Coronavirus outbreak TRANSCRIPT: 3/5/20, The 11th Hour w/ Brian Williams

Ashley Parker, Jonathan Lemire, Philip Rucker

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: And isn`t that Elizabeth Warren`s story

modest means and just scratch it together out of pure grip?


REP. KATIE PORTER (D-CA): Sure. And that`s what women have had to do for

generations and they`re going to have to keep having to do until we really

have truly equal footing and equal opportunity. So I think that is a

uniquely women`s story that she`s telling, and it`s why she sees that

admiration in Oprah, that she had to overcome some of the same obstacles in

her profession that women politicians have to do.


O`DONNELL: Congresswoman Katie Porter gets tonight`s last word. Thank you

very much for joining us again tonight, really appreciate it.


POTER: Thank you.


O`DONNELL: And I want to thank all of the women who joined our discussion

tonight. That is “Tonight`s Last Word.” “The 11th Hour” with Brian Williams

starts now.


BRIAN WILLIAMS, MSNBC HOST: Tonight, it is a whole new dynamic in American

life. The need to believe the public health experts and doctors over what

the President`s been saying about the coronavirus as it continues to carve

into the global economy and the U.S. economy and as new fear spreads with

the new numbers that come out every day.


In the race for 2020, Elizabeth Warren today became the fifth Democrat to

drop out in five days as the race is on between Biden and Bernie to gain

her endorsement while the Sanders campaign is changing strategy on the fly

to deal with the Biden bounce in the next round of states.


And another warning tonight about a potential pandemic of misinformation,

especially on social media, we`ll let you guess as to who`s behind it as

“The 11th Hour” gets under way on this Thursday night.


Well, good evening once again from our NBC News headquarters here in New

York. Day 1,141 of the Trump administration, leaving 243 days to go until

the 2020 presidential election.


As the nation grows increasingly anxious about the coronavirus outbreak,

our President`s focus is clearly on defending his administration and his

fight to hold on to the White House. Fox News put on a town hall meeting

for the President tonight, of all places in Joe Biden`s hometown of

Scranton, P.A., more on that event later.


The Trump White House is under fire and under pressure for its response to

the coronavirus. Right now the number of confirmed cases in the U.S. rising

daily and region by region. There are now well over 200 confirmed cases in

this country, but remember only 1,500 people have been tested.


Financial markets remain rattled by the relentless spread. Today the Dow

lost about 970 points, largely erasing the big gains from earlier this



Both chambers of Congress have now approved an $8.3 billion emergency

spending package bill to help fight the virus. The President is expected to

sign it tomorrow.


At that presidential town hall on Fox News tonight, the very first question

was about the White House handling of the virus.




KATHERINE PUGH, WYOMING P.A.: At the outset of the coronavirus, your

administration`s response seemed to some as being confusing or minimizing.

What plans are being considered on a federal level for the possibility of a

long-term disruption?



– I think really giving tremendous marks.


One of the things I did as I closed down the borders to China and other

areas that are very badly affected. We have 149 cases as of this moment.

This morning was 129, and I just see right now it`s about 149 cases.


It`s going to all work out. Everybody has to be calm. It`s all going to

work out.


We could have a very long-term plan. We hope that doesn`t happen, but we

have plans for every single possibility. And I think that`s what we have to

do. We hope it doesn`t last too long.




WILLIAMS: And a quick reminder here, this was seven days ago, a week ago

today, when the President gave his prognosis for the coronavirus.




TRUMP: It`s going to disappear one day. It`s like a miracle. It will

disappear. And from our shores, you know, it could get worse before it gets

better. It could maybe go away. We`ll see what happens.




WILLIAMS: Just tonight he suggested a benefit of the virus is that people

are no longer traveling, instead spending their money here in this country.

Just 24 hours ago, Trump was asked about the World Health Organization`s

latest assessment of the coronavirus.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a report today the global death rate at 3.4

percent and a report that the Olympics could be delayed, your reaction to



TRUMP: Well, I think the 3.4 percent is really a false number. Now, this is

just my hunch, and – but based on a lot of conversations with a lot of

people that do this. So if, you know, we have thousands or hundreds of

thousands of people that get better just by, you know, sitting around and

even going to work –




WILLIAMS: His answer prompted this response from a key Trump ally in the

U.S. Senate.




SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Listen to the scientists when it comes to the

numbers, and I would encourage the President, if he`s going to report

things, to make sure that the science is behind what he`s saying.




WILLIAMS: Trump tonight also talked about having to change up his playbook

going into the 2020 election, adjusting his strategy following Joe Biden`s

Super Tuesday victories over Bernie Sanders and then Elizabeth Warren`s

dropping out of the race.




