CHRIS MATTHEWS, host: Today on THE CHRIS MATTHEWS SHOW, it's Edwards vs. Kerry with New York the battle ground and boardroom corruption the backdrop.

Meanwhile, the rumble in the country: Gay marriage, one Godly movie and those damn Yankees.

Those are the week's hottest issues, and we'll get to everything on today's show.

Two-man fight. The Democrats reach the finals. Can Edwards exploit Enron and Martha Stewart to cherry-pick the Big Apple?

Get a job. Can President Bush meet his goal of 2.6 million new ones?

Leaving your heart. San Francisco puts a human face on same-sex weddings. Will America like what it sees?

And A-Rod as a New York Yankee. Has George Steinbrenner tilted the level playing field of the national pastime?

Plus, Howard Dean's campaign is over, but what it did to the Democrats and to the country remains.

We'll get to it with a standout roundtable here on your weekly news show.

Announcer: From Congress to the West Wing, he's been a Washington insider, now he's one of the Capitol's top journalists: Chris Matthews.

MATTHEWS: Hi, I'm Chris Matthews. Welcome to the show.

Profile: NBC's Campbell Brown, ABC's Sam Donaldson, Wall Street Journal's Peggy Noonan and Time magazine's Andrew Sullivan discuss Edwards vs. Kerry campaign, same-sex marriage, President Bush, and the New York Yankees

CHRIS MATTHEWS, host: Let's go inside. Campbell Brown is the co-host of NBC's "Weekend Today," and has been out there covering the Democrats. Sam Donaldson is a longtime ABC News correspondent. Peggy Noonan is a Wall Street Journal columnist, and Andrew Sullivan is senior editor of the New Republic and writes a column for Time magazine.

First up, the two-man fight. New York, Ohio and Georgia. John Edwards is making them the Super Tuesday battleground. Is Edwards big enough to win them? Here's what he says:

Senator JOHN EDWARDS: Objects in your mirror may be closer than they appear.

MATTHEWS: Sam, this guy, do you think he's got the stuff to make this fight?

Mr. SAM DONALDSON (ABC News): Well, jobs is a big issue and that's very important, but the big issue the Democrats really care about is electability. And so far, I think that's why they rejected Howard Dean. They decided at the end, `I don't think he can take George Bush.' They're on Kerry now. Edwards is going to have to demonstrate with something more than a smile and a shoeshine that he's got electability. And so far, I don't think he has.

MATTHEWS: OK, he's Willy Loman at best.

What do you think, Peggy? Do you think Edwards has the stuff to take on Kerry before he takes on Bush ?

Ms. PEGGY NOONAN (Wall Street Journal): Absolutely. I think he is go--I think Edwards is going to fight Kerry in three big states: I think my state, New York, I think probably Ohio, maybe Maryland. He is going to try to duke it out with free media. He is going to be in your face every day. I think he is in some ways a more compelling and attractive--not in a cheap sense, but in an interesting sense--candidate than Mr. Kerry. I think he can give him a real run for his money.

MATTHEWS: Campbell?

Ms. CAMPBELL BROWN (NBC News): Well, he has to win one of these big states to stay in it.

MATTHEWS: One?

Ms. BROWN: Well, I mean New York. Of the three,...

MATTHEWS: Right.

Ms. BROWN: ...yes. But he has to win a New York, a California--a big state, in order to prove electability, and from a number of standpoints. And right now, if you look at a state-wide poll that--recently done in New York, Kerry has a huge lead, the majority of people voting are in New York City. They're not in Buffalo or where Edwards is planning to campaign. And I don't think free media alone is going to do it. Somebody has got to write him a check and he's got to spend some money.

MATTHEWS: Andrew?

Mr. ANDREW SULLIVAN (New Republic Magazine): Yes.

MATTHEWS: Looking across the aisle to the left.

Mr. SULLIVAN: It's a no-lose proposition. The big surprise this year is the Democratic primary season has been really good for the Democrats.

