IE 11 is not supported. For an optimal experience visit our site on another browser.

2020 Democrats focus on Iowa. TRANSCRIPT: 9/20/19, The 11th Hour w/ Brian Williams.

Guests: Adam Entous, Jon Meacham, Abby Livingston

BRIAN WILLIAMS, MSNBC HOST: Tonight the stark question: Did the President use the powers of his office to pressure a foreign government to help himself and hurt his opponent? The whistle blower story, is that potentially explosive with a new report now claiming the president pushed Ukraine eight times in one conversation. 

And about Donald Trump`s interest in Joe Biden`s son, tonight we`ll talk with the only reporter who has interviewed him, about his foreign business deals.

Plus, as the Trump`s were hosting a state dinner tonight, across the river at the Pentagon came the announcement that the U.S. troops are heading to the Gulf to keep the Saudis safe as THE 11TH HOUR gets under way this Friday night.

At the end of another week, good evening once again from our NBC News headquarters here in New York.  Day 974 of the Trump administration.  For guests and tonight`s state dinner for the Australian prime minister, an intent erected over the Rose, it`s a glittery night but all that glitters does not adequately describe the news we are covering out of this administration this evening.

For starters, the Pentagon announcement late today, U.S. is sending a modest force, several hundred men and women in uniform along with armaments to Saudi Arabia as a response to the attack on the nation`s oil installations, costing them 5 percent to 6 percent of their total output.

Then there`s the main topic, whatever the President said during a phone call with the leader of Ukraine that was troubling enough to cause a whistleblower complaint to go up the chain of command in the Intelligence Community.  "The Wall Street Journal" first to report that in a July phone call, Trump repeatedly pressured the president of Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden`s son asking eight times for him to work with Rudy Giuliani on the inquiry that could damage his chief Democratic opponent ultimately.

The Associated Press has matched the reporting on the phone call in a piece co-written by reporter Jonathan Lemire who was standing by to join us.

This afternoon at the White House, Trump was asked about the new revelation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  It`s a ridiculous story.  It`s a partisan whistleblower.  They shouldn`t even have information.  I`ve had conversations with many leaders.  They`re always appropriate.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Have you read (INAUDIBLE)?

TRUMP:  I just tell you, it is -- everybody`s read it.  They laugh it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS:  On Wednesday "The Washington Post" reported that the whistleblower complaint about Trump`s communication with a foreign leader included a promise.  There have been questions about whether Trump`s push for an investigation into the Biden`s was tied to a package of military aid to Ukraine.  This package of aid has been approved by Congress meant to defend Ukrain against, wait for it, Russia.

Today`s reports in the "The Journal, "The Post," and AP, each cite a single unnamed source who says there was no discussion of that aid in the said July phone call.  We do not know if the source in all three reports is the same person.

Nevertheless, Jeremy Bash, former Chief of Staff at both CIA and the Pentagon told our colleague Nicole Wallace today, he thinks Trump could be facing potential legal trouble.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEREMY BASH, FMR. CIA CHIEF OF STAFF:  Assuming the reports are true, I see three crimes here.  One is extortion by the President which is basically using a threat, a threat of withholding aid to obtain something of value.  A second crime is conspiracy to engage in extortion between the President and Rudy Giuliani.  And a third crime is conspiracy to violate federal election law between the President and Rudy Giuliani to obtain foreign interference in the United States election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS:  Jeremy Bash who is among other things, a Harvard educated lawyer, the Ukrainian President will meet with Trump in person here in New York next week at the opening of the U.N. general assembly.

You may be wondering how Rudy Giuliani and the Biden`s figuring all of this.  Giuliani has alleged Biden tried to have Ukraine`s top prosecutor ousted in 2016 because of an investigation into Ukrainian natural gas company.  At the time Hunter Biden was serving on that company`s board.  While Biden was opposed to the prosecutor because of issues involving corruption, there is no proof that his -- he was trying to protect his son with that action.

Last night on CNN, Giuliani first denied asking Ukraine to investigate Biden, only to then admit it seconds later.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR:  Did you ask the Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden?

RUDY GIULIANI, DONALD TRUMP`S ATTORNEY:  No, actually I didn`t.  I asked the Ukraine to investigate the allegations that there was interference in the election of 2016 by the Ukrainians for the benefit of Hillary Clinton - -

CUOMO:  You never asked anything about Hunter Biden?  You never asked anything about Joe Biden and his role with the prosecutor?

GIULIANI:  The only thing I asked about Joe Biden is to get to the bottom of how it was that Lutsenko, who was appointed --

CUOMO:  Right.

GIULIANI:  -- dismissed the case against --

CUOMO:  So, you did ask Ukraine to look into Joe Biden?