TRUMP: I was all set for Bernie because I thought it was going to happen.

You know how we get ready for things, right? So mentally I`m all set for

Bernie. Communists, I have everything down. I was all set. And then we have

this crazy thing that happened, right, on Tuesday?


Bernie would be tougher because he`s got a base.


I don`t think I`m running against Bernie. I think it`s going to be very

hard for him to come back.




WILLIAMS: He of course stepped up his attacks on Joe Biden, vowing to make

Hunter Biden`s work in – wait for it – Ukraine, a major issue in the

general election.


Tonight he appeared to suggest the impeachment investigation was ultimately

more damaging to Biden than to him.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think Biden is damaged? Do you think he`s



TRUMP: I think – I think that Biden has been damaged, yes. A lot of people

– I saw a couple of statements, very strong statements by very respected

people in your world saying they aimed at Trump, and but they took Biden

down. And really, that`s what happened when you think, because you look at

the son. Here`s a guy, didn`t have a job, was unfortunately, sadly, the

military was a very sad experience for him. He goes out, he gets $3 million

plus $183,000 a month to be a board member of a company that a lot of

people said was corrupt.




WILLIAMS: And he had this to say when one Pennsylvania resident asked about

dialing back the divisive rhetoric.




TRUMP: They hit us. We have to hit back. I feel that.


Turning your cheek, but I wouldn`t be sitting up here if I turned my cheek.




WILLIAMS: With that in mind and here for our leadoff discussion on a

Thursday night, in Washington, two Pulitzer Prize winners both with “The

Washington Post,” that hardly seen fair, Philip Rucker, White House Bureau

Chief, and Ashley Parker, White House Reporter. Phil happens to be co-

author along with his “Post” colleague Carol Leonnig of “The New York

Times” best-selling book “A Very Stable Genius.” And here with us in New

York, Jonathan Lemire, White House reporter for the Associated Press. Good

evening, gang, and welcome to you all.


And, Ashley, I`d like to begin with you. Is there any degree of fear that

you`re picking up in the White House that the facts are going to supersede

the plot line the President is giving the American people? Is there any

degree of surprise that with all this guy has survived and put behind him

to wake up every day, this is sitting in the middle of the road in front of




certainly already a lot of internal infighting and finger-pointing and

recriminations, and one of the things that`s notable is as you said, all

this President has faced, a lot of those are crises of his own making. And

this is a little bit of self-sabotage. And this is the rare crisis from

outside, from abroad.


And there is a sense not necessarily in the White House but certainly

administration-wide, that there was a period of several weeks from when we

found out that there was this virus, this coronavirus in the Wuhan Province

of China to when the President finally appointed, you know, Vice President

Pence to head this task force, that that time was just squandered. And you

can go through and pinpoint discrete instances of when the testing didn`t

work, when the testing criteria was too narrow.


And there`s also talk of how the White House, especially the President,

didn`t really take it seriously when it was a public health crisis. It took

for it to become a political crisis. So that would be the stock market

plummeting. That would be what the President viewed as alarmist rhetoric

from his aides saying it`s not a question of if, but when. That that the

President and the White House really got engaged, which frankly just

started about a week ago yesterday.


WILLIAMS: Jonathan Lemire, let`s keep going on this theme. The President

worked the word “flu” into the Fox News interview last night. He has always

been able to create this alternate universe, in some cases using his own

stats and his own facts. But to Ashley`s point, these bumps against public

health, which all of us have a stake in.



life as a celebrity real estate developer when he was calling in completely

made up stories to the tabloids to his time as a politician and president.

He tries to assert his own reality. And he often uses his own set of facts

trying to create, try and create that reality, which is obviously sometimes

flies in the face of what the rest of us are experiencing every day.


And certainly this is one where buy sheer force of personality, he has

often gotten away with it. But this is a moment where, as you say, it may

be harder. We`re seeing it already now.


He`s downplaying the crisis. OK, that`s standard for a politician. But he`s

doing so in a case where he`s misstating the numbers here. He`s been

consistently saying there are far fewer people affected by this than

actually are.


He has, three times in the last few days, been publicly corrected by his

advisers when he suggested that a vaccine might be on the market for

Americans to use within a matter of months and had to be told, like, no,

it`s going to be a year or more most likely.


He is, to Ashley`s point, he was slow to react in part because he didn`t

want to publicly talk about it because he didn`t want to upset the markets

or upset Xi Jinping in China, and obviously criticize their handling of

this virus here because President Xi is someone he`s worked as an ally.

They`re still working on a trade deal together. He didn`t want to be seen

as embarrassing him.