MATTHEWS: The whole thing?

Mr. SULLIVAN: The whole thing has been fantastic for them.

MATTHEWS: Why do you think?

Mr. SULLIVAN: Well, partly because after the--after Iowa, they all decided they weren't all going to go negative.

MATTHEWS: Right.

Mr. SULLIVAN: So the usual damage that gets wrought upon the frontrunner has not happened. At the same time, they get all this free media, and Edwards is an incredibly charismatic figure. He has, by far, the best actual retail politician left...

MATTHEWS: Yeah.

Mr. SULLIVAN: ...in the--in the race. So...

MATTHEWS: So they'd be better off duking it out right to August...

Mr. SULLIVAN: Yeah.

MATTHEWS: ...with Sharpton and Kucinich and everybody aboard.

Ms. NOONAN: It's a nonstop commercial for the Democratic Party.

MATTHEWS: Well, let's take a look to prove that point...

Ms. NOONAN: It's fabulous.

MATTHEWS: ...Peggy. In fact, let's take a look at the--The Matthews Meter-- which has had mixed success--our 12 regulars looked at this two-man Democratic race. They say Kerry--well, this is precise--has a 47 percent chance of beating the president, George W. Bush. But they say John Edwards has only 1 percent less chance of beating Bush, a 46 percent chance. I'm going to say, Peggy, that that's amazing. Here's a guy we never--most of us never heard of a year ago now given almost a 50/50 shot at the president. That's John Edwards.

Ms. NOONAN: Well, yeah. Look, the Democrats are on their way up. They appear to be very dynamic now. The Republicans, George Bush's White House, have not really engaged yet, so Democrats in general will be looking pretty good. But I'm not surprised that Edwards is looking as good as Kerry. Kerry is someone we've known for 20, 25 years. He's had an entire adulthood in politics. There is a certain argument that he is tired.

MATTHEWS: Funny.

Ms. NOONAN: Maybe true, but tired. Edwards is young, dynamic...

Mr. DONALDSON: It doesn't matter.

Ms. NOONAN: ...charismatic, zoom.

Mr. DONALDSON: Peggy, it doesn't matter. I mean, it's all about the president. It's his re-election. And I think at this point, what you saw in that poll said that by Election Day, if he's still down, if he hasn't created jobs, if people still think Iraq is a disaster to the extent they do, either one of these Democrats can take him. And if in fact the president has improved himself, neither can. I think it's just simple.

Ms. BROWN: But--but the White House definitely has a preference on who they'd rather go up against.

MATTHEWS: Who's that?

Ms. BROWN: John Kerry.

MATTHEWS: Because he's a known factor?

Ms. BROWN: Because he has 6,500 votes he has to defend, because John Edwards doesn't have a record. All you can critique him with is his lack of experience. And then you respond by saying, `Well, what about George Bush's last--lack of experience and Bill Clinton's.'

MATTHEWS: Let's talk about the big city in here. Let's not jump ahead, as they say in sports, to the next game. The game coming up a week from Tuesday, Super Tuesday. Can Edwards defeat this big liberal guy from the Northeast in the Big Apple? And can he use--the second part of the question, Campbell, because you live out there--can he exploit this atmosphere of anger against big corporations--The Martha Stewart thing, the Enron arrests, the whole thing--to run a sort of populous campaign in the big city?

Ms. BROWN: I don't--I don't know that that matters as much as we may think it does. I think New Yorkers are thinking, like everybody else, about the economy and jobs. But you've got to get the message out. Edwards may have a better message on jobs, but it's still, you know--he's relying on free media and campaign stops.

Mr. SULLIVAN: But from the exit polls you also see that Edwards is doing much better among independents and Republicans and men. He is a much better candidate for the people the Democrats need in the fall, not in the primary season that in some...

MATTHEWS: Edwards is?

Mr. SULLIVAN: Edwards is. And...