GIULIANI:  Of course I did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS:  Today Joe Biden called Trump and Giuliani`s allegations not credible, and he added this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  The President should start to be president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS:  Late this afternoon, Biden further issued a statement about these latest reports on Trump`s conversations with the Ukrainian leader which said in part and we quote, "If these reports are true, then there is truly no bottom to President Trump`s willingness to abuse his power and abase our country.  Donald Trump should immediately release the transcript of the call in question and direct the Office of the Director of National Intelligence to stop stonewalling and release the whistleblower notification to the Congress."

Lot to talk about, as we say, as we end another week.  And here for our lead off discussion on a Friday night, Frank Figliuzzi, former FBI Assistant Director for Counterintelligence, Shannon Pettypiece, veteran journalist who is now Senior White House Reporter for NBC News Digital, and Jonathan Lemire, White House Reporter for the Associated Press.

Jonathan, your name was invoked earlier.  You get to start us off.  What`s your read of the White House comfort level?  Because we`re seeing this defense emerge.  President can say anything he wishes and everything he says is proper.

JONATHAN LEMIRE, ASSOCIATED PRESS WHITE HOUSE REPORTER:  Well, tonight is an idyllic scene at the White House.  The state dinner with the Australian prime minister is just wrapping up.  He`s in the Rose Garden.  The Marine Corps Band is playing "Battle Hymn of the Republic."  But behind the scenes there`s definitely some tumult and concern as to -- as this news comes to light.

There`s been reporting throughout in the "Wall Street Journal" today, it was first on the board switching in the subject matter of the phone call between President Trump and the new Ukrainian president back in July.  In that call, the President pushed his Ukrainian counterpart to look into these allegations that he and Rudy Giuliani had been floating for a while now about Hunter Biden, vice -- former vice president`s son in the Ukraine.  As you noted, there has been reporting tonight according to sources that people have spoke -- number of the outlets have spoken to suggesting there was no quid pro quo offered which differs from -- there were some reporting earlier in the week.  That is something that certainly we are still getting at the bottom of.

WILLIAMS:  That`s at the crux of the whistleblower case.

LEMIRE:  Certainly is.  And that`s something that the Democratic Congress wants to know as well is that part of this here (ph).  It is what the President has done, but also suddenly not the flash point between the whistleblower and inspector general and keeping that information from Congress.

But let`s also take big picture here.  That phone call with Ukrainian President took place one day after Special Counsel Robert Mueller testified before Congress.  His somewhat faltering performance was viewed by some in the White House as sort of the end of the Russia probe.  That shadow had finally been lifted from -- over the West Wing.  The very next day it appears that President Trump was seeking foreign interference, foreign help, against another political rival, in this case, Joe Biden.

So -- and this comes also after he has said openly in the interview with George Stephanopoulos this spring that he would be amenable to taking foreign electoral help despite the outcries from Democrats, even some Republicans.  So this is something -- this -- the story is not going away.  The President is going to down play it.  He can revel tonight in the state dinner or the United Nation`s General Assembly on the horizon for next week.  But Democrats have been pushing for this and they`re going to demand some answers as to what was actually said in that phone call.

WILLIAMS:  In fact, Shannon, your piece went up under your byline talking about the play book they`re using here.  Tell us what you found.

SHANNON PETTYPIECE, NBC NEWS.COM SR. WHITE HOUSE REPORTER:  Right.  And Jonathan kind of addressed this as well.  First the President will deny these -- any accusations, whether it is this, whether it is collusion with Russia, whether it is payments to an adult film actress.  He denies.  But at the same time says, well, even if I did do it, there was nothing wrong with that.

Then he will deflect.  There`s always seems to be some subplot at play here.  In this case there is the subplot.  He`s trying to divert attention to about and what the Bidens` might have been up to in Ukraine.  Very similar to the Russia investigate the investigators narrative that they were trying to push.

And I feel Giuliani in the CNN interview got exactly what he wanted for months because he has been pushing to reporters for months and months this story about the Bidens` and the Ukraine and corruption there.  And so, finally now that`s on the national stage because of this whistleblower attempt.

And then finally they will discredit.  So, like the investigate the investigators, you know, the President will call this a partisan witch hunt.  He already accused the whistleblower of being partisan which he said he doesn`t know who the whistleblower is at the same time, so how can he know they are partisan?  How can anybody around him know because as far as I`m aware, the whistleblower`s identity is not supposed to be something shared widely by the White House.

WILLIAMS:  By definition.  Yes.