But this is a moment where his supporters even, those who perhaps get their

news from Fox News and other cable networks, who are inclined to believe

the President over the more – you know, the more, “mainstream media,” who

are inclined to take his word for it even when he`s contradicted by most

other sources. If people around them are getting sick, if in their local

newspaper, their stories about people are getting sick, if their local

school district has to close, that`s going to be very different. And

they`re going to be impacted by this. They`re going to see the markets

perhaps continue to plummet and this is a moment where the President`s

ability to create his own reality may really be tested.


WILLIAMS: Phil Rucker, I want to play for you and our audience a moment

that happened on CNBC, on live television earlier today. We`ll discuss on

the other side.




RICK SANTELLI, CNBC EDITOR: Think about how the world would be if you tried

to quarantine everybody because of the generic-type flu. Now, I`m not

saying this is the generic-type flu, but maybe we`d be better off if we

gave it to everybody, and then in a month it would be over because the

mortality rate of this probably isn`t going to be any different if we did

it that way than the long-term picture. But the difference is we`re

wreaking havoc on global and domestic economies.




WILLIAMS: So, tell us where to line up for the coronavirus. That actually,

as I said, happened on live television today. And let`s just take a flyer

and dismiss the idea he`s floating there of giving it to everyone. But,

Phil, as no one needs to remind you, when this guy goes out before a

hometown crowd, he has two major talking points. Look what we`ve done for

you on federal judges and look at the Trump economy. Does this mean, in

effect, he`ll be down to the one talking point?



Brian, and that`s why the President is so concerned and rattled by this

coronavirus story of the last couple of weeks. You know, it would be so

easy for him to just stay quiet and say, you know, to the American people,

here are the experts that I`ve appointed to take control of this situation.

Listen to them. They`re going to talk to you every day.


I`m going to give them all the resources that they need, but I`m not going

to comment on it. I want you to hear the facts from them. But the President

cannot resist from adding his own commentary, adding his own false

information. He is no expert in public health or infectious diseases, yet

keeps weighing in, and it speaks to his insecurity and anxiety about the



He`s watching that stock market. He sees it as a barometer for his re-

election hopes. He knows if the economy dips over the long haul here over

the next few months that that spells disaster for his re-election. And so

he`s trying to use every tool in his tool kit, including his salesmanship

to reverse the trends that we see playing out every day.


WILLIAMS: Ashley, I imagine they`d rather do an acclamation coronation-type

deal and not run against anybody. But tonight he said he had his Bernie

argument all set. He was going to run against him as a communist, and we

just went through impeachment, which was about Joe Biden. So what have you

gathered is closest to the truth? Who does he want to run against?


PARKER: Well, it`s a great question, and it depends on who you ask and

when. But what`s fascinating is throughout this all, there were three

people, three Democratic candidates who at various times the President was

really, truly worried about. The first one on his radar was Joe Biden, in

part because Joe Biden was beating him not just in public polls but in

private polls, in one-on-one match ups and that`s something the President

pays attention to. There was a sense that Biden could cut into his sort of

working class base and win back those blue dog Democrats.


Then he was worried about Bernie Sanders. Yes, he and his campaign truly

thought they could paint him, as the President said tonight, with a

communist brush as liberal socialist, but the President privately said he

worried about Bernie Sanders giving away free things. So look, it doesn`t

matter what I promise. If Sanders is offering free college tuition, it`s

hard to compete with that.


And then of course, he was worried and certainly irked by Mayor Mike

Bloomberg in part because Bloomberg was in many ways the person Trump

portrays himself to be, an actual self-made billionaire.


And he is now going to have to run against one of those two candidates,

Sanders or Biden, it looks like, who he truly has been worried about. So

it`s unclear right now if he`s more worried about Biden or more worried

about Sanders. But these are two men that have occupied his psyche. You can

see that in his public comments. You can see that in his tweets. And I

think we will just see more of that and more of that angst going forward.


WILLIAMS: And Phil, this may require intel from the other camp, but Biden

has chosen not to fight back on all things Hunter and Burisma. Is there any

evidence they are planning now as a presidential campaign to fight back?


RUCKER: They are, Brian. My colleague, Matt Viser and I spent today

reporting on this very subject and heard from the Biden camp that they are

preparing to fight back aggressively should Trump do as he vowed in that

interview with Sean Hannity, which is to make Hunter Biden`s work for that

Ukrainian energy firm a major issue in the general election if Biden`s the

nominee. The Biden campaign knows that they can`t afford to be silent on

this, that they`re going to have to engage in some way.