MATTHEWS: He's a middle-class-jobs head. In fact, to make your point, Edwards is the little guy in from the country. If you take a look at what voters were saying in the Wisconsin primary, they said that jobs, as we all mostly agree, the most important issue coming up in November, and that John Edwards, the millworker's son, from South Carolina originally, then to North Carolina, is the better man to make that fight. By the way, I've never seen a worse picture than John Kerry. He looks like he just sold you the lemon, the bad car.

Sam, do you buy this argument that the nobody, the guy who never--the...(unintelligible), no-record, is a better guy to send into the fight against the president?

Mr. DONALDSON: No, I don't. I think the president at one point was a nobody nationally--Governor of Texas and all of that--but he's seasoned now. We're not going to see the same guy that showed up in the year 2000, in the year 2004. And I think you need a seasoned contender against him. Sure, Edwards doesn't have a large record, but I think it's easier than to paint him whatever you can, whatever you will. Kerry has to defend some votes.

MATTHEWS: Trial lawyer.

Mr. DONALDSON: Yeah. Kerry has to defend some votes, but at least he's got the experience to defend it. Look how he came from behind so far in Iowa and other states. This guy is just not a cream puff.

MATTHEWS: Yeah.

Ms. NOONAN: You know what I think has a little power here for Edwards, Edwards is optimistic and funny. He talks about rich and poor but not in a way that is aggressive and is anti-rich or anti-poor.

Mr. DONALDSON: He's not Ronald Reagan.

Ms. NOONAN: Well, of course, I'm not saying he is.

Mr. DONALDSON: But you were painting Ronald Reagan.

Ms. NOONAN: No, I'm painting...

Mr. DONALDSON: Optimistic, sunny.

Ms. NOONAN: OK, fine. Yes, he is. What I'm trying to say, Sam, is that Kerry takes a more aggressive Bob Schrum, non-DLC, rich vs. poor, `We'll kill the rich, we'll tax them.' Edwards is an--Edwards is not there. Edwards is more benign, more, `We have problems...'

Mr. SULLIVAN: It's actually worse than that.

Ms. NOONAN: ...`and--and we can deal with it.'

Mr. SULLIVAN: Because Kerry says all that thing and--those things, and no one believes him.

Ms. NOONAN: Well, yeah.

Mr. SULLIVAN: Everyone perceives that it's fake, that it's phony.

Ms. NOONAN: That it's phony...

Mr. SULLIVAN: He took it out of Bob Schrum's...

Ms. NOONAN: ...rhetorical...

Mr. SULLIVAN: ...memo.

Ms. NOONAN: ...populism.

Mr. SULLIVAN: And he's spewing the stuff, sitting there tell...

MATTHEWS: Bob Schrum, by the way, is a longtime advisor to pres--to Senator Ted Kennedy. He's a liberal.

Ms. NOONAN: And a speech writer.

Mr. DONALDSON: And for every other Democrat.

Ms. NOONAN: And he's got--and he's got Kerry sounding like Al Gore in 2000.

MATTHEWS: So you think--I wonder if you guys aren't rooting for the guy you know isn't going to win the nomination so that you can say, `If they'd only run Edwards, then I would have maybe thought about it.'

Ms. NOONAN: Well, I'll tell you, we like...

Mr. SULLIVAN: No, we're rooting for him because we love the story. We don't want this campaign to be over yet.

Ms. NOONAN: Yes, yes.

MATTHEWS: OK, look, here's why the Democrats see there's an opening on jobs. This is worth thinking about. George Bush's polls are at their lowest right now--of course, no surprise there--on how Americans think he's handled the economy. It started out low when he came in, then he spiked very high on every topic after 9/11 in 2001. And now he's down to a pretty low-level number.

Now, here's my concern if I were a Democrat. My concern would be that the economy is getting better, that the stock market is rolling along, that we're going to have good growth numbers in the summer and you're going to be able to go to the people, if you're the president, and say, `Look, ladies and gentlemen, I know there's some pain out there, in the Midwest especially, but things are getting better. Don't go back to this protectionist stuff that's going to cost us jobs in the long run.'