PETTYPIECE:  But nonetheless he goes forward and says that this is just a partisan attack.  And so that`s what we`ll see.  And then when Democrats in Congress try to investigate it, again, it will now all of a sudden go into the realm of politics just like the Russia investigation or just like investigations into emoluments.

And, I think, their end goal, like with the Russia investigation, is for everyone to be confused, to sort of throw up their hands and say, I don`t know which side is which here and hope that there is a slice of the electorate that just gives up and moves on to the next story.

WILLIAMS:  OK, Frank, you are closer.  We`re talking politics up here, we`re talking strategy largely.  Talk to us about the laws governing public corruption.

FRANK FIGLIUZZI, FMR. FBI ASSIST. DIRECTOR FOR COUNTERINTELLIGENCE:  So, Brian, I think what everyone needs to understand that if this was anybody but the President, let`s make this the local county commissioner and the same set of facts, public official seeking something of value, in this case an investigation of his political opponent in return for a promise indirect or direct.  It can be an implied promise of -- that he`s going to take an official act on your behalf if you do what he wants.  That case gets opened at the local FBI office.  That`s what we`re talking about here.  It`s not that complicated.

The most widely used law, federally, against public corruption says just that.  A public official can`t seek directly or indirectly a thing of value in return for a promise of an official act.  It could be implied.

So, what are we talking about here?  We`re talking about a quarter billion dollars in military aide.

Brian, if I have the ability to give you are a quarter billion dollars and I say to you in a phone call or maybe eight times in a phone call or subsequent phone calls, hey Brian, there`s this thing I want you to do for me, you`re going to infer that that`s linked to you getting the cash from me.  And that case gets opened at the local FBI office.  It doesn`t matter.  This reporting we`re hearing from sources who are telling various major media outlets, hey, there was no quid pro quo, he never linked it to the military aid.

Let me tell you something about that.  Back in the FBI, in the Counterintelligence days when I was there, if we found out that three different agencies were getting the exact same story from a source or multiple sources, we would look suspiciously at that source.  What am I saying?  I think that sounds like spin coming from the White House.  Oh, there wasn`t a quid pro quo.

The President just talked about Biden.  It doesn`t matter.  It can be implied or indirect.  There`s a problem here legally for the President.

WILLIAMS:  First of all, frank, let there be no mistake, I`m calling the FBI and telling them the former head of Counter Intel just offered me a quarter billion dollars.  So watch yourself there.

Secondly and more seriously, what would you have be done about this?  What`s the remedy in your view?

FIGLIUZZI:  Well, in a system where nothing seems to be working and where we`ve based everything on the presumption that people will do the right thing, the system is failing us.  So, about a week from now we`re going to see allegedly the acting DNI testify before the House Intelligence Committee.  If he is not forthcoming with this, and boy, I hesitate to say this as someone who investigated leaks during my career, and supervised investigations, this whistleblower needs to report a crime to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.  What`s the crime?  Public corruption.  We just talked about what that statute is.

And that needs to be -- that case needs to be opened.  Now, people are going to hear that and say, well, wait a minute, the FBI reports to the DOJ.  The DOJ is headed by Attorney General Barr.  Attorney General Barr has already weighed in on this.  But let me tell you something.  If the complaint comes in and it`s valid and credible and looks like a federal violation, that case will be opened.

WILLIAMS:  Jonathan, I wrote down some names, part of the red wall that Trump enjoys in the U.S. Senate.  I`d like to hear from Collins, Portman, Sasse, and Blunt among others.  Do you think we will?

LEMIRE:  So far we haven`t.  There`s been real silence from Republicans in the Senate on this matter.  And, well, there has been reluctance throughout.

Time and time again when the President has pushed norms or broken conventions or seemingly, even potentially, stepped across the law of legality.  There have been few Republicans.  And those who did have either retired, lost re-election, or in John McCain`s case, passed away.  Those who are still in the Senate have largely been -- have been silent.

The names you just mentioned are those who perhaps -- and I might add Mitt Romney to it --

WILLIAMS:  Sure.

LEMIRE:  -- someone who might be feeling like they feel comfortable to say so.  They feel like that they are speaking for the party, they feel they have safety in their constituents or, conversely, are facing a very tough re-election fight.  And therefore, like say, a Collins or a Gardner in Colorado might feel compelled to speak because they think that their voters are going to disapprove of what the President has been doing.

To this point we have silence.  We don`t know yet -- I think they`re probably making the calculation of how long this story going to last?  How serious is this going to be?

It certainly seems to have some real steam.  The President was not shy talking about it today.  He of course belittled it every chance he could get both in the Oval Office and then later in the day in the White House as well.  But this is something the Democrats are going to push on, Chairman Schiff has made clear that they`re going to go as far as they can, and they`re going to go to court if needed to be able to get the information they need from this whistleblower.  So I think at some point, and maybe it`s not for few day, these Republican senators are going to have a microphone in their face and they`re going to have to say one way or another whether they approve of what the President did.