And they`re also planning to try to use that corruption argument back on

Trump, effectively saying – and this is some of the Biden supporters by

the way saying this – that if the President`s going to go after Biden`s

son, then Eric and Don Jr. may be a fair game. Look at the corruption. Look

at what they`ve done at the Trump Organization. Look at the self-dealing

within the Trump family, not only the Biden family.


WILLIAMS: Well, that`s a new kettle of fish. Mr. Lemire, is anyone in the

Trump camp saying, maybe Burisma is a dead horse?


LEMIRE: No. It doesn`t seem that way. In fact, I received an unprompted

text message from a person in Trump world this week who just said, get

ready to have the words Hunter Biden be back in your life again. We`ve

already seen Senator Johnson of Wisconsin moving toward investigations

about Burisma. Even though this, of course, was the very thing that got the

President impeached, trying to push Ukraine into probing Burisma and Hunter

Biden. They don`t seem like they`re backing of it.


They feel like that`s still a winner. They feel like that Biden was damaged

during those proceedings.


The President has given him credit for the comeback here in the last few

days, and they`re worried about that he could reassemble some of the Obama

coalition as well as those working class voters that Ashley mentioned. But

they feel like Hunter Biden is a play they`re going to use. They still feel

fairly confident.


WILLIAMS: Our big three on a Thursday night, Philip Rucker, Ashley Parker,

Jonathan Lemire, our thanks for coming on as always.


Coming up for us, separating science from spin when it comes to this

coronavirus. We`ve got a doctor on-set.


And later, the race to the White House now minus Elizabeth Warren, now the

remaining men scramble for her endorsement as “The 11th Hour” is just

getting under way on a Thursday night.




WILLIAMS: There are now over, as we said, 200 confirmed cases of

coronavirus in our country today. Officials in Tennessee, Maryland, Nevada,

Colorado all reported their first cases. Here in New York State, at least

11 new cases reported just today, bringing the total to 22. Eight of those

new cases linked to one guy, a commuter to the city who tested positive

earlier this week.


In the city alone, over 2,700 people are now in some form of quarantine.

Washington State reported over two dozen new cases today, meaning at least

70 cases in all. Death toll there is 11. Amazon Seattle-area employees were

told to work from home if they could as the virus spreads. It has had a

visible effect on that city.


This was the scene outside the Space Needle in Seattle today, the usually

popular tourist destination, a ghost town. On the upside, you can park

again in downtown Seattle.


Off the coast of San Francisco, there`s a growing crisis at sea aboard this

vessel, the Grand Princess. It`s not been allowed to dock because officials

learned a previous passenger died of coronavirus. Twenty-one people onboard

are showing symptoms. Today a military chopper flew test kits to the deck

of the ship.


In a rare moment of candor, Mike Pence offered this warning today during a

visit to Minnesota.





today to meet what we anticipate will be the demand going forward. For

those who we believe have been exposed, for those who are showing symptoms,

we`ve been able to provide the testing.




WILLIAMS: We are happy to have with us here tonight Dr. John Torres, our

NBC News Medical Correspondent.


Doc, I heard it said tonight only 1,500 Americans have been tested. Without

being an alarmist, how can there not be a commensurate spike on the way in

the number of cases we know about?



going to hear about over the next week or two. And that`s why I`ve been

telling a lot of people to not get too worked up over that number because

we`re starting to test a lot more people. Those tests are starting to get

out there. Like you said, there`s still a deficit of the tests but the ones

you`re getting there. And so more people are going to get tested that

weren`t tested before.


Like you said, people were getting tested if they had symptoms, if they

have signs or they were hospitalized because of coronavirus. But now people

who want to get tested because they think they might have it, and that`s a

huge number of people, will start to get tested, which means we`ll start

finding more coronavirus. And so we`ll start seeing more numbers.


That same number has been around. We just haven`t noticed it before, so

you`re going to see a spike in it.


Again, part of that spike is because there are new cases. Part of that

spike is because we`re finally detecting those cases that have been here

all along.


WILLIAMS: We`ve never had a case where we`re getting in some cases

misinformation or incorrect information from the President of our country.

As I keep saying, local news will be the reality for people around this

country from Denver to New York. If people are starting to get nervous, how

should they change their behavior if at all at this early date?


TORRES: So if people are starting to get nervous, and I do agree with you

that we need a lot of information, a lot of accurate information. When

you`re getting that kind of miscommunication and hearing two different

things, it`s hard to understand exactly what to rely on. The CDC is a

fantastic choice to go to get the proper information you need.


But the main thing is people just need to do the same thing they would do,

if you remember back in the swine flu epidemic that we had, you know, these

bad flu seasons, we tell them the same thing. Social distancing, which

means you want to be a few feet away from people, six feet in this case.