Ms. BROWN: It--it doesn't matter because if you look at how divided the country is, and you're playing the numbers game, what the Bush campaign is talking about is Ohio being the new Florida, Ohio being Florida in this campaign. Ohio, one of the states that has suffered...

MATTHEWS: What decides this?

Ms. BROWN: Jobs, manufacturing jobs. And while the economy may be picking up around the rest of the country, those places like Ohio, like Pennsylvania, are still going to be suffering.

Mr. DONALDSON: And wisely, the Bush human has come off the Bush paper, which said 2.6 million jobs...

MATTHEWS: Yeah, wasn't that a big mistake?

Mr. DONALDSON: Oh, it was stupid.

MATTHEWS: The promise: 2.6 million jobs.

Mr. DONALDSON: It was just ridiculous.

MATTHEWS: And no, you really can't come--come in with any kind of near those numbers.

Mr. DONALDSON: All the economists are defending the chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors.

Ms. BROWN: It's a mess-up.

MATTHEWS: It's a mess?

Ms. NOONAN: It was a mess-up.

Mr. DONALDSON: All the economists are defending him, but the politicians know that to make a statement like that is stupid: offshore, create jobs...

Mr. SULLIVAN: It's not just stupid, it is so basically stupid that people are wondering what is going on with this White House?

Ms. NOONAN: In terms of communications.

Mr. SULLIVAN: The amount of flubs...

MATTHEWS: Right.

Mr. SULLIVAN: ...the amount of missteps, the amount of communication errors is just mounting.

MATTHEWS: Let's go meet the press one more time and make some more promises we can't meet on.

Anyway, just kidding. I'll be right back to talk about what's happening in San Francisco. Three thousand same-sex couples just got marriage licenses.

Plus, those damn Yankees. Is the name of the game baseball or Monopoly? Stick around.

MATTHEWS: February wre--weddings in 'Frisco and a huge pay surge for A-Rod. Stick with us, we'll be right back.

President GEORGE W. BUSH: I strongly believe that marriage should be defined as between a man and a woman. I have watched carefully what's happened in San Francisco where licenses were being issued even though the law states otherwise.

MATTHEWS: Welcome back. That was President Bush this week showing no relish for the subject of same-sex marriage. And word is also out this week that Evangelicals are not happy with how he's handling this issue--or not handling it.

Peggy, is this an issue that the president, other things being equal, would rather not be talking about?

Ms. NOONAN: I think this is all very delicate for the president. First of all, he has gone on the record saying he wants marriage between a man and a woman. He doesn't want anything changed. But you can tell that this is not a subject that he loves. However, Republicans on the Hill and throughout the country are waiting for him to take a leadership, argumentative, `Let's talk about this'--not argumentative...

MATTHEWS: But is he going to push...

Ms. NOONAN: ...but arguing for it.

MATTHEWS: ...a constitutional amendment?

Ms. NOONAN: All right, this is thing. I think that he is and I think he will do it through a speech and he will sit down and he will talk to you--walk you all the way through his thinking on this and the general conservative thinking on it. But I think he--I have a feeling with the president that he's held back by this: 1992, the Republican Convention, a convention that the myth about it is it was about values and it was saying this and this. Republicans got tarred forever. Bush saw his father get tarred on these issues, whether fairly or not.

Ms. BROWN: Yes.

MATTHEWS: Right.

Ms. NOONAN: And I think he hates to deal with issues like this, but he has got to take a leadership position, I believe, and go forward...

Mr. SULLIVAN: Definiti...

Ms. NOONAN: ...and take his stance.

Mr. DONALDSON: He's also got to get re-elected. And no matter how he feels--we know how he feels--he understands that there's a movement out there...

MATTHEWS: How do you know how he feels?

Mr. DONALDSON: Because he said it.