WILLIAMS:  Shannon you get the last word because it occurs to me that tonight deployment orders went out to sons and daughters and moms and dads and they`re going over to the Gulf in effect to form a kind of dome of human and technological support of protection for Saudi Arabia.  I don`t mean to be cynical about it, but is this the U.S. being seen doing something?

PETTYPIECE:  Yes, it is doing something.  It is -- there`s been a question perpetually what can the U.S. do against Iran?  They have really sanctioned them to the very farthest levels of sanctions even though they were able to find one more to throw on the pile today.  You know, they`ve really put an enormous toll on the Iranian economy.

The President obviously does not want to go to war.  He`s been open about that directly.  Indirectly he is a president who ran on a campaign of getting the U.S. out of war, is not getting them involved.  So, the question is what can you do, what can you do, what can you do without, you know, getting this into direct military conflict.  So, this is something they can do.

But once again, it takes up the temperature.  And increases that risk that either side is going to miscalculate how far they can push the other one before we do find ourselves in direct conflict.  So, just this one step, you never know when it`s going to be the one step too far that`s going to tip the balance of sort of a face off into a real hot conflict.

WILLIAMS:  And I keep being told what will change the world about this story is the rise of drones and their ability to swarm a target not always matching our best defenses.

As we said, a lot to talk about tonight and our thanks to our big three for starting us off so well, Frank Figliuzzi, Shannon Pettypiece, Jonathan Lemire, we greatly appreciate it on a Friday night.

Coming up, we`ll talk to a reporter who was granted rare access to talk about a deeply emotional day for Joe Biden.

And later two Presidential historians weigh in on foreign powers, Presidential elections, and just where we find ourselves right now as THE 11TH HOUR is just getting started on this Friday night.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Did you discuss Joe Biden, his son, or his family with the --

TRUMP:  It doesn`t matter what I discussed, but I will say this, somebody ought to look into Joe Biden`s statement because it was disgraceful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS:  The investigation the President is referring to dates back to when Joe Biden was vice president and his son Hunter was working for a Ukrainian energy company.

Here to explain how we got where we are, someone who has spoken extensively with Hunter Biden, Adam Entous, the veteran journalist and staff writer for the New Yorkers.

So Adam, make the turn from hunter gatherer, you`ll forgive me, to hunter whisperer and tell us about Hunter Biden.  What was he doing in Ukraine?  Was it on the up and up in your view?  And how much did Joe Biden know?

ADAM ENTOUS, THE NEW YORKER STAFF WRITER:  So, one of Biden`s -- one of Hunter Biden`s business partners had met an oligarch who was running Burisma, the Ukrainian gas company, and he offered his -- Hunter`s associate position on his board.  And as part of that, eventually that same executive offered to bring Hunter on the board.

The rule that Hunter had was that he didn`t tell his father about his clients.  He didn`t tell his father about these things, and his father didn`t ask.  It was sort of don`t ask don`t tell policy.  So, Hunter took the job which was quite lucrative and he didn`t tell his father and he didn`t consult.  And then the news broke in the newspaper in the "Wall Street Journal" in 2014.

But it`s unclear whether Joe Biden even saw the reports at the time.  And it wasn`t until much later that one of his state department advisers briefed him on Hunter`s role with the company.

WILLIAMS:  And what did the people around -- was anyone saying, look, Mr. Vice President, this is a bad look, not withstanding any agreement you have with your son, don`t ask/don`t tell?

ENTOUS:  No, they didn`t feel comfortable saying that to Joe Biden.  They knew that Joe`s relationship with his two sons was very personal for him.  And frankly, I think they were afraid to raise it with him.  So they largely kept it to themselves as far as I could tell except for one state department official which raised it shortly before a newspaper published a story detailing this relationship that Hunter had with Burisma.  And it was sort of a head`s up that he was giving to Joe Biden in case he was asked questions about it by the media during a visit to Kiev.

WILLIAMS:  I`m sorry to ask you to come to a judgment, but in your view do you think we`ll hear from Hunter Biden before this is over?

ENTOUS:  I don`t know.  I mean I would say that Hunter doesn`t really think that there`s anything wrong with what he did.  You know, many people at the state department who were working on Ukraine thought that it was very problematic because here we were, Joe Biden in particular, taking the lead trying to tell the Ukrainians that they needed to combat corruption.  And here you had, you know, the son of the vice president who was -- had this lucrative role with this company.  So, it was -- you know, I think it is definitely was a questionable decision that Hunter made accepting this position on the board when his father was playing such a key role.