You constantly wash your hands during the day. Don`t touch your face until

you wash your hands or use alcohol gel on your hands to keep them clean.

And do the best you can to stay healthy.


If you start getting sick or start having fevers, stay home, that way you

don`t spread it to other people. And those are the best things we can do

not only for ourselves but for everybody else around us. And if do you get

sick, especially if you have respiratory problems, that`s when you want to

be seen. But if you are being seen, call before you go in because you want

to make sure that they`re ready for you. They`ll put a mask on you just

like we did in the flu season and say, you know, let`s have you sit here

for a while but not spread it to other people in the waiting room.


WILLIAMS: And when we hear about people in isolation or self-quarantine,

does that mean they`re staying home because they may have it?


TORRES: There`s two different things. Quarantine is staying home because

you were possibly exposed to it and you`re looking for signs and symptoms

of it crapping up, mainly the fevers, the cough, the respiratory problems.

If that happens and you start showing symptoms, especially if you`ve tested

positive for coronavirus, then you become isolated. And that usually puts

you at a hospital-based system, where you go in the hospital, you get put

in isolation where you`re not around anybody else or the people that come

near you are in outfits so they can protect themselves and then you get

treated appropriately.


So quarantine is what we`re seeing a lot of. These self-quarantines, a lot

of that is an overabundance of caution. A lot of those don`t necessarily

need to happen, but people are getting really worked up and anxious about

this, that are saying, you know, let`s be better safe than sorry.

Unfortunately that`s having a huge impact on the country not just

economically but psychologically as well.


WILLIAMS: Ladies and gentlemen, watching this is a busy guy, Dr. John

Torres, our medical correspondent. Thank you for coming by.


TORRES: You bet.


WILLIAMS: Coming up for us, it`s now a crucial presidential campaign

question. Who gets the Warren endorsement? Will there be one, when we come







SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): It`s one of the hardest parts about this. All

those pinky promises, all those all girls, we`re going to do this. It`s

just going to be a little longer before we`re able to have a woman in the

White House. And – But it doesn`t mean it`s not going to happen. It

doesn`t mean it`s not going to happen soon.




BRIAN WILLIAMS, MSNBC HOST: Senator Elizabeth Warren`s exit from this race

leaves two white guys, ages 77 and 78, trying to replace a 73-year-old in

the White House who happens to be our oldest President. And today “The New

York Times” posed this question. “Was it always going to be the last men



While she`s declined to make an endorsement saying – and she`s correct

here – there`s time for that, it will be sought after and already is.

Earlier today “The Washington Post” Drew Goins posted this picture on

twitter. It shows the Senator`s portrait at Harvard Law School where the

portraits hang of the tenured professors surrounded by post-it thank you

notes of praise for her.


Back with us tonight is Mara Gay, former New York City Hall Bureau Chief at

“The Wall Street Journal,” now a member of “The New York Times” Editorial

Board. Since I just said “The New York Times” Editorial Board, it does

remind me Warren and Klobuchar were your selections. How is a member of

“The New York Times” Editorial Board viewing today`s news?



member of the board but also just as an American woman, I think is a little

bit of a sad day in politics. You know, you got to be looking at this as an

American woman and thinking to yourself, Elizabeth Warren was the most

qualified in many ways, you know, experienced candidate in the race. She

had the best ideas, which is why we endorsed her, and Senator Klobuchar`s

were also very impressive.


And she really did her homework and I think there is a sense among a lot of

women that you have to be twice as good, and even then it`s not enough. And

I think that`s really what happened tonight. But there is a larger context

here, and I just got back from a trip across the south with Michael

Bloomberg and some of the other candidates as well. And the reality is that

Senator Warren was running in the shadow of Hillary Clinton`s loss, and

voters – Democratic voters, especially black Democrats in the south who

really spoke up so forcefully in favor of Joe Biden, they are so desperate

and so intent on beating Donald Trump that they are looking for the least

risk imaginable.


And I had voter after voter tell me, you know, we really like Elizabeth

Warren, but we don`t know if our neighbors are going to vote for – and by

neighbors, they don`t necessarily even mean just Democrats. They don`t know

if – We don`t know if our neighbors are going to vote for a woman. We look

at what happened to Hillary, and we think maybe it`s too risky.


And that`s heartbreaking, I think, to hear but I think that is the reality

is that so many voters are looking for the least risk, and right now that`s

Joe Biden. They know Joe Biden. So he may not be Barack Obama and as

inspiring, but he`s somebody who they believe is the best bet to get Donald

Trump out of the White House.