Ms. NOONAN: Well, he has said it a few times.

Mr. DONALDSON: One man, one woman. That's how he feels.

MATTHEWS: Yeah, but what are his sentiments on it?

Mr. DONALDSON: But there's a movement on it. All right, Richard Daley in Chicago said, `Well, it's OK with me if it happens here in Cook County.' I'll give you one better. The mayor of Salt Lake City--a place not known in its Mormon heritage for being left wing--says, `Yeah, it's fine here as far as I'm concerned.' And in Sandoval County, New Mexico, the county clerk is this moment issuing licenses.

Ms. BROWN: Yeah, but that doesn't matter.

MATTHEWS: Maybe they want to open up that other issue, polygamy, out there, too.

Ms. BROWN: That doesn't matter. That...

MATTHEWS: That's another hot one. Let's go here.

Ms. BROWN: That's not who--you can say there's a movement out there and Bush needs to get on board, but he--he--Karl Rove is far more worried about targeting Evangelicals and making sure they show up and vote, than he is about the more moderate voters.

Mr. DONALDSON: You know, Campbell, I've heard everyone say this...

Ms. NOONAN: And is really, this is a big social issue.

Mr. DONALDSON: ...that he's got to solidify his base. His base isn't going anywhere, so they said, yeah, but they might stay home.

MATTHEWS: Does anybody here...

Ms. BROWN: Yeah, but they didn't come out...

MATTHEWS: ...have a strong personal view on this?

Ms. BROWN: ...and vote last time.

Mr. DONALDSON: The base isn't going to stay home.

Ms. BROWN: They have to this time.

MATTHEWS: Does anybody have a strong personal view on this, yes or not, to make this legal? Gay marriage?

Mr. SULLIVAN: Yes.

Ms. NOONAN: To make it legal? Yes, Andrew does.

MATTHEWS: I knew you would. I'm teasing, Andrew. Andrew, you wrote a beautiful column in Time magazine this week about--advocating the cause, the sentiment, the feeling of those who want to seek gay marriage. What is it?

Mr. SULLIVAN: Well, I'd like to be a political pundit, but this is my life.

MATTHEWS: Yeah.

Mr. SULLIVAN: This is--I have a boyfriend, I come from a traditional Catholic conservative family. I was always brought up to believe the happiest day of your life will be the time you meet the person you want to love and marry. And my whole family would celebrate it and my society would celebrate it. And when I figured out that I was gay growing up, I realized that will never happen to me. And a whole group of people in society are told, `You will never have that day, you do not belong in your own family, you do not belong in your own society.' And that's enormously painful for a lot of people. And you could bring those people back into the families they belong to and the country they belong to without harming anyone. And--and that's what this is about. I can't be objective.

MATTHEWS: Is it the role of the state or the government, generally, to celebrate or to recognize that kind of union? Is that the role of the state?

Mr. SULLIVAN: If it recognizes my sister's wedding and marriage, then it should recognize mine. I don't think I'm any less than my sister. I don't think...

MATTHEWS: But should it be an issue...

Mr. SULLIVAN: I don't think gay people's relationships are inferior to straight people's relationships.

MATTHEWS: Is that debatable for you? Is that something that should come up in an election in California, in New York or Philadelphia or wherever, or should it be a matter of rights, like separate-but-equal is with education?

Mr. SULLIVAN: It's about human dignity. The right to marry is in the human sphere what the right to vote is in the political sphere.

MATTHEWS: So we shouldn't be debating this or have votes of it in various states.

Mr. SULLIVAN: No, we should because people are anguished and they need to talk about this. We shouldn't shut the debate down.

MATTHEWS: But should it be up to the courts?

Mr. SULLIVAN: Ultimately, maybe, because sometimes these basic issues of human rights have to be. But it's my duty and responsibility to try and persuade people that this is the right thing to do. And--and...

MATTHEWS: OK.