And it`s obvious that the executives at the company wanted Hunter on the board so they could say they had a Biden on the board.  That said, you know, what Giuliani and what the President have done to try to get a foreign government, especially one that is historically weak against the Russians, having the United States put that kind of pressure on them to effectively dig up dirt on Hunter is a totally different level of questionable behavior.

WILLIAMS:  I`m going to show you something along with members of our audience.  This is Joe Biden today in Iowa speaking to reporters when an eagle flew overhead.  The rest will be self-explanatory.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN:  I just want you to know I`ve got an eagle on my lake.  An eagle bald eagle on my lake.  And I tell you what, they`re incredible.  But I see him.

By the way, you know, my son loved the house I live in, my deceased son Beau, attorney general and a war hero (ph).  And he used to love to come over and sit on the 10 acre pond that`s behind our, the house I built.  And-- that`s too personal.  Anyway, he loved to sit there and just watch the eagle come and land on the other side of the lake.

And it`s funny, the night he died I came home and sat in his chair on the little dock kind of like this but 1/5 the size and I watched an eagle take off.  And it circled and circled and circled and flew away.  I haven`t seen the eagle since.  So maybe that`s my Beau.

Sorry.  I shouldn`t have gone there.  Sorry.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS:  So, Adam, that was Joe Biden today.  And for better or worse, by way of explaining the guy to all those of us who have been around him, that`s Joe Biden.  And that`s why I`m sure this story does hit him hard.

ENTOUS:  Yes.  There`s no question that, you know, his relationship with his two boys was incredibly intense and the relationship between the two brothers was incredibly intense.

You know, when he decided not to run in 2016, I think, you know, the public explanation for that was that it was because of Beau`s death and that he hadn`t completed the mourning process.  But I think part of the decision that Biden made was also his concerns about his other son, Hunter, who was going through some very difficult personal struggles at the time with drug addiction.

And you know, seeing, I think, you know, from talking to Hunter about this, you know, the relationship between Hunter and his father is very important to both of them.  And, you know, there was one moment -- I can`t remember if it was in the piece that I did.  It might have been cut out.  But they, you know, would apologize to each other because Joe Biden, you know, knew that the only reason that Trump was going after Hunter was because Joe Biden was running for president.  And Hunter would apologize to his father because he knew that, you know, his business activities were causing his father political problems.  So, that`s the nature of the relationship between the two of them.

WILLIAMS:  Adam Entous of the New Yorker, a great pleasure to have you on the broadcast.  Much obliged to you for joining us on a Friday night.

ENTOUS:  Thank you.

WILLIAMS:  Coming up for us here, looking forward with two people who make their living by looking back.  We`ll hear from Michael Beschloss and Jon Meacham when we continue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATES:  I don`t know the identity of the whistleblower.  I just hear it`s a partisan person, meaning it comes out from another party.  But I don`t have any idea, but I can say that it was a totally appropriate conversation.  It was actually a beautiful conversation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS:  So, there`s that.  Multiple reports now that President Trump urged the leader of Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden`s son while perhaps holding US assistance in the balance during a call between the two leaders, apparently overheard the issue apparently at the center of this new whistleblower complaint that has taken Washington by storm.

We have two very special guests here with us tonight to talk about it.  Jon Meacham, Pulitzer Prize-winning Author and Presidential Historian, his newest work coauthored with Tim McGraw is "Songs of America."  Jon will be playing his acoustic favorites this weekend at Snuffy`s on Route 22 in Scotch Plains, New Jersey.  And thankfully, we`re also joined by Michael Beschloss, NBC News Presidential Historian and Author, the latest of his many works is "Presidents of War."  Gentlemen, good evening to you both.

And, Michael, one of the things Jon and love about you is the fact that you can speak to a topic like the history of modern government oversight which is no older than any of the three of us in this conversation. 

MICHAEL BESCHLOSS, NBC NEWS PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN:  Exactly right, you know, especially with intelligence agencies.  You know, Brian, in the 1950s when the CIA was expanding, Dwight Eisenhower was president and not everything they did went right.  There was an effort to build a spy tunnel under Berlin, for instance.

And so, Eisenhower began bringing in consultants to help him assessed whether they were doing the right thing.  The other thing he did was he asked leaders of the CIA, notably Allen Dulles, to speak quietly to people like the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee to sort of let them know a little bit about what was going on.

And then, you move up to the 1970s and there were some big failures at the time of Watergate, and people felt that it should be more formalized.  And that`s the time the intelligence committees in the House and Senate really began.