WILLIAMS: You have spoken with great knowledge about Mike Bloomberg on this

broadcast and others, and so I want to ask you, do you take him at his word

that he`s going to become a one-man bank, a one-man super PAC? In effect,

will that make him the worst and most consequential presidential candidate

in modern history?


GAY: I think money and politics in general is a serious concern and a

serious problem. I don`t know that this is the election year to have that

battle, and frankly, I think Democrats who voted for Joe Biden and Michael

Bloomberg understand that. I think that the need to restore our democracy

probably by removing Donald Trump from the White House is the most

important thing, and that, you know, Michael Bloomberg didn`t get what he

wanted. But he still has an opportunity right now to put his money where

his mouth is and to make a huge difference by helping Joe Biden. And that

would be quite a legacy for him, and I think that`s what he`s looking at.

So once he can kind of have a moment, swallow his pride, and get back to

work, that would be the best thing for the Democrats.


WILLIAMS: But you see it as a possibility if he wants to spend a billion

bucks beating this guy, he could do it.


GAY: Absolutely. Somebody tweeted recently that actually with the money

he`s spent, he could have given every American a million dollars.


WILLIAMS: I`ve got it. Let`s put it up on the screen. When I read it

tonight on social media, it kind of all became clear. “Bloomberg spent $500

million on ads. U.S. population, $327 million.” Don`t tell us if you`re

ahead of us on the math. “He could have given each American $1 million and

have had lunch money left over.” It`s an incredible way of putting it.


GAY: It`s an incredible way of putting it. It`s true. It`s disturbing. It

does suggest, you know, what we`re talking about here, which is there is

too much money in politics. And it makes it difficult because what we want

in politics – the point is to have competition, and the point is to have

the best candidates and have people from all backgrounds be able to run.

And so that gives people real choice, not just super PACs and dark money

flooding elections or even just a single billionaire with good intentions -





GAY: – in this case. But that said, this is a huge election year. What is

at stake is existential for the American Republic but also for many

Americans on a personal level. And, you know, Michael Bloomberg still has

an opportunity to make an impact and make it count.


WILLIAMS: Just back from her southern swing, our friend Mara Gay of “The

New York Times.” Always a pleasure. Thank you for coming in.


GAY: Thanks for having me.


WILLIAMS: Coming up, we`re five days away from the next round of contests,

including the critical state of Michigan. We`ll talk to two of the best

political reporters on the ground about what comes next for the two guys

left at the top of the Democratic race.




WILLIAMS: We`re five days away from the next Democratic primary in six

crucial states and it`s now a two-man race. After a disappointing Super

Tuesday showing, really a shellacking, Bernie Sanders` campaign is already

making course corrections for the remaining real estate. They`ve canceled a

rally in Jackson, Mississippi tomorrow. They`re shifting their sights to

Michigan instead.


Just today, the governor of Michigan, Gretchen Whitmer, endorsed Joe Biden

for president. Here is what she told Chris Hayes tonight.




GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D), MICHIGAN: When Michigan needed a champion, it

was Barack Obama and Joe Biden that had our backs during the auto rescue.

When we needed a champion who was going to turn their grief into a cause to

expand health care to people, that`s what we got out of the Obama/Biden

presidency and vice presidency. We know Joe, and more importantly Joe knows





WILLIAMS: Two of our favorites back with us tonight. Alexi McCammond,

Political Reporter for Axios, covering the 2020 campaign, and Robert Costa,

National Political Reporter over at “The Washington Post”, happens to be

moderator of “Washington Week” on PBS. Alexi, you heard the commercial.

Right there, she even ended her endorsement the way Congressman Clyburn

did. More importantly, Joe knows us. Talk about the importance of Michigan.



really important state for the 2020 election as it was for the 2016

election. In that election, Bernie Sanders won the primary over Hillary

Clinton by just 1.5 percentage points, so it was a really narrow margin of

victory he had then, which suggested he`s going to have a lot of work to do

to win the state by a larger margin this time around next Tuesday. Joe

Biden`s whole shtick has been about fighting for these working class voters

who felt that they were left behind before Trump and then Trump came and

swift them up. So he`s really going to try to use that message.


But we`ve already seen the message that Bernie Sanders is going to use

against Biden in a place like Michigan, which is talking about Biden`s

record on trade and NAFTA and pushing this argument and this narrative that

Biden is not as solid on trade as Bernie Sanders has been in his record. It

remains to be seen whether or not that will be helpful in a place like

Michigan, but certainly with the automobile situation, that could be

something that could be helpful for Bernie Sanders as he`s trying to

overtake Biden in this next election.