Mr. DONALDSON: Well, what I can't figure out is why people think that if Andrew and his partner get married, it will debauch the country. They may disagree with your view, but the argument is always either that God has somehow decreed something opposite, or that the whole country will then fall into...

MATTHEWS: No.

Mr. DONALDSON: ...line in that way.

MATTHEWS: I can--I'm going to give--let me give you a middle case.

Mr. DONALDSON: And I don't understand that.

MATTHEWS: Let me give you a middle case. It's like a lot of things like paying for abortion. A lot of people say, `You should have a right to an abortion,' but people like me might be troubled with `I don't want the state paying for it.' Now, just a minute, they might say it's all right for people to have homosexual relations, gay relations, that's fine, but, `Don't ask me to celebrate. Don't bring me into this.' And when you ask the state to ratify these relationships...

Mr. DONALDSON: Andrew's not going to invite us all to his wedding.

MATTHEWS: No, no.

Mr. DONALDSON: I mean, what are we celebrating?

MATTHEWS: I'm saying, the question here and the reason we have a democracy and argue these things out is a lot of people say, `That's fine. Live and let live. But don't ask me to celebrate it or recognize it'...

Mr. DONALDSON: They're not saying `live and let live,' though.

MATTHEWS: ...`because I don't want to do it.'

Mr. SULLIVAN: We're told that divorce is impermissible.

MATTHEWS: Right.

Mr. SULLIVAN: We're not supposed to celebrate it. But as a matter of civil law, there is civil divorce. And as Catholics, we acknowledge the right of people who don't share our religion to have that right. It's the same thing here. It's not marriage, it is civil marriage. It isn't about religion, it's about marriage licenses given by the state. And all these state constitutions simply say, equality under the law. You can't get around it. States cannot discriminate. That's the issue.

MATTHEWS: Well, we'll see, won't we?

Mr. DONALDSON: We will.

MATTHEWS: Because this is going to be debated in every state.

Mr. DONALDSON: The Supreme Court will have the last word in the Defense of Marriage Act and ultimately, if there is a constitutional amendment that gets to the states for three-fourths ratification, the people will have the last word.

MATTHEWS: My view is the pictures we saw from San Francisco, and we just saw on the show, were far less threatening culturally than would seem to be the prospect of this, the specter of it for some people. And I think ironically, the pictures of those happy couples coming from city hall in San Francisco are an advertisement for what can be done in this country.

Mr. SULLIVAN: In Massachusetts, people will be married in a couple of months. Then there will be a time for the voters of Massachusetts to decide whether they want to amend their constitution. Leave that state alone to do what it needs to do.

MATTHEWS: OK.

Mr. SULLIVAN: There is the answer.

MATTHEWS: I got to change--I got to change the topics for the more macho guys watching the show right now. And that's this A-Rod thing in New York.

You live up in New York, Peggy.

Ms. NOONAN: Yeah.

MATTHEWS: You're a baseball nut. You live in Brooklyn.

Ms. NOONAN: Yes.

MATTHEWS: This fact that--it used to be baseball was for regular-sized people like most of us here, not big galoots or giraffes like in basketball or in football,...

Ms. NOONAN: Yes.

MATTHEWS: ...but a guy who weighs 150 pounds and can hit a ball and move fast. It was for everybody. Then a clau...

Ms. NOONAN: He's normal, not a giant.

MATTHEWS: Then when we had the reserve clause, it was equal playing for the level of play out there. As long as this guy George Steinbrenner in New York, celebrated in "Seinfeld" and "Apprentice" and everywhere else, has the loot to go out there and buy anybody that's hitting home runs, is it still a fair game?

Ms. NOONAN: Is it still a fair game...

MATTHEWS: Yeah.

Ms. NOONAN: ...to buy people to work on your...

MATTHEWS: Rodriguez, this week.

Ms. NOONAN: To buy every sport?

MATTHEWS: He just bought him for 47 home runs. He bought the guy.