WILLIAMS:  Jon, are you confident?  Do you have faith in the system?  Will the norms in this case as it goes forward, will they hold?

JON MEACHAM, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN:  Well, I certainly hope so.  And I think my own bet is that they do, but there`s no guarantee.  I think to me one of the most interesting things about this particular episode is, it tends to -- presidential wrong doing tends, or allegations of it, tend to come to public attention through leaks to the Fourth Estate, right?  The media plays this role.

To me what`s so interesting about the whistleblower complaint is this person apparently did not go to the New York Times or the Washington Post, or try to find Bob Woodward in a parking garage, you know, it was didn`t, you know, no pumpkin papers.  And so --

BESCHLOSS:  But they`ve torn down that garage. 

MEACHAM:  Well, that`s -- see, another reason that Beschloss is here.  He has to know various --

BESCHLOSS:  That`s monumental trivia.

MEACHAM:  The -- and Howard Johnson is gone, right? 

BESCHLOSS:  Right.  I`ve been made into -- we can go on all night, I better not say it.

MEACHAM:  So, this is playing out within the governmental structure in a way that most of the time complaints/allegations don`t.  I think that makes this in a way even more interesting.  This is someone presumably who has faith in those norms.  And that may be more important than my opinion of it.

WILLIAMS:  But also, Michael, I have to inject this.  We`re watching witness intimidation in real time.  Rudy last night, the President today, we don`t have a name.  We don`t know a gender or a department.  But they`re going after this person and this act they`ve committed.

BESCHLOSS:  Well, if that`s true, there are precedents for people doing this in history, in American history with those kind of pressures.

WILLIAMS:  We`re going to ask you both to stay with us over a break.  When we come back, the next part of our conversation, why does it seem like foreign policy always has a funny way of sneaking into our presidential elections?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP:  The easiest thing I can do, OK, go ahead.  Knock out 15 different major things in Iran.  I could do that and all set to go.  It`s all set to go.  But I`m not looking to do that if I can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS:  Earlier today, the Trump administration did announce a new round of sanctions against Iran following the attack that took out part of the Saudi oil production facility that the US blames on Iran despite their continued denials.  As we mentioned earlier, Pentagon sending a modest force, couple hundred American men and women to Saudi Arabia and the UAE.  Defense Secretary Mark Esper calls the move defensive in nature with a focus on air and missile defense.

Back with tonight, are Jon Meacham and Michael Beschloss.  Michael, we had this conversation in this studio last night.  If you want to know about the ability of foreign policy, a, and b, Iran specifically to disrupt a presidential election, ask two-term US President Jimmy Carter.

BESCHLOSS:  Right, who did not make it to the second term as you well know.  And that was because there were 50 American hostages that were still locked up and Carter decided not to use force to try to get them out, although to this day he thinks that had he done so he might have gotten reelected.

But that`s one of the most important things that a president does is decide, you know, whether something is worth going to war for or not.  John Adams kept the nation from going to war.  He felt an unnecessary war against France during his one term, lost re-election because of that.

On the other hand, you had famously Abraham Lincoln waging the Civil War after Fort Sumter and Franklin Roosevelt getting America involved in World War II after Pearl Harbor.  So not only is this important in terms of determining an election, it has a lot to do with the way that historians later on view a president in history.

WILLIAMS:  Jon Meacham, for this president, it is still a whole new world when talking about the equipment and the contours of what he has at his disposal at the Pentagon, US military worldwide.  When he`s been briefed on something, he tends to talk about it, mention it all the time, witness the F-35 which he mentions constantly.

At the same time, Jon, the other prong of this has been a life spent in diplomacy.  The men and women who are desk officers at the State Department, career public servants.  It`s literally studying the Persian culture in this case is literally their life`s work.  Are you convinced that that kind of rigor still goes on?

MEACHAM:  Oh, I think the work goes on.  Whether the president pays attention to it is entirely different.  Some of our best foreign policy presidents, I think Michael would agree, have been the presidents who not only took the briefings but wanted to talk to the officers and the people who had helped prepare them.  George H. W. Bush --

BESCHLOSS:  Exactly what I was thinking of as Jon has written so well. 

MEACHAM:  Yes, wanting to reach out to people, wanting to know where -- not just where something came from, but what was their thinking.

And so, I do think that work goes forward.  Iran, it`s remarkable when you think about it.  So, we`ve had almost a 40-year saga here with that particular country.  There`s the Carter example obviously.  Iran Contra which fundamentally shaped President Reagan`s second term and nearly cost George Bush the presidency in 1988, and was still haunting him as he left office when Clinton came in.

