support the other environments and to really understand these
other issues and come along.

HAYES: Dr. Michelle Forcier and psychotherapist Jean Malpas, thank
you both. Really appreciate it. Great to have you here.

That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts right
Good evening, Rachel.


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