Ms. NOONAN: Yeah. And New York's been buying people to play ball for them for a long time. Is it fair? I would think there's an unconscious sense in New York. We never mention it. We're so glad we've got the winners, we're glad we've got the stars. We don't love paying $50 for a...

MATTHEWS: Hot dog.

Ms. NOONAN: ...hot dog at the ball park to pay for it, but also some part of us knows, `We did buy it. But you know what, we want to win and it's OK.'

MATTHEWS: Oh, isn't it wonderful in New York.

Anyway, Campbell, tell me something I don't know.

Ms. BROWN: Possibly, the Heinz family and the Heinz family fortune will come under much greater scrutiny as the campaign heats up and gets a lot uglier.

Ms. NOONAN: Ooh.

MATTHEWS: Ooh.

Sam Donaldson:

Mr. DONALDSON: The secretary of state says that we're not going to interfere in Haiti and try to remove Aristide. He was the elected guy. But if the rebellion continues, guess what? We're going to be happy to see Aristide go.

MATTHEWS: Peggy:

Ms. NOONAN: The controversial, quote/unquote, movie "The Passion" is going to open Wednesday. It's not going to open on 2500 screens but probably 4,000 or more. I have a feeling it might be the biggest opening day in history.

MATTHEWS: Will the reaction be less threatening and less disturbing to people than the talk before it?

Ms. NOONAN: Yeah, it's going to be an odd thing. It's like a horrible argument that gets to a point where the argument is settled and then peace breaks out.

MATTHEWS: We're not going to talk about it ...

Ms. NOONAN: I think once--once this movie comes out, it's going to be very peaceful and very quiet.

MATTHEWS: Once most people, in fact, everybody in this panel has seen the movie, we'll talk about it. That's when we're going to get to it on this show.

Andrew:

Mr. SULLIVAN: I think...

MATTHEWS: Tell me something I don't know.

Mr. SULLIVAN: ...the president will endorse the constitutional amendment, but he will also say that he wants civil unions for gay people, which will alienate the religious right.

MATTHEWS: So try to get it down the middle.

Mr. SULLIVAN: And he will lose both sides.

MATTHEWS: There's no middle.

Mr. SULLIVAN: There is no middle. He will lose both sides.

MATTHEWS: You taught me that in your column. There is no middle, for marriage or nothing.

Anyway, thanks to this great group: Campbell Brown, Sam Donaldson, Peggy Noonan and Andrew Sullivan. I'll be right back to talk about why I love mavericks like this guy. (Clip of Howard Dean campaigning) Be right back.

Commentary: Howard Dean, a new American maverick

CHRIS MATTHEWS, host: As I've said before on this show, the greatest thing about politics--being in it, covering it, caring about it--is to be out there all alone, then some day be proven right. Maybe I'm a maverick and maverick-lover by nature. I find that there's nothing so ennobling as the leader who risks all to stand for what he or she believes, to speak out when it seems everybody in the world is saying, `You're wrong. Go away. Shut up. Give up.' Say this for Howard Dean, the five-time governor of Vermont, he took a stand that the occupation of Iraq was wrong with American history and wrong with--for America's future. He asked Americans to say so.

Former Governor HOWARD DEAN: You have that power. You have the power! You have the power!

MATTHEWS: I know a lot of people disagree with Dean's tough position, but somewhat smaller numbers still do. They had their say; he's gone from the race. The people I want to talk to here and now are those whose hearts once soared at the very notion of this man, this former governor from one of the original 13 colonies, showing all the passion and ideals of an early American revolutionary, a real Green Mountain boy come out of the Vermont hills to fight the good fight. To those who joined Dean's rebel cause, I salute you. From the time of Samuel Adams and Thomas Paine and, yes, John Brown, and Martin Luther King, the people who have moved this country have not been those marching to the American band, but those gutsy few out ahead. You Dean kids of all ages can now take your place in that proud tradition. You can tell you kids that you were with Dean.

Sign-off: The Chris Matthews Show