The Iran/Iraq question is hugely important.  One of the reasons for the second Iraq war was that Saddam Hussein was an irrational actor, and one of the pieces of evidence for that is that he invaded Iran when it was unwise to do so.

So, it`s an unfolding drama.  And I would argue that Iran and the future of Saudi Arabia require a cold war-like generational, multi-generational strategy.  This is not something that can be knocked out or fixed in a news cycle or a tweet.

WILLIAMS:  I wish I could promise we would see that.  Our thanks to both of these gentlemen, to Jon Meacham, to Michael Beschloss, greatly appreciate you both joining us on a Friday night to round out this week.

Coming up for us, he may have been the tallest candidate but he came up short.  Now, the Democratic field has been paired way back to a barebones 17 candidates.  The story when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WILLIAMS:  The 2020 Democratic candidates turning their focus back to Iowa this weekend.  And the Democratic field shrunk by one today, Bill de Blasio polling at 0 percent in our latest poll announced in this very studio today he is getting out of the race.

Tomorrow morning`s hometown paper, the New York Post cover features a short obituary, let`s call it, for his now deceased dream of being our president.  Have no fear, however, has at least 17 other Democrats will be in Des Moines for the traditional Polk County Steak Fry among the larger political events in the state, despite this weekend`s horrendous weather cast, weather forecast rather for Des Moines.

For more, we are happy to welcome to the broadcast Abby Livingston, Washington Bureau Chief for the Texas Tribune.  And you know the other guy, Steve Kornacki, our National Political Correspondent.  Welcome to you both.

Abby, who`s making waves and generating interest on the ground in Iowa, and who is not and maybe should?

ABBY LIVINGSTON, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF FOR THE TEXAS TRIBUNE:  Well, I think the one who is not and shouldn`t know is Senator Kamala Harris, since she`s basically said she`s in certain terms of US capital.  She`s going to relocate there.

WILLIAMS:  Language we can`t use, yes.

LIVINGSTONE:  And so, but the one on everyone`s mind and I wouldn`t -- I don`t know if it`s specifically with Iowa, but the name on every Democratic consultant`s list right now is Elizabeth Warren.  And it started in June where it was this sort of sheepish I think she might be the dark horse.

And now, there`s almost a sense that there`s so much momentum in her favor right now, that while she may not be at the top of the polls, everything is going in the right direction for her.

WILLIAMS:  Steve Kornacki, how does Iowa differ from the nation at large, and what`s the danger inherent with the Iowa caucus process is its own world, but what you say and do out there often counts toward how people see you in the general election?

STEVE KORNACKI, MSNBC NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT:  Yes, it`s interesting.  I mean, so caucuses, not a primary, what you think about people who have to go out there and show up for three hours, stay in the room, they have those multiple rounds of voting.

So it takes a little bit more commitment.  It tends to attract the Iowa caucuses do on the Democratic side, a much more liberal, more activist- oriented electorate.  So think of candidate who are more, you talk about Elizabeth Warren starting to move up there.

That`s a pretty natural constituency for her in a lot of ways.  And, you know, the cliche is that Iowa is an important state.  I think the importance is even more so in 2020.  You got Joe Biden, look, if he could win Iowa, you could see that setting off a cascade of victories for him.  He proves his legitimacy as the front-runner.  But if he loses, you could see it turning on him the other way pretty fast.

WILLIAMS:  And so, we see these advance strategies, the campaigns that are saying these early states just aren`t important to us if they start to feel it going south a little.

KORNACKI:  But we`ve seen that strategy has never worked, right?  Rudy Giuliani was going to be president of Florida.

WILLIAMS:  Pay not attention to what this guy is saying.

KORNACKI:  Right.  Rudy saw the polls in Iowa.  In New Hampshire, he said, you know what, I`ll start my campaign in Florida, got nowhere.  You go back about 30 years, Al Gore, when he ran in 1988.  He said, I`m not going to win Iowa.  I`m not going to win New Hampshire.  I`ll jump start it in the south.  We`d yet to see the first candidate in the modern era successfully jumpstart it.

WILLIAMS:  Abby, Beto O`Rourke, he is polling in our poll right now, at 1 percent.  However driven by pure emotion and good intentions, at the last debate, he handed the Republicans their attack ad for the next cycle, we are coming to get your guns, in fact.  And this week, he took a public swing at Chuck Schumer, the Senate Minority Leader, should he have to work on his people skills if he wants to advance within the Democratic Party?

LIVINGSTONE:  Well, the thought that crossed my mind with both of those incidents was, I just came back from last week in Harris County, Houston.  And the thing from the wealthiest donors to the kids who were door knocking I heard over and over about Congressman O`Rourke was, I wish he`d run for Senate.