WILLIAMS: And Robert, I was sitting there looking at the map of remaining

states today. Depending on how you look at it, it could get really tight

for Bernie from here on in.


ROBERT COSTA, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: It could very well get tight for

Senator Sanders in the coming weeks. When you talk to his campaign, they`re

looking beyond to states like Wisconsin, which was strong for Senator

Sanders in 2016. But Senator Sanders, as you remember from that time as

well, he carried on nearly to the convention in Philadelphia. And because

of the way – this is now a two-person race, his campaign advisers believe

he could take it all the way to Milwaukee this time around.


WILLIAMS: Alexi, Biden is closing in as an organization. There`s no debate

how empowering it was to have no money, to open no campaign field offices,

and be rewarded as they were – California, of course, still outstanding –

to be rewarded as they were. They want very much to sew that into their

kind of closing message. They want to seem inevitable.


MCCAMMOND: I think that`s exactly right, and the other thing about being

inevitable is that, you know, Joe Biden wants to show that the country and

Democratic primary voters are clamoring for a more moderate candidate than

they see in Bernie Sanders. We saw this before the field winnowed down. We

saw the total support that folks like Klobuchar and Pete Buttigieg and Joe

Biden would amass, compared to the total support that Elizabeth Warren and

Bernie Sanders would get together.


And I think that Joe Biden is really using this to his strength to show

that people want someone who is a little more pragmatic than the message

and the ideas that Bernie Sanders is putting forward, especially in these

states that are not only important to the electoral college for the

presidential election but in states like Virginia that are really important

for down-ballot races and were really important in 2018 for helping

Democrats retake control of the House.


WILLIAMS: And, Robert, do you take – I just asked Mara Gay this. Do you

take Bloomberg at his word that he is willing to finance, in effect, the

ground war or large parts of it from here on out, willing to become a one-

person super PAC, especially given the infrastructure he`s already bought,

paid for, and set up? In short order, he became a huge Trump troll just on



COSTA: For Vice President Biden, it`s not about taking Mayor Bloomberg at

his word. Mayor Bloomberg is going to follow through based on my reporting.

He wants to be seen as the political machine that elevates Joe Biden, that

helps win him the White House, that gets credit for keeping the Democrats

competitive in suburban districts. But politically, when you talk to the

Sanders campaign and others in the Democratic Party, they wonder will there

be a political confident to the Bloomberg wealth in this sense? Could

Senator Sanders then try to target Vice President Biden as an ally of the

billionaires like Mayor Bloomberg? Will he try to rally liberals around the

idea that Vice President Biden is too close to rich people in the

Democratic Party?


For Vice President Biden`s team, they want to have Bloomberg as an ally.

But you`re going to see Senator Sanders continue to sharpen his critique as

it is a two-person race on trade, as Alexi was talking about, and on Iraq,

and now also on the preliminary hearing issue.


WILLIAMS: While I have you both and our audience paying attention, it turns

out Mara and I got the same grades at math. I`m speaking of the tweet we

both misinterpreted. He could give each American $1. Again, I didn`t have

it in high school. I don`t have it tonight. Stand corrected. Sorry about

that. The tweet is wrong. Garbage in, garbage out.


Alexi McCammond, Robert Costa, sorry to take your time. Thank you both for

coming on. We`ll see you down the road.


Coming up for us, our next guest is here to tell us what happened 250 years

ago today and how it affects us today, when we continue.




WILLIAMS: As our next guest pointed out just this morning, today is the

250th anniversary of the Boston massacre. Legal Analyst Dan Abrams` new

book offers an inside look at how the trial following the massacre and the

role one John Adams played shaped our current legal system. He writes, the

British soldiers trial, “Was as important in the development of American

jurisprudence as it was in the political history of this country. The

nation`s legal system was being born in this courtroom with John Adams

leading the way, establishing the primacy of the rule of law. In fact, he

risked his career for it”.


Back with us tonight is our friend and author Dan Abrams. Did you know Dan

was on the air here for many years? Did you further know he`s the former

general manager of this network? Both true. These days he`s Chief Legal

Analyst for ABC News, CEO and Founder of Abrams Media. I`ll be done with

this. His favorite non-11th hour cable show, “Live PD on A&E. He is here

tonight, however, as co-author of the new book, “John Adams Under Fire: The

Founding Fathers` Fight For Justice In The Boston Massacre Murder Trial”.

It is such a treat to see you again.



back with you.


WILLIAMS: I just came across my notes when I read the copy of the book you

kindly hooked me up with weeks ago. My notes are, you get to meet Sam Adams

before he was a logger. Kilroy is in the book. I mean, you`ll find Kilroy

in the book.




WILLIAMS: Branding irons are in the book.




WILLIAMS: Tell the folks why in a time when by modern standards, life was

horrendous in this country.




WILLIAMS: Why it`s important today.


ABRAMS: Because John Adams took on a very unpopular case. No one liked the

British soldiers. He took on the defense of them in this murder trial, and

I think that has established the basic right of everyone to have an

attorney, even if it`s an unpopular case. But from a legal perspective, the

standard of reasonable doubt was established in this case. It was the first

time the standard of beyond a reasonable doubt was ever set forth in a



And I think what`s so important about this case is this incident, the

Boston massacre, five colonists killed could have easily led to the

American Revolution. It easily could have been the catalyst, but it wasn`t.

And you know why? Because people had faith in the law and the rule of law.


The governor of Massachusetts at the time, who was a loyalist, stood up

when people were about to demand revenge, and he said, we will live and die

by the law. And as a result, people believed him. They calmed down. They

waited for the legal system to work its way through, and John Adams

represented the soldiers.


WILLIAMS: Who do we see about the fact that federal judges are under attack

today, members of the Supreme Court are under attack today?


ABRAMS: I think it`s a real problem. I mean, I think, you know, Chuck

Schumer`s comments I think were reprehensible. I think that Donald Trump`s

constant comments about judges are reprehensible. And I don`t mean saying,

I disagree with the ruling or this judge was wrong. That`s OK. That`s fine.

It`s the personal attacks.


It`s, you know, it`s Schumer referring to the Supreme Court justices not as

justice but by their last names and, you know, sounding like he`s talking

about a threat. But, look, let`s be clear. This isn`t just about Chuck

Schumer. Donald Trump has a long history here of doing this with regard to

judges. And if we can`t trust our judges, then we`ve got nothing.


WILLIAMS: Do you agree that maybe Bush versus Gore was a watermark and a

lot of people kind of smartened up to think, oh, man, was the political fix

in on a case like that?


ABRAMS: You know, I understand that, I mean, in the sense that it was a

five to four ruling divided along political lines. The Supreme Court

pronounced that you can`t use it as precedent, which is sort of a crazy

thing to say.




ABRAMS: We`re issuing this ruling but you can never cite it again –




ABRAMS: – in the future. I mean, that does sort of raise alarm bells. But

you know what? We still – I still believe strongly we have to accept

rulings like that, whether you agree with it, you don`t agree with it, you

think it was politicized, you don`t think it was politicized. You know,

once we start breaking down the faith in our judges, call them the Obama

judge and the Trump judge, and, you know, I think then we have no arbiters.

We have no refs anymore.


And then we`re in big trouble. Whenever people say to me, you think we`re

in a constitutional crisis? My answer is no, because people are still

abiding by court rulings.


WILLIAMS: All I can say to people is if you want to know the role of a

branding iron in what was the America of this time, if you want to meet Sam

Adams before he was a Lager, this is your book, this is your author.


Dan Abrams, the new book is called, “John Adams Under Fire: The Founding

Father`s Fight For Justice In The Boston Massacre Murder Trial. A great

pleasure having you on.


ABRAMS: Sir, thank you for having me on.


WILLIAMS: Coming up, a warning about what you might be reading these days

and where it might be coming from.




WILLIAMS: Last thing before we go here tonight, a warning from the State

Department, and here is the headline in “The Washington Post.” “Millions Of

Tweets Peddled Conspiracy Theories About Coronavirus In Other Countries, An

Unpublished U.S. Report Says, the wrongful harmful posts floated a number

of hoaxes, suggesting, for example, that the coronavirus had been created

by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation or was the result of a bioweapon.”


Another “Post” article goes further, names the suspect here and we quote.

“A top State Department official said Thursday that Russia is behind swarms

of online, false personas that sought to spread misinformation about

coronavirus on social media sites, stressing the entire ecosystem of

Russian disinformation is at play.”


For that reason, on twitter, for example, when you search coronavirus now,

there is a redirect that appears on the screen pointing you to the CDC.

Their facts have been employed over the past few days to point out where

the President has been shading the truth about the coronavirus. And this

additional bit should be said. We even have to be wary of misinformation

from our elected officials. There`s a predicate for this.


For starters, the Members of Congress willing to repeat Russian talking

points in defense of Trump when the subject was Ukraine. Misinformation

just needs the imprimatur of someone who seems reputable. Then it starts to

look and sound like actual information.


And with that, that is our broadcast on this Thursday night. Thank you so

much for being here with us. Good night from our NBC News headquarters here

in New York.






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