And when he made that AR-15 comment, that`s a very difficult thing to do and run statewide in Texas or on the national ticket, and think you`re going to put the state in play.

And so -- and then, picking a fight with Schumer is just another ball game of the Senate.  So I don`t foresee him downshifting into a Senate race with this sort of, this sort of commentaries.

WILLIAMS:  So you hear the same thing in Texas, it`s become as you know fashionable for national Democrats to toss off these names and name someone good for a Senate contest back home who still clinging with this presidential race, but you do hear within the confines of the state.

LIVINGSTONE:  There is some chatter, there -- it`s just hopefulness, people who supported him back in the Senate race, and they really weren`t too enthusiastic about him running for president.  And so, but whether that Senate race -- there is a sense, at least before these comments, that he could have really put the seat in play, and really given cornin a run for his money while the current Democratic candidate field is really struggling for name identification and to break through.

WILLIAMS:  Let`s talk about New York, Steve.  Let`s talk about a tweet from Donald Trump this morning, when it was apparent that Bill de Blasio was going to deprive the nation of that de Blasio zest, that political talent, "Oh, no, really big political news, perhaps the biggest story in years.  Part-time mayor of New York City, Bill de Blasio, who was polling at a solid zero but had tremendous room for growth, has shocking dropped out of the presidential race.  NYC is devastated, he`s coming home."

It`s tough to find trolling that effective, though he was polling at exactly 0 percent in our last one.

KORNACKI:  Yes, I know, what a surprise Trump jumped into that one.  But I mean, we talk about, I mentioned Giuliani a minute ago.  The track record of New York City mayors, a city of 8 million people.

WILLIAMS:  Jon Lindsay tried.

KORNACKI:  Jon Lindsay got nowhere in `72, Giuliani got a delegate in 2008.  You got to go back to 1812, James Madison`s opponent was a New York City mayor.  He lost as well to DeWitt Clinton.

There`s never been a New York City mayor who has been elected president.  And the last time a New York City mayor even won office higher than New York City mayor, so like governor, senator, something statewide New York.  You got to go back to 1869, the last time that happened.

So for all of the sort of majesty of that office, the track record to advance is not good with that.

WILLIAMS:  Last question, do either of you see anything, for good or ill, involving the Biden campaign because he is in play right now, vis-a-vis Donald Trump, in this huge whistleblower story.  Is it too early to say whether this will blow back or give him an odd kind of boost?

LIVINGSTONE:  Maybe an odd kind of boost because it might be good to be up against Trump.  But this does not appear to be a good story for the family.  But Hunter Biden was eventually going to come up maybe just sooner rather than later.

WILLIAMS:  Steve? 

KORNACKI:  Yes.  No, it`s the same thing.  I think it`s a complicated one because let`s see what the full details there on the Biden side.  But just in terms of how outraged Democrats are by the story about Trump`s behavior, to be the phase of the other side of that, there`s got to be some benefit from that I would think.

WILLIAMS:  I can`t thank you both enough for spending part of your Friday night with us.  To Abby Livingstone, to Steve Kornacki, much obliged.

Coming up for us, the President is recommending a stopover to break up a long journey.  But this time it`s not at a Trump-owned or Trump-themed property.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WILLIAMS:  There it is.  Last thing before we go here tonight, this President loves talking about mars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP:  We`re looking at mars by the way.  Sending humans to mars.  Very soon we`re going to mars.  We`ll be going to mars very soon.  We will now win the race to mars.  Mars is waiting for us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS:  And in the Oval Office again today, he talked about mars with an added wrinkle of a stopover en route.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP:  We`re going to mars.  We`re stopping at the moon.  The moon is actually a launching pad.  That`s why we`re stopping at the moon.  I said, hey, we`ve already done the moon, that`s not so exciting.  They said, no, sir, it`s a launching pad for mars.

So we`ll be doing the moon, but we`re really be doing mars.  And we`ll be - - we`re making tremendous progress.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS:  So here`s the deal, the moon is three days away, give or take.  If you go straight through, don`t stop for gas or snacks or restroom.  Mars is a six-month flight, minimum.

So here`s the math, if you only spend a day on the surface of mars, that`s a year out and back.  Then there`s the matter of supporting the life of your crew for a year, plus any time spent on that surface.  It is a highly inhospitable environment.  For starters, no human has been there.

The best estimates for any mars mission begin about the year 2030.  It therefore seems conceivable that Mike Pence in his role as White House liaison to the space force will inform the boss that the time table may have to be push back.

And with that, that is our broadcast for this Friday night and for this week.  Goodnight from our NBC News headquarters here in New York.

  THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.                                                                                                     END